Audiolabyrinth, why not start a thread here or at audiocirclce dealig with this?
I recently got some tube experience about this, for the 12xxx tubes, try the european ecc equivalents...ie phillips/ siemens/mullards/brimar/ Marconi/Tungsram(white labels) . Not Telefunken, which are clean but are dull.
Not electro harmonix, not JJ unless very old. Not any chinese either.
Unfortunately, some of the recommended tubes are expensive online, so be patient.
US tubes rule the roost for rectifiers and 45 triodes. PM me if you need more of my 2nd hand info. I learned all thus only this week doing a deep dive. |
Matt,
Tube rolling is not the beez kneez, but a useful tweak for gear. For the Big 7, you only have a few parameters to change. You can rioll the rectis, but the stock stuff ia already very performant. Then you can roll the output tubes with vintage RCA/Cunningham 45 triodes globes (circa$150 pair), PSVANE WE Replica 101d-L, or 45 triode ST shape ($100 a pair). For the 2A3 lovers they have many rolling options, but some thing they are microphonic.
The consensus is that the 274b will be the best recti and that vintage RCA globe 45s will give the best result, and that the Psvane WE replica sounds very, very decent but YMMV.
Remember this a DHT Dac, so no small tubes allowed! |
I have heard that Telefunken tubes are clean and quite but quite "dead" sounding!
Phillips/Siemens/Mullard/Brimar/Valvo/certain Teslas might be better options. In general for the small tubes, I have heard that the W. Europeans are the best choice and for rectifiers, the vintage Americans are the best. This I get from a pal with 25 years experience in tube rolling and he is based in Eastern europe. |
12AU7….is that the ECC82?
If so, I agree the Mullards are great and failing that, get Tungsram, Tesla, or Phillips (not miniwatt). This is what my experienced friend told me…he tried them all for decades. |
Run, dont walk and get this pair. LoL |
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-RFT-NOS-NIB-12au7-ECC82-tubes-Test-NOS-/171018893946?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27d1853a7a
The secret is getting out... |
Tungram ecc82
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-TUNGSRAM-ECC82-12AU7-UNUSED-NOS-TUBES-TESTED-ON-AMPLITREX-/151396831739?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item233ff451fb |
Sigh, OK go buy Amperex. You need to find out the hard way. |
Paul79,
I have just received some confirmatory feedback to what you say from a trusted industry participant in the high end of the market:
"I am not a fan of the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design (two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or amplification stages).
That said, this is the extreme purist point of view.
A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver , even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more performance on top.
So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind (most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only later double triodes, as they were cheaper.
I would look for a pre with a minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply. According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy haze" .
However, if you use digital only, I would got straight out of the dac into the power amp. If the tube output stage of the dac is properly designed for direct drive, any additional preamp should not be necessary and in fact will
add haze and time- smear to the sound. |
Why NOS Tubes are better:
6moons industry features: A visit to BTB Elektronik
Okay, but you inventory much which would seem of interest to the high-end valve lover. So what’s up with the NOS trend? I mean, really, isn’t it mostly retro? Telefunken simply looks cooler than Sovtek stamped on the glass? Or are there bona fide advantages of quality and sound? Are we really to believe that valve quality and production processes have devolved over time?
The explanation is simple. In the 60s when valves enjoyed their halcyon days, the average German income was about 500 Deutsch Marks and an EL34 of the era sold for 15DM. If you transfer that relationship to 2012, an EL34 still sells for about €15 whilst the average income has come up to €3.000/month. It’s easy to see that tubes today are far more affordable. Hence the inverse is true too – price pressures on manufacturers are much higher today. Because valve production remains about 90% manual, you can’t compensate with automatization. In the past selection was much tighter and rejection ratios were far more generous. Today things make it to market which would have been trashed then. That’s why the quality of vintage valves tends to be quite high to make NOS much more than just a fascination with retro. |
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Audiolaby, The Job 225 power amp and the upcoming monoblocs are DC coupled. I am hoping to audition the monoblocs at the factory in a few weeks if their invitatation still holds. |
which album is that and where to download?
