They are big and heavy. You almost need a way to secure them. My amp sits low enough to the ground that the cable sort of props itself up. |
Geoffkait, you are correct in that energy is transferred through the electron’s electric field however the electrons do react and move against the current a slight amount before changing directions again and again. In any case, photons have momentum even though they have no mass. |
Roberjerman, have you tried any power cables? I recommend you go buy two Pangea AC9 SE MKII power cables (1.5m) and put them on your amp and CD player. You can return them if you don’t hear any improvement and it will only cost you the price of shipping. Be warned, after hearing it you won’t want to return them. |
Thanks, ghosthouse. Some interesting info there.
Roberjerman, when an amplifier drives a loudspeaker, doesn’t the voltage in the secondary winding of the transformer drop, which leads to a current in the primary winding?
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@stereo5 That was not my experience. It did tame what sounded like overly bright treble so maybe in your system the effect was too much if you were already happy with your treble. I would like to try Shunyata some day but I’m quite happy for now. |
... props itself up off the ground. I know I committed an audiophile crime. 😃 |
And someone asked me why I said “please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism.” 😂🤣😅 |
All cables have a resistance, an inductance and a capacitance. Can these three physical quantities account for ALL of the differences in sound that power cables provide? I'm sure fancy multi stranded power cables have different R, L and C values compared to romex or generic power cables. |
@tobor007 I like your idea. Now we just need to find a vendor who will let 10 people “steal” their system for an afternoon. Haha!
One of my concerns with “on the spot” listening tests is that I need time to learn a specific system’s sound first. I can pick up on very subtle changes with my system because I am very acquainted with it. If I go to someone else’s house, I would not fare so well because I am not very acquainted with the “baseline” sound. Give me enough time, which could be hours or days and I would do much better on listening tests. What I am alluding to is that if we show up at an audio show with an unfamiliar system, we could all fail a listening test and there could still be differences between cables that we miss because we aren’t familiar with the “baseline” sound. |
@jea48 haha! It did not happen, but we tried.
@djones51 I’ve heard that a power cable needs to be at least a minimum length to have a good effect, say 5’ or more. I don’t understand why but it makes sense to me that there would be a shortest length which has an effect. I don’t think a 1/8” long power cable will do much good.
@geoffkait I agree it can’t all be psychological bias. I have too many personal experiences that tell me something else is going on (in many instances). I remember when I was exploring different speaker wire gauges, dielectrics, and geometries. Many times I hooked up the cables and expected a positive improvement and got it. Then I hooked up a cable that I was so confident would be the best yet and I hooked it up and it sucked the life out of the treble. Still convinced I had a good cable, I tried it again and again at different times of the day, in different moods, and after some burn-in and even after trying to trick myself that it was better sounding - it just wasn’t. I ripped it out and went back to my original cables. In no subtle manner, the sound was back to enjoyable with lively treble. There is a zero percent chance that what I experienced was “all in my head.” |
@stevecham I think you may be on to something. However when I think of noise, I think of background hum or hiss. Does this noise you speak of go further than a veil over the music and the reduction of it makes the treble less harsh, improve the slam of the music and make things more dynamic and musical - the things I have experienced with better power cords. Also note, I am fortunate in that my listening environment is quite free of RF noise pollution and the like. I use a number of RCA cables that have no shielding and I’ve never picked up noise through them. |
And the money spent has really no sane connection with reality. I don’t disagree with you on that. Cost doesn’t necessarily correlate with performance. You don’t need to spend $20,000 on a power cable. I think that’s where the industry gets a bad name, especially when the manufacturer doesn’t provide any technical specs but just says “trust us.” I think it’s more so about gauge, geometry and material which can cost a few bucks. If you go try to make an RCA interconnect with high quality connectors, silver wire, good shielding, etc you may end up with a bill for $200. In that case I have no issues with a cable company charging $250-$300 for that cable if the material, labor and markup are justifiable. |
So far I haven't heard any compelling explanation. Lots of experts and savants with different opinions but no plausible reason for the perceived effect. I hadn’t either which is why I started the thread. Just so we’re on the same page, just because there is no plausible explanation doesn’t mean the effect doesn’t exist. That would be like saying “I don’t believe the sky is blue until we understand why it could be blue,” which is what I hear a lot of cable-naysayers saying. 😅 |
