Now that is interesting, comments from actual D-sonic users. Looking forward to further experiences from them. |
So Mcbuddah and Jorge's D-sonics are Abletec based then?
ANy detail comparisons to any other amps in addition to those mentioned already are appreciated. Thx. |
McBuddah: It's great to hear your story. About a month ago, i bought the d-sonic 1200s. while the amp is still opening up, i couldnt agree with you more when you say that your system hasn't sounded this great! i am still in awe about what a 24 pound box did for my system. these amps are incredible.
Rock on! keep on rockin' !
jorge |
Hi McBuddah, your experience is fascinating...
It is particularly interesting that proper seating / mechanical isolation make a significant difference for such low mass devices as the D-Sonics amps.... Nice data pointer for any future fiddlings on my part.
Can you tell us more about the sonic evolution of the amps past the 300 hours mark, and at what point did they stabilize?
Can you comment on performance/sonic differences with your old Atma-Spheres?
G. |
Further adventures with D-Sonic m2 600m monos. Sorry about the long gap since I last posted about my efforts to fit these in as replacements for a well-loved pair of Atma-Sphere 100w otl's that had recently passed away after more than 20 glorious years of service. They had been purchased back when I had more money than time, but retirement has reversed that balance and I needed to find a new pair of monos that could fill their shoes in the system that had grown up around the OTLs. The remaining system reflects my priorities in balancing vinyl vs CD/SACD; MSRP for the vinyl side including cables, tweaks, stands is approximately $25k while the silver discs are handled nicely by an OPPO 95 with about $1k of accessories. Speakers are a near-mint pair of Sell B-Type 5-sided columns that are capable of playing magnificent bass into the very low 20's and do everything else quite nicely as well.
When last I posted, I had finally gotten the new amps burned in for several hundred hours when someone on this board suggested that they may need more than 1000. Not wanting to shortchange any readers out there, I chose not to post until they had been fully broken in, but I started critical listening sessions after about 300. There, the adventure really began. By the 300 hour mark, the amps sounded good enough to make me sit up and take notice that they were no joke despite their comically tiny size. They were entirely uncolored but the thing that really clamored for attention was how much more detailed they presented harmonics and how visceral the soundstage had become. It is this incredible ability to portray even the subtlest whispers of detail over the rest of the music playing (or mixed) that defines one of many areas where these amps excell. But, as any 'phile who has achieved this kind of transpanency knows, accurate, high-resolution reproduction is a 2-edged sword that reveals other problems previously masked. Thus began my series of adventures with these amps.
Installing these amps caused me to take a good hard look at all aspects of my system from set-up to VTA/SRA setup, and I had to rethink much of what i had previously believed about audio. They are so transparent that I could easily hear differences in VTA height, allowed by the JMW micrometer's smooth on-the-fly adjustments. I eventually began to measure the thickness of records before cleaning & playing, and I set the VTA mathematically for each. Later, while screwing around with some leftover brass footers and some isoblocks and oak shelves, I jury-rigged a pair of isolation platforms that really made the amps sing. The improvement was so stunning that I spent the next 4 months installing legitimate maple isolation platforms under every single component and power supply box. The amps now stand on 3 large brass footers to a 2" by 15" round maple platform that sits on 4 Mapleshade iso-blocks which sit on an 18" x .75" granite table mounted on a delightful faux French Provincial 12" fluted column that is now spiked through the carpet to the floor. There are 10 platforms in all, the prize being a 21"x27"x4" monster for the VPI SSM. These amps really respond well to vibration control and good cables. This fact was only briefly mentioned in passing in the 6Mooons review where his were set up on what turned out to be a $1k set of footers on Lord knows what kind of platforms. I ended up using a pair of PS Audio power cords that retailed for $1800 each, and a bi-wire set of silver ribbon speaker cables that cost well over the cost of the cables. Additional gains were had by experimenting with physically isolating different components and power supplies as far away from the amps as practical, and by severely reforming my cable-dressing practices.