Audiolab, send me that tube email! |
Audiolab, how do you know if you would like what Matt likes?This is not a shootout, its a demo report by Matt. You may likely find you font share quite the same opinion if you demoed together. |
If you use a computer as source, the current rages are HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256 in Windows ASIO or Windows Server 2012R2 in CORE mode.
I have been told that straight USB beats any converter with these two approaches, so maybe the low hanging fruit is optimization of software filtering, or killing needless computer background processes. |
Yes, but too complicated to get into here. Phil from AO has spent over 3 years on this problem alone and he is a full time IT guy and gave me a lot of insight.
Suffice to say TIMING is maybe the most important thing in audio and he uses only Windows SERVER OS and encourages a SERVER class motherboard.
Its well and good that some people talk about server being optimsed, but they really have to say HOW in detail.
I dont want to belittle filter tech and POWER supply, as those are critical too. |
If your Dac cant handle DSD or in any case has its sweetspot at 24/88, then buy thta! |
Technics is back with a bang too! |
Guido, here:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/poland2014/17.html
and here
http://soundrebels.com/artykuly/reportaze/item/464-audio-show-2014-cz-2 |
Yes, the best thing about the Invicta is the built in SDXC TRANSPORT. This is the cleanest transport out there, really. I wish 1TB cards were out and were affordable. |
Its $52K, so….U can expect a lot for that.
I heard it with PSA Transport and Vivid Giya speakers.
It was very good, but the music was unfamiliar as were the speakers.
All this is a matter of taste, but the Trinity has a lot of cool tech inside. Analog oversampling, Lianotec, etc. |
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Scott, is it your opinion that the internall SSD sounds better than an SDxc card? I was told otherwise, but have no direct experience.
The thing is that a 500GB SDXC card in now about GBP400 and in a year or 2, 1 TB will likely cost that amount. That means that one can hace one's ENTIRE library in the top pocket with say 5 to 6 1TB SDXC cards and these cards are not constantly shifting data around for efficiency sake like HDDs and SSDs and are ligtning fast, as evidenced by their use in hi-speed photography.
Your considered opinion is welcome. |
Matt,
How can you NOT know CAD? They are a top quality British digital audio player. LoL |
Thanks for the comment Scott.
For me, the beauty of the card solution is the non-shifting data, the ability to handle data rapidly and most importantly, the ability to travel with your ENTIRE music collection in your wallet. Ultimate MOBILITY!
Price? just give it 2 years….
The tech is reminiscent or the Porzilli "Memory Player".
Keep on making your good stuff. Knowledgeable people (in the industry) have given your products the thumbs up. |
The amps are not SOTA, as they essentially use the Threshold STASIS tech, which was an adaptation of current dumping. Class a voltage combined with class D current. The older techs used class B current.
The complaint about Devialet is that they dont work that well with very hard to drive speakers. Their SAM tech does make them a flawless matchup to normal speajkers that have been SAM optimized though.
This is great turnkey stuff, but you have to buy into the Devialet eco-system, which currenly means no DSD and even if it comes later could likely NOT be pure DSD.
Get Devialet and one can just forget about Nervosa. |
I got it from actual listening at Shows and from persuing forums like A-Asylum. There is a huge current dumping thread there.
I was interested in getting a Nakamishi Stasis amp once upon a time, as I know of Nelson Pass accomplishment with Stasis power. A UK audio industry buddy also told me about the hybrid amp tech and how they developed it.
BTW, I did not even visit Goldmund until mid-2013, so you are barking up the wrong tree. What would they know about Current Dumping anyway?
I also resent your implication that I cant think for myself and apply critical reasoning. Methinks you are the one swayed here by bling. |
Andrew, did you read post 135?
Those people were wrong. Cant see the forest for the trees. Class A voltage, Class B or Class D current drive. Simples.
All the engineering egghead speak cant get away from that helicopter view.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. |
How can there be a guess from them, when I didnt meet the people till a year later and I dont even know the technical people there? The tread clearly shows a 2012 discussion.
Quit while you are ahead, you are spreading misinformation. It seems you cant see the Forest for the trees either.
