I "vociferously" reject Frogman's comments. Ask yourself; "Why did the millions of people who owned record players and records before CD go exclusively to CD?"
The answer is quite simple; CD's sound much better than records played on even good "mid-fi" rigs. There is no magic on a vinyl record without a "Hi-end" analog rig.
Why didn't the millions of people, including myself, hear this magic in the records as compared to CD when CD came out; after all, we had been listening to records for all of our lives; why didn't we hear the magic as compared to CD's? Let me give you the answer to that question.
It's because we we're not into "hi-end" analog. My cartridge, which is rated Class "B" by Stereophile; costs more than a Class "A" CD player, and you're good to go with the CD player, while you still have to purchase more good stuff to go with my Class "B" cartridge in order to hear music.
I had been listening to records for my entire life; why didn't I hear this magic of the vinyl LP before I got into the "Hi-end"?
"You have to run with the big dogs or stay at home"; anything short of that is a waste of time and money.
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Reality is whatever the majority on this forum say it is, unless you are a realist.
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I lived with Snap, Crackle, and Pop, all the way up to the advent of CD, 40 years later.
Wow, no Snap, Crackle and Pop; these CD's are amazing. Later on, some guy who was into the high end, said "What's the big deal"?
He didn't tell me that his cartridge cost as much as my entire rig; consequently, there was no big deal, the big deal was on the high end analog rig, but you had to be able to pay the cost in order to be the boss.
Today, we have convoluted cheap Snap, Crackle and Pop record players with the sound of "high-end" analog rigs in such a way that the "newbees" think they're going to get the "vinyl magic" out of one of the cheap Snap, Crackle and Pop rigs; it ain't going to happen. Almost any CD player will sound better than a cheap record player. Why didn't I hear all this "vinyl magic" 40 years ago before I got into the high end, and before CD?
The answer is quite simple; without high-end components, there is no magic. Anyone buying cheap analog is wasting their money.
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Reel to reel is not as expensive as you might think. While I only recommend new TT and Cartridge; a good used reel that has been refurbished can be as good as new.
Believe it or not, when you guys who like to "stream", record that music on a 2 track reel, you will have some of the best "analog" you have ever heard when you play it back.
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mrpostfire, you don't have enough money for what you seek, and that is the "vinyl mystique" many of us are enjoying. I've read the recommendations, and if you followed them, you would be buying someone else's junk, without sufficient knowledge to put it together.
I recommend that you start an analog savings account, and gather more information in the meantime.
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A few years ago, serious and learned audiophiles had a debate as to what price point that analog exceeded digital, and we arrived at 3K. Since that was a few years ago, it must be at 4K now.
Once money is spent, it can not be "un-spent". When someone who doesn't know about analog, but wants some serious sound, why recommend something that will not even get them there halfway?
Freediver, is that the cost of your rig $250. ?
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I have been listening to records since I was born (over 70 years ago), and then CD's came along; good bye, and good riddance noisy records.
Now records have been re-discovered. No, what has been discovered is records + high end audio. Records without high end audio is still a "no go" for me. None of the people I know, are about to pay the cost of high end analog to hear their records in the fashion being discussed, which means they only play CD's.
Now, according to some, all you have to do is dust off those old record players, and you're in business. Anybody who was around the first time knows that's a lie; the average CD player will leave those old record players in the dust.
Why you are trying to entice young people who don't know, into believing there is something special about an LP without expensive analog gear is beyond me.
Oh, I know, I just can't hear what's special about the LP; I couldn't hear it then, and I can't hear it now; not without expensive high end gear.
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Larry,it's quite apparent that you know next to nothing about "high end analog"; no audiophile would even consider the ridiculous stuff you are proposing; however, there is no question in regard to the superiority of analog over CD, even when one can't hear to well.
My contention is the fact that the price point at which this superiority occurs is not made plain, and some one with only 1K should accumulate more funds before they take the leap, otherwise they will blow the 1K and not reap the benefits.