In all, I have implemented more than 50 changes to my system set-up and usage procedures as I continue to try to maximize the joy and bliss that music coming from this rig brings. I would not have gone down this path had the D-Sonic amps so honestly pointed the way. I cannot hope to cover all in just one posting, but I am willing to focus on different aspects in further postings if anyone is still interested.
Apologies again for the long delay between postings. Please do not reply telling me that all the changes I made sounds like 50 excuses, I already know that. The real reason I have stayed away is that I would rather listen to the system than think about equipment. I can break out laughing or crying or get up and dance to some of my favorite records now. Sometimes I can't believe that my system sounds this good. For all the number freaks out there, the only scale I can think of that makes any sense to me is that my system sounds at least 2 or 3 times as good as I had ever imagined it could in my wildest dreams. |
"Apologies AudioZen, I am seeking your live opinion. If you have not listened to these amps at all and rely on third party reports, specs, and images of internals only, please let us know." (Guidocorona)
We have already asked him several times if he has listened to these class D amps or others which he criticizes (i.e. nCore), but it's obvious he hasn't as he always ignores these specific questions. So I don't take his comments on class-d amps (or other topics) seriously. |
OH... Why does D-Sonic favor Abletech in some models? If Pascal delivers higher power and is equally musical, where is the advantage of AbleTech modules for lower power implementations?
Do Pascal based and AbleTech based amps sound the same except for power rating?
Apologies AudioZen, I am seeking your live opinion. If you have not listened to these amps at all and rely on third party reports, specs, and images of internals only, please let us know.
G. |
Guido..I meant much larger power output then the Ncore set which puts out 1200 watts into 2 ohms and the Abletec puts out 2000 watts into 2 ohms. Application refers to Bruno's non linear design and Bostrom's ZVS (zero voltage switching) and his ADP,(Adaptive pole control)with his loop lineariztion technology. D-Sonic does not favor the Abletec over the Pascal for musicality in their models. As you are aware, Jeff Rowland is using a Pascal amp in his Continuum S2 integrated amplifier. The review on the D-Sonic M2 1500M amp using Pascal, in the September 2012 issue of 6Moons is very positive. Based on the tech sheets provided by Abletec, the maximum damping factor of the ALC 1000M amp used in the D-Sonic M3 600M and 1200S is 4000. |
Thank you Audiozen. If I interpret correctly, D-Sonics may be using Abletech when maximizing a design for musicality; conversely, they implement with Pascal when maximizing for power... Is this more/less correct?
Could you qualify the term "much larger", and explain "application"?
G. |
First Guido..pardon my assumption referring to you as a full time reviewer. Why Dennis uses both Abletec and Pascal is for one reason only, sheer power from the Pascal
and high power from the Abletec for most speaker applications. The ALS amp in the M3 600M and the M3 1200S is the most powerful amp from Abletec. The Pascal amp puts out much higher power and Dennis only recommends the Pascal in the M3 1500M for the most extreme speaker applications if you have a King Kong speaker that really needs that much power. The Abletec amp he uses sells more than the Pascal. The chief designer at Abletec, Patrik Bostrom, whom I discussed in a previous Gon thread, has developed an application called AMS,(Adaptive Modulation servo),which is a new loop linearization technology that is very similar to the application designed by Bruno Putzeys in his Ncore NC1200 amp. Both their applications resolve and eliminate the problems with past Class D designs such as phase shifting, feed back, distortion and noise. The Abletec provides a much larger power supply than the Ncore SMPS 1200 power supply for the NC 1200. |
Uhrn Audiozen, thank you for the staggering faith you have in the financial import of my scribblings... Regretably, my labors of love on PFO are only fit to fund tasty yet conservatively priced sushi rolls dinners three or four times a year, during 50% off days, for Mrs. C. and I. For the more mundane purpose of making a living, AT&T keeps me happily busy full time on arcane matters relating to FCC/CVAA.
In answer to your question, The lowest cost amp review project that I decided to submit for editorial review and eventual publication on PFO is the Bel Canto REF500 mono. A hypothetical D-Sonics project may be an interesting addition to my candidate queue. Conversely, I hope that you will share your findings on your very own D-Sonics amp with us before long.
