I think it is way more like playing tug of war.. Except the rope is going in 237 different direction including up down sideways and several hidden dimensions .. all at once. Plus it clearly is passing through at least one Black Hole....
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
845 responses Add your response
I cannot believe people here are still communicating with this mzk " guy ". He is unwilling to try an aftermarket power cable, and listen for him / her self. Whatever is said to him, means absolutely nothing. He is doing what he does, as many before him. Let it go......let him / her go. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mzkmxcv @geoffkait Some were sound engineers, so I hope they can, for their sake. >>>>Lol. They’re even worse than musicians. Give me a break! |
mzkmxcv @geoffkait Bias is always present for everyone regarding evaluating speakers/DACs/etc., it’s just unavoidable. People claim benefits in going 24/192 over 16/44.1, and the only reason is because you think it’s better, the simple factual truth is 44.1kHz is enough unless your DACs filter is garbage, and 16Bit is enough as it’s almost always a lower noise floor than what you can hear. Same reason DSD has no benefits, and MQA is worse than CD (it’s half lossy by definition). >>>>Experienced listeners are not swayed by these silly psychological effects, whether they be placebo effect, reverse placebo effect, expectation bias, or just psyching yourself out. They may be great in the pharmacutical industry but have little use for advanced audiophiles. Maybe if you’re trying to convince a gullible newbie.... Speaking of DSD, I have some DSD CDs, they sound spectacular. Maybe I’m the victim of the placebo vortex. OMG! 😮 |
@thyname I’ve bought stuff on Audiogon, but they were local so I paid them in cash when I met them. None of those people in the study who were musicians/sound engineers could either. So, if they couldn’t on >$20,000 worth of gear in a near perfect room with lots of treatment, what makes you say you can? As I’ve said, hearing a difference doesn’t mean there is one, that’s all I’m trying to prove. Measurements do tell you pretty much everything if you were listening in a double-blind study (average joe likes more bass than a sound engineer), but once you see/know the gear, measurements are far less meaningful. Mesurements dictate the KEF Blade/2 sounds better than anything Wilson puts out, and I’ve recommended people who were eyeing Wilson to look at the KEF Blade/2 and others, and every single one agreed and chose not to get Wilson as they sounded the worse. This is not conclusive data at all, but it is worth stating. @geoffkait Some were sound engineers, so I hope they can, for their sake. |
@mzkmxcv: If you cannot differentiate MP3 and CD with $12,000 speakers, $9,000 Amp and over $6,000 DAC, then I seriously question your hearing. I am 100% serious on this. No joke. Over the course of a year that you have joined Audiogon (btw with zero feedback meaning no purchases or sales), based on your remarks on amps, DACs, etc., it seems like you’re convinced that only measurements define the sound quality of a component and you won’t budge. That’s fine but don’t be so adamant in trying to convince others. Nothing wrong with the measurements (and Amirm and Archimego), but if said measurements were the only criteria to assess sound quality, we would all have Benchmark products in our racks. Everyone else would be out of business. It seems like your only purpose in forums (and possibly in life), is to pollute every single thread questioning every single product, be it DAC (other the Topping of course), Amp, streamer, cable, etc. Asking people for double blind test in 10 (ten) seconds intervals! I wonder why. And are you sure what you listed is your equipment? I quickly googled your username, and it appears in several forums in Massdrop discussing $15 IEMs, as well as KEF and ELAC speakers. And of course, Topping DACs! |
mzkmxcv: I have said everything relevant regarding my ability to distinguish between the cable manufacturers I mentioned above. I have no need to win an argument against alleged measurements as to why I do. But I can assure you it is not confirmation bias.It is now time for me to bow out of this thread. |
@thyname I don’t have $10,000 pieces of gear, but yes, wether it be speakers or headphones. If you can find a study that shows >70% confidence, I’d love to see it. Here’s one where people could download the files and play them on their own gear. This is far less scientific. |