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What's with this "analog sound"; millions of people threw their "crappy" turntables on the junk heap and never looked back; a cheap crappy record player, and a record of any kind will give you crappy sound that every body gave up when they got a CD player. Personally, I'm not paying money for someone else's junk; there is way too much that can cause a TT not to be up to specs to chance a used one when you can get a new guaranteed one. This stuff is rated by class in "Stereophile", and if you want better than a good CD player, you got to go to class "B"; otherwise you get something no better than a good CD player, and I'm sure you already have that. The cheapest tables with arm come in at 3K. Cartridges come in at 1K, phono pre at less than 1K if MM with tubes preferably; total 5K. You can find ways to chisel 1K off the total, and still come out right. Or, you can go to Crutchfield, and get everything for $399. https://www.crutchfield.com/shopsearch/turntable.html |
I know what my problem is; "Nobody passed me the bong"; that's what it takes to get this romantic involvement with the "old-school" records and record players, that they now refer to as "Analog"; which said record players could be had for $200. new. Frogman, "Do I get more enjoyment out of it than my digital sources? Yes! *" BTW, Frogman has a TNT6 plus ET2 tonearm. https://www.vpiindustries.com/tnt6 https://www.stereophile.com/content/eminent-technology-two-tonearm Frogman says, "* ....more than anything else I get more involved in listening to records than digital sources ****" I wonder why? |
There is no argument Frogman, you're listening to Class "A" analog while recommending no class analog for someone else.
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Frogman, I've been listening to nothing but brand new LP's for days; old music, but new LP's; it really takes big strong fingers to pluck fat bass fiddle strings, and Mingus has them. I'm listening to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0A_Ik6TTn0It's so amazing how well this can be heard on a new LP. My contention in regard to vinyl has always been the same; I deplore the misleading assertions that the sound audiophiles are raving about can be had for next to nothing, and those old record players that were common in the 70's can deliver. They deliver now, what they delivered then, which is why everyone threw them on the trash, and bought a CD player. I realize how you have to wade through a "hodge podge" of statements in order to read mine, and how it's all so confusing, which is why you don't see the consistency in my statements, but I hate for people to waste money and be disappointed, which is something they're going to do if they believe there is something magically inherent in a vinyl record. |
Tonight, I discovered "ultimate analog"; that's what I call it, because it was too compelling to quit listening to, and I never found words to describe it.
Never do I record CD's or LP's at 15 IPS because it's too expensive. Tonight, I found a box of tape on 10 inch plastic reels, it was tape that had been recorded over and erased, therefore can be purchased very cheaply. I had made recordings on this tape at 15 IPS and forgotten about it. While the music came through, the first reel was noisy, but the music came through over the noise. There were 10, 10 inch reels, so I still had a lot of tape to go.
The second reel wasn't noisy, and from the audio, I deduced that I had recorded LP's because of the way the music drew me in, but there was no record noise or "tell tale clicks" that are a dead give away for LP's.
The music was so compelling, that I quit all analytical listening and just went with the flow. First, let us define what music is, it's a part of you; you're inner being, that most personal of selves. It is the most important record of your life, because it celebrates the high times and the low times. When you experience instant recall of those times and places, that is invoked or excited by the music, to the extent that you can visualize the experiences, and even re-live the emotions; that is because the music has resonated your subconscious memory. This was the first time I had heard music that compelling. I listened to one reel after another; going back 50 years in time, seeing the people, events, and experiencing the emotions that made those times.
I played one reel after another till almost day; that is when I began to analyze what had transpired. The terms we use to separate CD's and LP's by calling one digital, and the other analog, had been fused to create one compelling "super audio"; music with the emotion of analog, but minus the pops, clicks, and noise; that was music from CD's that had been recorded to magnetic tape at 15 IPS, and played back; you do the analyzing.
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noromance, that just shows you're not dedicated enough. I don't know how many times I replaced some of those same recordings for that very same reason. Vinyl attracts pops and ticks like dogs attract fleas; they go with the territory.
Happy listening.
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Start out "new", there are too many bad things that can happen used.
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Mrpostfire, I'm over 70, I had vinyl until CD's came out, and I have no idea what the "vinyl experience" is about; without a high end analog rig it was "crap" and good riddance. However, it's entering a new dimension in music with a top flight rig. What you don't want to do is waste money by buying something cheap. This is a long term investment; musical pleasure for the rest of your life. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/luxman-aims-reach-more-vinyl-enthusiasts-new-high-end-turntab...That looked like something you could live with, I believe I could. The best thing about new, is the possibility that you might be able to try before you buy; this TT business is very competitive. In regard to a cartridge, I recommend that you get one in the vicinity of 1K; like ice cream, they come in different flavors, but more or less the same quality in said price range. The best way to choose a cartridge without auditioning it, is to carefully read the reviews, and read as many as possible. Pay close attention to the music, the reviewer is using; if he uses music that is compatible with your tastes, and gives that music glowing reviews, you've got a match. It ain't easy being an audiophile, but the rewards are tremendous. |
Look at all of your new options and see if one of them will give you a rig on a trial basis that you can return.
I had a similar problem with pre-amps, and I managed to borrow some before I decided on a tube CJ. |