Here is a question... D-Sonics appears to utilize both AbleTech and Pascal.... What criteria does D-Sonics apply when selecting between one of these two core module suppliers for its amps?
G. |
Audiozen, which class D amps have you really listened to? Have you actually listened to the D-Sonic and Ncore amps? |
I have not seen many users reviews or comments yet on how either Abletec or Pascal amps sound, much less compared to others. Technical advancements in design and execution is a good omen, but not enough alone to determine who the winners are or will be. It takes time usually before enough data points to estimate the true order of new things becomes apparent. |
Guido..since you are a online magazine reviewer, why don't you arrange for Dennis to send you a pair of the M3 600M's for you to review? After all, its what you do for a living.
Have you ever reviewed a low priced Class D amp with very high quality sound? |
Guido..Type in on Google search D-Sonic M2 600m and you will find near the top of the page a link to an excellent review on the Polk Audio Forum of the M2 600M's from January of this year. The owner burned them in for a month before posting the review. He's running them through a pair of KEF Q speakers. He removed the cover to show the interior. Excellent piece of work. I sent the interior pic to Dennis at D-Sonic and he confirmed that its the same Abletec mono amp thats used as a pair in the D-Sonic M3 1200S. Read the review. |
Audiozen, this is fascinating... How does your D-Sonic M3 1200S stereo amplifier sound like... Please share your experiences with us. Long suffering audiophrenic minds want to know! G. |
4orreal..I don't have a problem anywhere. Deeply involved as an Audiophile for 40 years, and having spent many years listening to tube and solid state gear in high end store sound rooms up and down the coast back in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, and having owned over ten audio systems, both tube and solid state, I think I have a pretty well seasoned handle on how to assess and evaluate very experienced Audiophiles and their reviews of their listening experiences with Class D amps. Why am I not on the Ncore band wagon and not a Bruno Putzeys groupie? I have already explained in a previous post that the Ncore NC1200 switching amp and the matching SMPS1200 power supply are not the leading cutting edge. Bruno was at the top of his game five years ago but during the past three years better designs have emerged at cheaper prices. Who is the current King of the Class D jungle? ABLETEC!! The finest and most powerful Class D amp on the planet are the Marten M-Amp mono blocks from Sweden. They weigh 100 lbs a piece and run cool. Costs is $45K a pair. These amps ain't for kiddies. The Marten's use Abletec switching amps. Erick Lichte reviewed the Marten's in Stereophile back in 2011 and described them as sounding like very powerful, rich tube amplifiers portraying voice's like Class A amps. The very best value for Class D amps on the market today is the D-Sonic M3 1200S stereo amplifier that uses two top of the line Abletec mono block amps in one chassis. The cost of the amp is a ridiculous $1675.00. The amp puts out 600 watts into 8ohms and 1200 watts into 4ohms. Don't piss $12,000.00 down the drain on a pair of Merrill Veritas amps that have a Ncore NC1200 and SMPS1200 which a set will cost you $1000.00 wholesale, which Merrill paid $2000.00 for two sets for a pair of his amps and doesn't have to dicount to retailers, indicates he's taking you for a ride and laughing all the way to the bank. Buy the D-Sonic instead and invest the remaining $10K to upgrade the rest of your system. I neglected to mention that many Audiophiles on Audiogon give very high praise to the sound quality of the current TEAC integrated amps that use Abletec. |
Audiozen,
The doctrine you are preaching here is what is good for Peter is good for Paul. In aduio, there's such a thing like that if you peronally know people whose ears you can trust. So you are saying what Paul and Peter have "heard" and are singing praises about is the same as what you have "not" heard and singping praises about are the same thing? I think you have a problem somewhere. If not, why can't you come onboard with the Ncore modules, since people are singing praises about them everywhere? Don't even bring the "price" issue because that is very subjective, because I have some friends who think the money they spend on driking (alcohol) is well worth it than the money I put in my audio system. |