Funny that 2009 study is the first that comes up when I googled it, with a broken link. However, you were persistent enough to find it! A big sample of a whole 13 people! With a mean age of 27!!? Their second conclusion was fine, until the last part: *****Trained listeners cannot discriminate between CD quality and mp3 compression (256-320kb/s),while expert listeners could*** Because they had so few individuals (13) they can't compare results from experts and non-experts. It might take at least 10 times as many individuals before they could make statistically valid observations about that. And they never defined what makes for a trained listener and what makes for an expert trained listener. Simple statistics. Besides, with the admittedly nice equipment you listed, are you saying that you cannot differentiate between mp3 and CD? |
@thyname The PowerPoint version is down, but the AES paper is available. Room: Critical Listening Laboratory of the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology Speakers: B&W 802D ($12,000) Amp: Classé CA-5200 ($8000, Class-A at lower wattage) DAC: Grace m906 (>$6000) The only instance where the confidence rating was above 60% for CD vs 320Kbps is one where it was harder to tell with 256Kbps, and that makes no sense. |
mzkmxcv357 posts01-15-2019 1:23pm I can also tell you that pretty much no person can tell the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and CD or higher, as studies have been done in treated rooms with expensive gear, and the confidence ratings were all 40%-60%. However, you may think you can. ----- Oh boy! Issue with seems to be not just with the power cords. It runs deeper than that. Any links to the above statement? Just curious --- do you listen to music on a clock radio speaker with Alexa? |
SO the non magnetic part... It has to either suck up the RFI EMI radiation around it. or? Since there is no 'acting at a distance' all it can be doing is passively 'doing' to whatever comes it's way. Or is the claim that the passive device IS acting at a distance 'magically' affecting other things? Like certain 'Tele' tweaks? Certain Chips? mysterious powers... Ohhhhh... |
@geoffkait Bias is always present for everyone regarding evaluating speakers/DACs/etc., it’s just unavoidable. People claim benefits in going 24/192 over 16/44.1, and the only reason is because you think it’s better, the simple factual truth is 44.1kHz is enough unless your DACs filter is garbage, and 16Bit is enough as it’s almost always a lower noise floor than what you can hear. Same reason DSD has no benefits, and MQA is worse than CD (it’s half lossy by definition). |
Jitter Geoff, thank you for establishing that the magnetism is not part of the functioning mechanism of the mat, we were all wondering about that. Just so we do not need to go back and reread 15 pages to find it, would you please refresh our memories on what is the part of the mat that creates its sonic benefits? >>>>>The non magnetic part. I’m a little surprised you didn’t think of that. Jitter Also, which part of the mat reduces electrical usage when placed on an electrical appliance and that also by placing it on a fuse box can improve the functioning of all electrical apparatus including television sets? I think I read it a while ago but it must have slipped from memory. >>>>>I don’t know. I was kind of hoping you could tell me. |
@gpgr4blu Are you claiming you are impervious to placebo? If so, you probably are the only such person alive. Measurements go out the window once you know what product you are listening to (wether it be the brand, looks, price, or all three). I can tell you the Dutch & Dutch 8C is a state of the art speaker (besting probably most <$20,000 even passive), and you may agree if you listened double-blind, but then if you didn’t like it when sighted, there’s no point. I can also tell you that pretty much no person can tell the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and CD or higher, as studies have been done in treated rooms with expensive gear, and the confidence ratings were all 40%-60%. However, you may think you can. I can’t tell you what speakers/DAC/amps you’ll like in your home, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty of what you’d like during a double-blind study though. |
Geoff, thank you for establishing that the magnetism is not part of the functioning mechanism of the mat, we were all wondering about that. Just so we do not need to go back and reread 15 pages to find it, would you please refresh our memories on what is the part of the mat that creates its sonic benefits? Also, which part of the mat reduces electrical usage when placed on an electrical appliance and that also by placing it on a fuse box can improve the functioning of all electrical apparatus including television sets? I think I read it a while ago but it must have slipped from memory. |
People! We already established that magnetism is strictly for attaching the mat to a ferrous metal object. The principle involved has absolutely nothing to do with magnetism 🧲. That’s why the newer smaller cards are not (rpt not) magnetic. In fact we also know magnetism per se is generally bad for sound. That’s why we see preferences for non-magnetic chassis, non-magnetic screws, transformers wrapped with mu metal, etc. He-loo! Try to keep up, people! We need scamps like Elizabeth and Jitter to keep everyone straight. 😛 |