cables are the ultimate sucker buy. @2010challenger I want that to be the case. I really do. Let me share my experience with you that led me to this crazy path: On the advice of an internet forum, I changed my generic, cheapo stranded core speaker cables to generic, cheapo solid core speaker cables and appreciated the change in sound - particularly the increase in treble detail. Cost to me: a few bucks. After hearing that, I wondered what solid core RCA cables would do to the sound. I considered building my own but opted to spend around $60 for a pair of well-shielded, solidly-build solid core RCA cables that got 5 star reviews. I heard a significant improvement and I liked what it did to the sound. At this point, I was actually upset because I came to know that cables matter. I didn’t want to spend money on cables. I didn’t want them to matter, but they do for better or worse. After my speaker cable and interconnect escapade, I read many 5 star reviews on a power cable made by the same company as my interconnects. The interconnect reviews were accurate which made me put some trust in the power cable reviews. I figured the worst that could happen is that they wouldn’t do anything and I could return them for the cost of shipping. I recieved the garden hose, err, I mean, power cable in the mail and put them on my amplifier... the improvement was unmistakeable. Did my system sound good before the power cable? Yes. Did it sound better after the cable. Absolutely! So here I am questioning how in the hell a cable that isn’t even in the signal chain improves the sound and watching as forum members take snipes at each other akin to religious furor, thinking “what have I gotten myself into?” Happy listening! |
The paradox is that at some level we are talking about a technical phenomenon with no good technical explanation. That is yet another reason to question the effect. Indeed, it is a reason to question the phenomenon. It is also a reason to keep investigating if you believe something is going on as many believe to be the case. I’m surprised this is still a big question mark? Why hasn’t this been solved yet? I keep getting drawn back to the 3 basic properties of wires: resistance, inductance and capacitance. Can these three alone not explain the effect fully? I’m guessing not because if it were that simple, then surely someone would have shown it to be the case already - perhaps a cable manufacturer. This would be a very simple test one could do at home with some test equipment: relate R, L and C to the “sound” of power cables. Assuming the phenomenon can’t be fully explained by the values of resistance, inductance and capacitance, I’m left to wonder if we are measuring the right properties. Are there other properties that need measurement? Do any of the R, L and C values change dynamically along with electron flow or are they fixed at all times? |
Why is it that almost every single time someone mentions "better powercord" the argument against it is "one costing thousand of dollars" when it is not the case? It’s a type of logical fallacy called a “straw man.” In effect, they set up an argument that is supposed to encompass the opposition opinion but is actually distorted or exaggerated making it easy to “knock down” or refute and then they strut around like they won the argument. Some may not even know they are doing it. |
Yet if your claim is at all challenged with reasonable questions you get so incensed as to insult the questioner as “having problems.”
Are we supposed to simply sit down, shut up and accept anything nonoise claims as The Truth without possibly questioning it?
If not...why does questioning your claims cause you to insult the questioner? I think nonoise is getting upset with you because you are denying his very reality without having any experience with it via sitting in a arm chair 500 miles away removed from his situation and then going on to cite how fallable the mind is: it’s borderline insulting. If you are implying cables cannot affect sound, then I can only ask you to open your mind and seek out experiences. I’ve shared my experiences. I was in the doubtful camp and did not want to spend money on cables to get the most out of my system. I still want to resist them but I have come to know that they have their time and place and shouldn’t be overlooked if one is interested in extracting the most out of your system. I don’t know how they work, either, but that is the first step in scientific inquiry: make an observation. From there you ask questions, hence the reason I started this thread. |
@prof It’s really no different than if an experienced bird watcher said they saw a specific bird in their backyard and you went on and on about how they don’t migrate this far north and how fallable the mind is. If it was a little kid, maybe it would be more acceptable. But someone who has years of experience, to start with a discussion of how easily the mind is fooled is a subtle way of saying, “You’re wrong, you’re delusional, and I know more than you.” It’s a bit confrontational. |
I’m also curious to know how the naysayers listen to their systems. Do they sit directly in front of the speakers for hours on end doing nothing but listening to the music in a sound treated room with a quiet mind and focused intention? Or is it just on in the background as they go about their day. If given the latter, I would be in the naysayer camp. No way I could pick up on subtleties of cables from across the room while doing dishes - at least I don’t think I could. |
@prof No offense taken. It’s probably a good thing to be reminded here and there of the subjective and sometimes fallable nature of human perception. Perhaps I was being overly sensitive, but I interpreted your remarks on human listening error as “there’s no way you can hear a sound change with a power cable and if you think you did, you’re wrong,” which is a bold statement to make given there are many different types of cables, types of systems, listening rooms, and listeners. The combination is nearly endless which probably plays a role in why some people hear it and some people don’t. Don’t get me wrong - I’m sure I have been “fooled” by my own ears here and there, but I have two examples (the power cord and a speaker wire example) where I’m confident I’m not being fooled - the sound did change, for better in one example and for worse in the other.