No one said Devialet does not sound good…I heard it since 2012 and I do agree that Phantom is true break thru stuff, if it sounds as good as they say. The hybrid amplification is not, its just evolutionary and it does have problems driving hard to drive speakers, hence then going for more power in the 400.
Dont care what Matt or the wifey says, it does not change reality. Sorry. |
Nelson Pass developed STASIS Power for Threshold from the 1990s, and licensed the tech to Nakamishi. Those vintage amps still command a good price as the tech is well proven. Class A voltage to sweeten the sound, class B or now Class D current drive. Great marriage of SQ while having efficient grunt. Clearly Class D is significantly more efficient than Class B. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.
Having patents does not necessarily mean true breakthru, it just means you do things slightly differently than what has been patened before. Many ways to skin a cat. |
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Actually a used Pacific Microsonics PM2 DAC/ADC will likely cost more than $20K used! |
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CStooner,
You could the $14K Dartzeel "Danalogue" that is about to be release. Its the LHC-208 and its an Ethernet Dac (to 384PCM (DXD) and DSD128) and 200 wpc Integrated amp in one. For darTZeel, that is very "cheap".
Otherwise, just get a Sonore Signature Rendu for $3k (Streamer) and that will take Internet input and output in RCA Spdif or HDMI (i2S - PS Audio standard). What makes this special is that John Swenson consulted on this one and it has a reworked power distribution network on the input and isolates the transport from polluting the Dac, especially via i2S (I think he uses giant magneto resitives).
An extract of his burb here:
"On isolation, I have been including full isolation between digital sections and mixed signal sections for many many years. I do not use optical isolators, I do not like them at all, I prefer the GMR (Giant Magneto Resistive) isolators made by NVE. I think they work way better than opto isolators."
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/index10.html#post370186
Finally I think Steve is planning Ethernet input in his latest Dac |
Please be aware that the Signature Rendu is not the same as the regular (basic) Rendu ($1200 or so). It is an all out assualt and the key is the PDN design by John Swenson who is well known online. I copy Paste Barrows explanation. He consults for Sonore and PS Audio.
barrows - 01-07-2015, 11:18 PM Report Post Reply
Hi folks, let me give some technical information about the differences between the Rendu and the Signature Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses a transformer which is ~4 times the price of the transformer in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses (2) oscillators (clock circuits) which ~10 times the price of the ones in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu comes in a beautiful custom chassis (made in USA) costing ~6 times more than the Rendu chassis.
OK, so above you can get an idea on some of the parts costs increases. Here are the technical details which make the Signature Rendu sound better: 1. transformer is high quality Plitron Toroid, and it is cased in a sub-enclosure to guard against EM leakage.
2. the power supply is more robust, uses special ultra fast/ultra soft diodes, has more smoothing capacitance, and uses premium quality parts in all positions. 3. The Signature Rendu adds an additional output-reclocking board. This board holds the oscillators, the isolators, and the re-clocking and SPDIF/I2S output circuitry. This board is the key to the performance increase over the regular Rendu. The output board is isolated from all noise generated on the Ethernet receive board (high speed processor noise). On the output board clean clock signals are generated without interference from the Ethernet board. All signals are re-clocked just before output from the clean clocks.
OK, so how much difference sonically??? That is for the user to decide, as in all things with high end audio, there are diminishing returns: higher performance comes at a exponentially higher price. The original Rendu is very good, the Signature is better. The Signature is for the person looking for the best SPDIF/I2S source for their DAC, without compromise. Many people might be happy with the original Rendu. But do not listen to the Signature if you want to get the original.
I consult for Simple Design/Sonore. |
Mike Lavorgna did a great write up on the Sound Galleries room:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/lampizator-hq-player-audiopax-avante-garde-digital-done-right |
EA MM2 is great!!! Quite a Statement themself.
I heard both in the same room for 2 whole days... |
Please list the other 17 spakers you ruled out... |
Wow, quite a list. Thanks for the reply.
What did you think of the Kawero, Polymer, Zellaton, YG and Vivid? Those are the ones that strike my fancy best from the list.