@ elizabeth
As to the kitchen magnets, I tried six of them and they are worthless as to affecting my audio and video systems. On the contrary, the E-Mats, full size, one dozen, greatly improve my sonics. Just one on the main power box significantly improved the video picture with enhanced color and brightness on my 75" Sony 940D. My wife does not want me to remove it. Since 100s have tried and purchased the E-Mats and found the same results, why knock it? I would have returned them unless they provided a very significant benefit for the cost. Again, the E-Mat is NOT a kitchen magnet. The kitchen magnet has a low level magnetism and helps hold it to some metal products. It is being used only as a convenient way to hold the inside "mystery" product that Tim Mrock uses to achieve the sonic enhancement. I don't know what the "mystery" product is but it works. As to TC product, I reserve judgement although I have applied it liberally last year. I prefer the E-Mats. |
mzkmxcv: You can build your system based upon measurements. I’ll build mine, as I have over the past 40+ years, based to some extent on measurements, but to a greater extent on what I hear. As for the science you believe to be definitively on point, I disagree with your characterization of how the measurements you present relate to how the sounds measured are processed by the human ear. But let's assume you are correct, well, then --if the current science cannot measure why I hear differences in PCs and ICs , then I submit that it is not measuring everything. Or as a scribe once said: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." |
I have noticed explaining things on audio sites to folks has certainly helped deepen my own understanding. Even of my own motives...aka I just bought two refrigerator magnet whiteboards as a pseudo E Mat. So I posted on the big E Mat thread about how I am gonna try this as they even make it clear on the E Mat website the thing is a refrigerator magnet.. (sort of) So the very next post is asking me ’Are you trying to start a dustup? mmmmaaaaaaaayyyyyybbbbeeeeee? More like just seeing if a 1/26 the price for 3 times the size btw. has more than 1/78 of the effect??? |
A few quotes from Lord Ernest Rutherford (1871-1937), one of my science heroes: "All science is either physics or stamp collecting." "An alleged scientific discovery has no merit unless it can be explained to a barmaid." "When we have found how the nucleus of atoms is built up we shall have found the greatest secret of all — except life." "I have broken the machine and touched the ghost of matter." "We're like children who always want to take apart watches to see how they work." |
mzkmxcv Stereophile recorded one sighted listening test at an audio show comparing speaker cables, and the group that preceded expensove cables actually chose the generic cables. The test itself was highly flawed though: sighted, not individual (most not in the sweet spot), not the same gauge wires, etc. >>>>Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. All tests are flawed. Especially when results are negative. There are simply too many things that can go wrong, too many pitfalls, to put any confidence in them. Besides, people have ulterior motives a lot of times for performing tests. You know what I’m talking about. Or even for demanding tests be done. Give me a break! Even blind tests can’t save the sorry donkey. 😢 |
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@thyname Got a link to that. Stereophile recorded one sighted listening test at an audio show comparing speaker cables, and the group that preceded expensove cables actually chose the generic cables. The test itself was highly flawed though: sighted, not individual (most not in the sweet spot), not the same gauge wires, etc. |
So here is some anecdotal on "deniers" - those who claim they hear no difference: A bunch of them were gathered in a blind test, where some speaker cables were to be tested - generic zip cord vs. a high end speaker cable - or so they were told. Then, the tester used the same exact cable, but, on test "b" (cable "b" to the subjects), the polarity was swapped (speakers connected out of phase). 100% of the subjects reported they heard no difference. Blind. The matter of fact, the out-of-phase "cable" sounded noticeably worse than the correct connection cable. Go figure! |