It sounds like you are listening the “right way.” 😃 Good point on the lights. A low light level is more enjoyable! |
Going off of geoff’s list and adding some of the other views expressed here, here are SOME of the hypotheses for how a power cable COULD affect sound:
1. Purity of conductors
2. Conductivity of conductors
3. Dielectric properties of insulation
4. Solid vs stranded core conductors
5. Shielding
6. Plugs (e.g., better conductors, tighter connections)
7. “Directionality” of wire
8. Single crystal conductors
9. The polishing of solid core wires
10. Cryogenic treatments
11. Conductor gauge
12. Dielectric bias systems
13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable.
14. The physical 3D shape of the “signal” through the cable.
Let me know if I forgot anything that was mentioned or if you have something to add to the list. Everybody take a number and go conduct rigorous experiments and report back. 🤣 |
Whoa! What? I did not know there were high, medium and low frequencies traveling through the power cord. I was under the impression it was current and voltage, alternating at 60 Hz. That’s why we are having the conversation. Maybe I’m not understanding how power is delivered to the primary side of the transformer via the power cable. I figured a treble note and a bass note would produce different AC waveforms in the power cable. But perhaps I’m looking at it wrong. |
What do you mean by conditioning? |
OP You installed the upgraded power cable on your CD player and you heard an improvement in SQ. You did not say you "I think I heard" or "its my opinion that it sounded better". It sounded better. Period. Yeah, it wasn’t subtle at all and I wasn’t expecting it either. I think sometimes as audiophiles we can get all excited over a new component and sometimes hear things that aren’t there because we expect there to be an improvement. This was not one of those times. Don’t let anyone push you off the fact that you can hear a change in your system. Don’t worry about that, I’m too far down the rabbit hole. Save yourself! After hearing the change in sound when I swapped from stranded core to solid core speaker cables, my curiosity was peaked. After that was experiencing differences in RCA cables. Then power cords. I remember when I first heard these differences, I had mixed emotions. I was happy to learn that you can tweak sound with cables but saddened because I knew if I wanted to get the most out of my system I would have to spend a lot of time (and some money) to figure out what worked best in my system. In hindsight it has been a fun, rewarding pursuit. I don’t think power cables should be as mysterious as they are. There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but I have yet to see a published scientific study covering any of these ideas in depth. I agree with nonoise that it’s a possibility we just don’t yet know how or what to measure to understand certain complex phenomena in the world of audio reproduction. |
So why are you hung up on why power cords make a difference? I’m just generally curious what is going on scientifically speaking. Furthermore, once we understand the phenomena then we can design and tweak to produce the results we want. For example, maybe the gauge of the copper fully explains the effect. If that’s the case then we can tweak that one variable and ignore the other ones that could use up our time and money. Please explain the differences you hear. There are many differences that I hear. The treble went from bright and edgy to natural and smooth. This was most apparent at high volume levels. Whereas before the power cable, the treble at loud volumes would quickly cause listening fatigue, after the power cable, treble at high volume was much more pallatable and realistic sounding. The music overall became fuller and more musical. The bass seems to support the music better and be more coherent. It’s challening to accurately put these things into words. |
Geoff, you’ve mentioned highly polished conductors several times and I don’t know anything about it. Can you explain more, please? |
“...plugging their wall wart DIRECTLY into the outlet.”
