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Ahhh--Problem solved. Adding a REL sub-bass unit...

I'm wondering how many audiophiles have given up on loudspeakers preamturely, or have gone down the rabbit hole of cable swapping to "fix" an issue with their speakers.  

I grew up hating subwoofers and home theatre.  I still haven't come around fully to home theatre.  I've warmed up though.  I've had my own issues with otherwise great loudspeakers, including a pair of Klipsch Forte IIIs.  I was very frustrated as I'm feeding them from a respected tube integrated, I've tried them with a 300B amp, and I've toiled over positioning.  

The issue that I was having was the mids and highs were dominating in my room--despite the size of the woofer and passive radiator. Some recordings were just too bright.  Sometimes I felt the speaker, however "alive" and dynamic was not imaging well, needed soundstage help, and so on.  

I hate to say the REL T9i I threw in the mix today is a panacea because there's always stuff to tweak.  Yet I have experienced this before with a Sumiko subwoofer.  Adding one to the mix and dialing it in so that it's barely audible has brought everything into focus.  Everything is more relaxed and energetic at the same time.  

I'd say that the REL is a room tuning device above all.  I have a larger room (I think it's 15 wide, 24 long and 10 high--in feet).   I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend or what different choices would solve this otherwise.  From a guy that used to reject subwoofers out of hand (my bias came from the 90s home theatre craze) I think that they might be necessary in the lion's share of systems with the lion's share of speakers.  To say, "you don't need a sub" with speakers might be true depending on your room, but I also think in most situations you are missing out on what they can do for so many criteria that are not necessarily in keeping with adding bass--e.g. soundstage, focus, imagine, fullness, taming treble, etc.). 

Finally, I really wish that I could try some other brands as many audiogon members recommended so many respectable names.  I ultimately went with REL because of its philosophy, my similar experience with a Sumiko sub (within the family of REL or somehow related), and the high frequency input connections. 
128x128jbhiller
ieales's avatar
ieales
297 posts
 
@steakster 
Disinformation abounds here.
Prefer it if you can refute engineering facts. 

2. - Loudspeaker designers spend great effort creating crossovers for LF/Mid/HF bands. Mathematically it's almost impossible to mate a 12" driver to 8" or smaller driver in a vastly different box with no filter and get seamless integration. The level may be relatively flat, but the phase will be a nightmare. Until one has heard a minimum phase error system playing all 10 octaves, one has never heard bass correctly reproduced.

4. - Ported speakers have large amounts of time / phase shift, and the lower you go, the worse it gets.: "Bass reflex cabinets have relatively poor transient response, causing "smearing" or a longer resonance of the bass notes. Though the sound coming out of the port may have the same phase of that from the front surface, but it can never be at the same time, thus, the extended bass energy is really noise disguised as signal. The disguise works only when the sound is a continuous tone (one of the reason why some people prefer some particular kind of music for their audio system), but reveals itself most apparently at reproducing percussion sound."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_reflex#Limitations 

As a great musician friend once said on hearing my system "Those little speakers aren't putting out all that gorgeous bass?!?!?!?!?" Informed of the sub, he stated "Every other subwoofer I've ever heard just boomed!!"

steakster
720 posts
 
@ieales  Knock yourself out.   You're still wrong.    Best to insert IMO in every one of your posts.


phd
1,008 posts
 
You know it really depends on your main speakers whether or not they would benefit from a subwoofer.  As big as my main horn speakers are, they never have produced just enough bass to satisfy me even with more powerful amps,. So a subwoofer was added with excellent results. You want a sub that sounds tight and tuneful (very musical) that creates a seamless presentation.
Now in my other room I have huge but heavy custom made cabinets with 15 inch woofers, they are sealed enclosures, they are capable producing thunderous depth & bass when called upon. I would never need to add a sub to such a set-up.
jbhiller's avatar
jbhiller OP
464 posts
 
Very interesting comments to my OP.

I have to say that in my system (with two different sets of speakers and 3 different amps--tube, class D and class G), the system always sounds better using REL/Sumiko’s recommended way of sending the signal from the speaker terminals on the amps to the High Frequency Input on the REL or Sumiko. I’ve tried 2 other ways and the most musical was HFI and not using a crossover on the main speakers--i.e. running the mains full range.






wolf_garcia
4,650 posts
 
My sub voyage started with a used REL Q150e that was the best 200 bucks (Ebay) I've ever spent on audio...all it needed was new grill cloth, done. Year or so later I found a REL Q108MKII also for about 200 bucks, in perfect shape, needed nothing. Made cables from Canare Star Quad, Neutrik Speakons...done. Easily adjustable, properly placed magic. No DSP needed, small se amp drives the 99db mains. Full range magic.
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