Any plans to audition the Goldmund Logos, Boenicke W8, Acoustic Zen Crescendo II, and Franco Serblin Ktemas? |
Matt,
Franco Serblin was the original founder of Sonus Faber:
More chat here, including my opinion:
http://audioshark.org/speakers-10/franco-serblin-ktema-speakers-any-opinion-5258.html |
Matt,
BTW, thanks for the comprehensive summary. Good job.
Your opinion, so no need to agree or disagree. I only need to digest. Its a decent frame of reference.
The Polymer Masters cost a LOT more, but they may have solved the low end issue.
Another interesting speaker is the German Brand Fischer& Fischer. Made of special Granite, the cabinet give new meaning to the term, INERT. Heil tweeter used for the top end.
To go a bit further afield, The Austrian make Trenner&Friedl and the Italian Onda Liguera are 2 other quality contenders, as is the Greek Ypsilon brand. |
You can also look at Eficion, Lansche, Stenheim Alumine and Ref (love them), S-F Strads, Vienna Acoustics Klimt - The Music, etc...
I dont really like W-Benesche when I heard em...The Cardinals. |
Matt, since we are taking statement Loudspeapers, let's not forget: LumenWite Silverflame
Not cheap at £25K retail though
http://lumenwhite.com/silverflame_d_uk.html
" poland´s www.highfidelity.pl, one of europe`s most active high end audio webzines grants lumen white`s muenich high end 2015 show exhibit their "best sound of high end 2015" award.
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german high end magazine "hoererlebnis" features a detailed review of the"silver flame" monitors in their december 2007 issue, concluding:
"the lumen white silver flame monitor`s sonic superiority set them instantly apart from all other loudspeakers we know and let them win the hearts of all those, who love music."
key quotes from the review:
"the sound of the lumen white has a captivating, unbelievable ease, purity and airiness.
the music appears instantaneously, as if out of nowhere, in the listening room, free from any kind of colorations and cabinet resonances".
this quality caused instant fascination when the first lumen white speakers appeared years ago and here is the same fascination again. it also may be one of the reasons for the unprecedented success, which the brand has garnered around the globe."
"in smaller listening rooms, the speakers, while significantly smaller in size, deliver low frequency extension close to that of the few significantly bigger loudspeakers in the world which are able to reproduce the lowest of the bass registers with wall shaking realism."
"their capacity to recreate the musical event in a realistic and holographic way in the listening room may indeed represent the very edge of the art at the limits of audio technology"
"their sound breathes true life, offering musical realism of a magnitude which in fact may prove impossible to surpass."
"one could literally "see" the violin player silently nodding her head in the direction of the pianist"
"the silver flames achieve perfect musical homogeneity and do so without any softening of precision or glossing over of fine detail.
details down to the most subtle spacial clue are presented, are present without sticking out, are reproduced as fully integrated parts of the whole gestalt."
"wherein lies the key to the exceptional and unsurpassed transparency, realism, and ease of the lumen white`s`sound?
is it their use of an identical membrane material over the whole frequency band? is it a result of the unique cabinet design with its "damping free" technology? and, what role does their elegantly simple, but uncompomisingly fine, crossover play in this context?
while we are not able to solve this mystery, what we know for certain is that the lumen white silver flame`s sonic superiority set them instantaneously apart from all other loudspeakers we know and let them win the hearts of all those, who love music."
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http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/lumen-white-silver-flame-pound;25000/7582 |
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Matt, I see what you mean. I once had a looong chat with a Swiss selling only high end manufacturer called ROWEN. They make enormously powwerful amps and innovative speakers with a 5 octave band dRiver and a hf DRIVER CALLED LMT - which is somewhat similar of the Heil tweeter. Look em up at www.rowen.ch
The 90 min long conversation informed me of how much they hated bass reflex technology and how they designed for Swiss homes that are vault-like with poured concrete being the default building material, as compared to wood and dry wall in the US. Plus Swiss homes are much smaller on average, so ideal speaker placement is more difficuult. This means they designed their speakers to work in sub-optimal locations and demonstrated this to me in the show room by putting obstacle around the speakers that normally would mess of the stero image. in their case, it made little to no difference in the "real world" speaker placements they showed. Impressive.