The adapter goes from IEC to a standard NEMA electrical outlet style plug.
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Single strand? I haven’t. My power cables use solid core but with multiple runs of different gauges. I’ve heard people say that large gauge power cable are more bass heavy and small gauge more treble heavy and that the best results come from a power cable that uses multiple gauges. What can you tell us about 12 gauge solid core power cables? Do you get good results? |
On another note, I recently bought some adapters and put a high quality power cable upstream of the wall wart power supply that serves my DAC. Wow! The improvement in sound was very impressive. Much more slam and dynamics. I recommend anyone to try this if they are plugging their wall wart start into the outlet. |
Good stuff, atmasphere, thanks for posting. One thing I would like to explore is whether or not the power cable has to be at the amplifier or could it be at the breaker box. I hypothesize that it would have a greater effect at the amp. |
Only poorly designed gear benefits from upgraded power supply cables or power source (power conditioner, etc.). No doubt a well-built, oversized power supply goes a long way towards reaching maximize sound quality. If your product benefits from it, return it and get a better made one. Manufacturers have to build to certain price points based on consumer wants and needs, and unfortunately (most) people have budgets they have to stick to with this hobby. Most anything “budget friendly” will benefit from power cables because they will have a power supply that’s “good enough” to get good sound, and not over-engineered ones that are required for high end audio. You could say these budget friendly models are poorly designed but many are probably good designs given their price point. |
@Mzkmxcz We might be talking about different things. Mains leakage and EMI are important considerations. I was referring to over-engineered power supplies as a means to improve sound quality and dynamics. It’s long been known that using large power supplies rated many times in excess of what is “required” provides better sound. PS Audio was one of the first ones to discover this and bring it to market with their preamp line and then eventually all/most of their products. |
Indeed, if it sounds better to you, go for it. Just keep in mind it’s all placebo.
However, I can say with most certainty that the sound coming from your speakers is 100% identical It’s not placebo though. I have found the differences in sound between a $2 factory-supplied cord and a well-built high-end cable to be drastic, and repeatably so. I’m sure there are instances where cables don’t make a big difference, but so far I’ve found upgraded cables to help with each piece of equipment I’ve tried one on: amps, DACs, preamps, etc. The funny thing about it is that I didn’t want cables to make a difference - I didn’t want to spend money on them. Then I heard the differences clear as day and came to understand that cables are components that you cannot overlook if you want a truly high-end system. Mzkmxcv, do you have a revealing system? Why not just try a 30-day money back guarantee power cable in your system and see if you can hear it? |
I feel sorry for anyone who believes that reputable high end PCs cannot improve the sound of a system in many ways--in fact, too numerous to list. I do too. It’s like going to an art museum with your friend and being brought to tears by the beauty of a certain piece of artwork and having your friend glance at it for 1 second and say “there’s no scientific research showing that that specific piece of art is beautiful, therefore it’s just placebo effect.” To which I would reply, “Have you tried simply looking at the art piece? You’re missing out on a lot of life by carrying around that attitude.” |
Its subjectivism at a fundamental level. Power cords must change the sound or what is everyone hearing? I’m not convinced it’s placebo. I have many examples of hearing placebo effect with my audio system but extended listening tests has flushed them out. For example, I recently built some high pass filters that were 4 times as expensive as my current high pass filters and made with components people rave about. I hooked them up and thought I had improved sonics. But after extended listening tests I realized that the sound was actually worse in several metrics, so I took them out and put the cheapo filters back in. I’ve had similar experiences with installing more expensive RCA cables and ultimately pulling them out because the cheaper versions were better. If this was all placebo/confirmation bias I would have kept the expensive high pass filters because I genuinely thought they would be better. |
I do find it interesting that we have not yet learned to take measurements and from those measurements tell if a piece of equipment will sound good to the ear. All good audio designers know this. You use objective science to get close to what you want in a power amp design, for example, and then you tweak and trial and error to voice the thing to sound great. For example, you might experiment with the types of caps, play around with surface mount or through-hole mounting, types of internal wiring and solder, or consider adding tubes. Tubes, for example, do nothing to improve the measurements - they add distortion - but there is a reason many of the best preamps ever made use tubes. They sound good, and you will not arrive at that conclusion by looking at measurements. You just have to listen. |