mzkmxcv351 posts01-14-2019 1:28pm@elizabeth Say what?! // John Curl Interview Page 12/18 [Quote] Q: Okay, what about capacitors? JC: I learned how to measure a capacitor for the first time about 25 years ago working with Tektronix. They were making a piece of equipment which measured capacitors and they were really worried about the values. They were doing it with one of their pieces of test equipment -- It’s called a curve tracer. They modified it so it would measure the value of capacitors. They found that ceramic capacitors, for example, had another characteristic they had never been able to see on the screen before and it actually affected the measurement of the value of the cap. It showed a tremendous non-linearity. Interestingly enough, in this particular test and this method of measurement, only ceramic capacitors showed up to be really bad. We found that ceramic capacitors really were bad guys. Later we found that we could emulate the same problem indirectly using normal test equipment, but we had to operate the capacitor in some sort of real way. It couldn’t just be sitting there with zero volts across it; it had to be working with some kind of a signal like rolling it off high frequencies, low frequencies or something. John Curl Interview Page 13/18 I published a paper in 1978 and Audio magazine article in 1979 that showed this problem with ceramics, and we also found that Tantalum capacitors did almost the same thing. With this particular test (with normal test equipment) you could see the non - linearity of the Tantalum capacitors as well as the ceramics. This still allowed us, in theory, to use aluminum electrolytics -- we couldn’t find any real problem with them as long as they were used properly -- or any kind of metal film capacitor. A third type of distortion, which has been known for many years, but had been forgotten about, is called dielectric absorption. This particular problem used to be very important back in the 50s when people used to solve many engineering problems with analog computers. These analog computers would emulate mathematical equations with capacitors, resistors, or amplifiers. Music will also evoke dielectric absorption. Music tends to not be completely symmetrical at all times, and even though it averages out in the long run it isn’t necessarily a test tone. If you put a symmetrical test tone through a mylar capacitor for example you won’t find any real problem. However if you use an asymmetrical signal you’ll find that it does have dielectric absorption. This is where the dielectric absorbs part of the signal and then spits it back later. Well this can’t be good. Invariably you never get the musical peak, it cannot be completely passed by the capacitor because the capacitor has to take some of the energy from the musical peak. It stores it like a battery. Fortunately, this material property isn’t shared by Polystyrene, Teflon, or Polypropylene, which is why we tend to use these caps instead of mylar. Tantalum, aluminum, and mylar are pretty bad in this area. As a result of all this, we have to exclude many types of capacitors John Curl Interview Page 14/18 because they all have some problems to a greater or lesser degree. Ultimately we wind up with polystyrene, polypropylene, and Teflon. And that’s why we tend to prefer these capacitors when we can. Except for the use of aluminum electrolytic for power supplies , the more capacitors we can eliminate the better it its. Q: You’ve always been a proponent of trying to keep the signal path free of inductors and capacitors. Why is this so important?JC: It’s like this - it is easy enough today to design out capacitors between stages. It is rather redundant and wasteful to add capacitors between stages. First of all, they do not help the size of the unit. They’re not very reliable. If anything is going to go bad, the capacitors will probably go bad first ... unless you have catastrophic failure. In short, they don’t really do you any good so. The best capacitor is no capacitor...we don’t need them anymore. In the old days, when we didn’t have complementary circuits, we needed capacitors. When you look at vacuum tubes there is no such thing as a complementary vacuum tube device. So you almost invariably needed transformers and capacitors. Then again, one of the advantages of the vacuum tubes is that they are very high impedance devices, so the capacitors could be small in value even though they might have to be high voltage. Now, when you use capacitors in solid state transistor equipment, you generally need fairly large value capacitors, but their voltages don’t have to be so high. These situations would seem perfect for aluminum or Tantalum electrolytics. However, these are the ones that are not very reliable and they have all these secondary distortion characteristics ... John Curl Interview Page 15/18 dielectric absorption, nonlinear distortion, and that sort of thing. So, if you can eliminate these capacitors, why put them in in the first place? Now, some people can say ’what about leakage or safety or something like that?’ Well, of course, you have to be careful, and that is what modern protective circuitry is good at. It shuts down the amplifiers if they are behaving abnormally, yet it doesn’t impact the signal when the amp is behaving normally. We also use servos, which are basically very precise well matched IC devices. In the factory, they laser trim them down to one or two millivolts and then we simply use these to compare the output to ground and then adjust very slowly to zero out any offset that might be inherent in the amplifier or preamplifier. It’s easy to do these things now. Thirty years ago it wasn’t easy because we didn’t have FET input ICs, much less very well matched FET input ICs. For example, the JC -2 didn’t have servos because they weren’t practical in 1973 when it was designed. Maybe the military could’ve done it, but the real world had to wait until about 1978 or so. Also, we couldn’t use mylar capacitors, which are fairly efficient coupling capacitors. While mylars are fairly efficient from a size and cost point of view, we realized they have problems with dielectric absorption. I didn’t believe it at first. I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could ’hear the caps’ and I thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about? Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line John Curl Interview Page 16/18 to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody. [End of Quoted material.] http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf So first you have to admit you hear something....... . |
thyname You cannot win any argument with any cable deniers folks. That’s the reality. They will never submit to actually trying stuff, instead, asking us to provide proof and measurements.Yes, that is indeed the pattern that we’ve seen repeated here many times. Presumably, that’s why the OP stated: If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism.It’s interesting that the the deniers are so unwilling to experiment, often responding that it isn’t necessary because they know in advance what the results of a listening test would be. What’s interesting about that claim is - accepting their convictions about the influence of "placebo effect" - they are probably correct. If you’re certain you won’t hear difference, then most likely you won’t hear a difference. Of course, if you’re unwilling to experiment and listen, you are assured to not hear any difference at all. |
@mitch2 1. What characteristics of a power cord would affect voltage (i.e., cause a voltage drop) - is that primarily a function of resistance and wire gauge, or something else, andVoltage drop can be caused by the connectors or the wire itself- they all respond to Ohm's Law. If you find that either are getting warm, you know for sure there is a voltage drop occurring. The geometry and materials affect bandwidth, in addition to gauge. |
If one looks at many positive posters here and elsewhere... They too once thought it was impossible for cables to affect the sound. Until they heard it for themselves. Over and over i have read folks saying this, and can say I too used to pooh pooh powercords, and still do speaker cables to some degree. But once I heard a difference in ap power cord.well what can I say. So I say never give up on the naysayers. Some day they too will hear a difference. |
You guys are wasting your time. You cannot win any argument with any cable deniers folks. That's the reality. They will never submit to actually trying stuff, instead, asking us to provide proof and measurements. They often throw in some mumbo-jumbo electric engineering stuff into the discussion, often copied from another similar forum, just say: "you see - it cannot possibly make a difference". More often than not, their actual gear is a pittance, stuff from the 80s, with captive power cords, and low-fi gear. Even if they tried good cables, they won't hear any difference anyway, as their stuff is junk. A $1,000 power cords will not make a DIY Amp costing $499 in 1988 sound like a modern, say $10,000 Amp. As simple as that. I always find them to show their jealousy, lack of means to accomplish anything, and a serious case of "If I cannot afford it, it is not worth it" mentality. Just ignore them. Find like-minded people, with good gear, and open-mind to experiment and try new stuff. |
Well, to add to the mystery and consternation... Today I got in the mail a pair of 10 ohm Duelund Cast. So after cleaning the leads I added them to a pair of 1.3 ohm to get me 1.15 ohm to place on the midrange panel resistance on my Magnepan 20.7 speakers. Previously 0.75 ohms was the right number... When I bought some new Pangea AC14XL powercords, and replaced all the previous Pangea AC14 Se signature cords on my sources.The midrange on the Magnepan got 'brighter sounding'. So what I am saying is the changing of powercords changed the resistance I need in the speaker midrange to have them sound best.Good luck |