Lumen White have the Artisan and the Aquila as well. They are pioneers in the use of ceramic drivers, and have won best in show at CES in the past and at other places too. Their turntable is to die for as well - The Mystere $60K.
Check em out as well. |
Matt, what about the Dyson bladeless fans?
Now I see why you fear tube gear...too hot for the musical dungeon? LoL
We are in total agreement about meeting audio buddies. So much fun...at least 50% of the joy in this hobby. |
Matt,
Thanks for the fan story...nice read and I have to agree with the conclusion.
For monitors, why not try a Vapor UberAurora as discussed here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133774.0
Their use of RAAL tweets on most models seems to be the Shizzle (sine AGear opened that door...LoL) and in the Uber, they use Beryllium tweets.
Vapor design thoughts here:
http://audioshark.org/vapor-audio-190/ask-ryan-7690.html#post132351 |
Yes, the Trenner&Freidl ART is lovely, as is their ISIS floorstander, but maybe would be too big for Matt's room. I think the Pharoah is a tad smaller.
Andreas Friedl is a nice guy as well who I keep running into at European shows.
For real Cachet value and a truly INERT enclosure: Try Fischer und Fischer...see write up here:
http://theaudiotraveler.com/2014/11/22/high-end-swiss-2014-fischer-fischer-speakers-and-mudra-akustics/
http://www.fischer-fischer.de/start.html
Check out the SN/SL570 AMT,770.1 AMT and the SL1000.
The ones with the AMT are the ones to get and it seems the 770.1 is the new flagship that goes down to 24db and has max SPL of 115db. They weight 160kg each!!! |
Cstooner, did you ever try TBI subs? |
Very fast woofers
Jan Plummer knows his stuff.
http://tbisound.com/dsp_products_subwoofers.asp
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound.asp
Now with TBI™ Bass Extension Modules you can match the speed of your mains precisely, with the room having a positive - supportive effect on the results. The driver is acoustically shielded from reflections allowing the room to support the bass in a positive way. Low frequency room treatments are typically unnecessary for a properly set-up TBI bass extension system.
The very low mass driver requires little diaphragm travel to produce long wavelength signals in this patent pending design. This combination of attributes provides a platform for fast launching of the low frequency waves. The hybrid alignment combines the best attributes of reflex and transmission line models and is the result of extensive research and development. The resulting products are setting a new precedent in objective bass quality and uniformity for high quality audio systems.
You will find a product compatibility chart at the bottom of each product page that will give you some guidance in choosing the right bass extension setup for your high quality audio system.
TBI and Vinyl |
So true Geardaddy, so true... |
Matt,
I didnt realize that Audio Consulting made speakers now. i thought they were mainly preamps and phono stages. i have standing invit for a demo and Dinner from Serge (from 2 years ago) and really should take him up on that. He seems to be a great guy.
I think the EA Micros are still available, but are due for a design refresh (IIRC from Herve). Lovely speakers that seem to lack nothing until you hear the MM mini 2s.
You should consider a Heil speaker with bottom ported woofer - The Kithara (with bass plate) - which you may be able to pick up cheaply 2nd hand in the US---perhaps below $5K...the tweeter is divine:
http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/id101.htm
http://precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm
The smaller Syrinx is bottom ported and if you dont listen at earthshattering levels, will work great for your small room as well.
Of the speakers in your list, I predict that the Boenicke or the Perfect 8s will win. |
EA Micro review:
http://stereomojo.com/Evoultion%20Acoustics%20MMMicroOne%20review/EvoultionAcousticsMMMicroOnereview.htm |
Guys, You REALLY all need to hear the Golden Gate. It blows the Big7 away...unfortunately for me. The DSD is simply unparalleled. A freaking digital turntable.
Its a Holy Crap dac that has a long break in time. Nothing seems to be beating those DHT -big bottle power amp tubes run under miniscule preamp loading.
The DAVE seems interesting, but really its all about implementation. Many manufacturers are raising the bar on the implementation front, as the basic science itself is well understood.
The good thing is that many roads will lead to Rome. |