@jea48 I really appreciated those quotes you posted. Thanks! With my power cables, I notice more slam/weight to the bass (which could be caused by the stock cord limiting current) and I notice cleaner treble (perhaps caused by issues with high frequency current limiting and it’s increased IMD). |
PS Audio sells “high end” power cords, and even he basically said, in his rebuttal to null tests, that their only real benefit is better shielding for EMI When and where did Paul state that? I just watched a video of his where he says the gauge of wiring in power cables affects the frequencies: large gauge emphasis bass and small gauge emphasis treble. He said a good power cable uses both small and large gauge. I have found similar results in my experience. When I put a very large gauge power cable upstream of my DAC, I had to turn down the sub because the bass was much greater than with a smaller gauge cable. And if it wasn’t actually greater in quantity, then it did something to the bass that made me want to turn it down because it wasn’t as pleasing. I eventually swapped that cable out because it didn’t improve on what was there before. This experience reflects other comments I’ve read about matching the right cable gauge to the piece of equipment. Larger gauge isn’t necessarily better. |
For me, I don’t think it’d be worth the expense though. If I was rich, I’d try it with good used power cables. You don’t have to spend a ton. I got great improvement out of a $150 cable. I’m sure there is better stuff out there for more money but I was pleasantly surprised by that cable. |
@jtucker I like your idea. Let’s settle this thing once and for all and produce some measurements. It shouldn’t be hard to do given that the audibility is so apparent. I don’t know exactly what to measure but I would be inclined to look at transient behaviors instead of steady state properties. |
@twinterfinder. I really appreciated to hear your success story! There is also something very unique about it: in your specific case, the fact that your wife noticed the difference in sound and had no idea there was a new power cable in the system. That should really throw the objectivist/measurement people for a loop. They cannot claim placebo or bias or any sort of “tricking the mind” based arguments for this one. I’m curious what they will come up with or, perhaps, they’ll give a pass for your one specific example and concede a small amount of ground in that SOME power cables do effect sound SOME of the time. Hallelujah! |
@doitwithlife Wow, that’s pretty fascinating! I wonder why cable manufacturers don’t do demos like that? Or maybe they do and I’m not aware of them. Honestly, I bought my cables without seeing a demo or hearing them. I went off reviews and my positive past experiences with cable upgrades and the money back guarantee helped too. |
Can someone please post @doitwithlife’s photos in this thread so they are easily visible? Please make sure to cite him as the source in your post.
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@mzk If I’m understanding @doitwithlife correctly, he’s saying that the input power to his PS Audio regenerator is cleaned up significantly with an aftermarket power cable. The power regenerator is doing such a good job cleaning up the signal that the output levels are similar, but apparently still audible between cords. That’s after a very high quality power regenerator, which costs more than some people’s entire systems!
If you’re like most people who don’t have a power regenerator (which isn’t the same as a power conditioner), you’ll be sending 33% less harmonic distortion to your amplifier and electronics. I believe that is audible. That’s supported by the fact that I can easily hear the difference between cables and so can many people who have posted in this thread (and thousands more if you include other forums).
At last, we have small bridge between the objectivists and subjectivists. And surprise, surprise they might just be different paths to arrive at the same truths. |
Or maybe it’s just one giant AI unit, that posts everywhere under fake identities. Hahaha, plot twist: we’re all arguing with one AI who’s trying to gaslight us. |
Thanks for the data, doitwithlife! |
I think the biggest reason is added cost. If you make a comparable amp to your competitor, you will price yourself out of the market if you mark it up $100 and include a better power cord. It also depends on the customer. It’s not like the amp sucks without a good power cable, it just doesn’t perform at its peak which many customers may not care about (not everyone is as anal as all of us here when it comes to music), and the customers who do care would rather shop around for the cable that sounds best to them (who wants to pay an extra $100 for a cable that will just sit around because you already had a better cable or you find one that better suits your taste?). Then there are the denialists - “No way I’m going to buy an amp from that company when they believe in pseudoscientific concepts like cables!” 😂 Manufacturers are in a tough position caught between cost, anal audiophiles and not turning off the denialists any more than they already are. |