I do go on forums and threads of many consumers who purchase these products and read their listening experiences which is basically the same thing if I gave you an opinion of what I heard. All of us are aware that its about the sound and not just about the technology. Its a combination of both. Since retailers are dying on the vine, I don't have the time to fly all over the country to all the high end shows just to listen to gear since I don't work for a mag and I'm not a reviewer. However, reading opinions of audiophiles on other forums besides Gon who buy Class D amps will still provide an accurate picture of the sound quality of these products. |
Thanks 4orreal ... so it's not just me thinking the exact same thing. |
Audiozen,
From what I gather from your postings, you seem to care more about the technology or the parts used in the amps you rave about than actually trying to listen to them and posting your impressions. While technology and quality of parts matters, I have come to realize that at the end of the day it's the execution and the "sound" that matters most. I think you will do us good if you make efforts to listen to the amps you rave about and share your impressions here. |
A recent phone conversation with Dennis Deacon at D-Sonic, he mentioned the M2 and M3 series top models use the same amps. Based on recent interior pics I came across, the M3 600M mono blocks are using Abletec amps and the M3 1500M mono blocks are using Pascal amps. |
Typo.."so many complaints"... |
Class D trivia..the world's first commercial manufactured Class D amp was from Sinclair Radionics in England in 1964. It was rated at 10 watts per channel but put out a lower number than the specs indicated. British magazine Wireless World had a article written to print on the amp but there was no many complaints from consumer's with reliability problem's that the article was withdrawn and the amp went out of production. |
Mapman..just a motivated consumer. I have always been intriqued by the 90% efficiency of Class D amps compared to 50% efficiency of a/ab amps that send a lot of wasted energy to the heat sinks. In 1958 there was testing done with pulse switching devices with poor results with current stability problems causing the test amps to blow up. When John Ulrick of Spectron owned Infinity speakers back in the late sixties with Arnie Nudell, he installed his first Class D amp into a Infinity sub-woofer in 1968. The rest is history. Regarding Wyred4Sound, EJ informed me back in 2011 that he was working on a new four piece Class D amp that would be part of the new Wyred4Sound Reference Line but unfortunately that project has been cancelled. |
Audiozen,
You seem to do a lot of research related to CLass D amps. Are you involved in teh industry in some way, or just a motivated consumer? Just wondering. Thanks. |
Thanks for correcting me Guido...my mistake..I'm aware of the 525 being bridgeable since
last winter and was thinking of it as a mono amp. Also, I was incorrect on the 125, just spoke to Brandon at Rowland and the 125 is using the latest generation of ICE from B&O and not Pascal as in the other two models. |
How are the good old and seemingly still quite popular Wyred Class D amps faring sound wise these days against the newer breeds?
I heard a newer Audio Research Class D amp at Lyric in NYC recently running a pair of mid sized Nola speakers.
The audition was too brief to draw any final conclusions but the sound was quite promising. Not sure I heard anything that uniquely distinguished it from others, but it seemed a solid performer. The Nola's were perhaps not quite my cup of tea in that I generally tend to prefer simpler designs with fewer drivers, so the overall coherency was not quite top notch IMHO based on the brief audition, but in lieu of more facts I would tend to not attribute that to the amp as much as the speakers. |
Apologies Audiozen... You may want to verify your hypothesis at the source... Unless things have changed in the last couple of months, M125 is not based on Pascal technology. There is an ICEpower module inside it. Furthermore, M525 is not purely a stereo amp... It officially supports bridging to monoblock operations.
G. |
I was referring to Rowland's current Class D amps only and the info provided by Brandon. Previous Rowland Class D amps using B&O ICE are out of production. Rowland currently only has three Class D models in production. The 525 and the 125 that are stereo Class D amps and the Continuum S2 integrated all using Pascal power modules. |
Uhrn... Audiozen, 'fore some further confusion is genrated... Fact is that Rowland is not using Pascal in any native mono amps at all at all at all. Conversely, Rowland has incorporated Pascal technology in one bridgeable amp the M525 ($4.5K), and in one integrated: the Continuum S2 ($9K). Hope you get one of them... I heard rumors that they sound very nice. |
Audiozen
Absurd=you
Snob=you
Know it all who thinks he knows it all=you
Agenda=you
Now substitute "Audiozen" were "you" are above. Wow, it really takes a BIG head to think you are a ZEN to us mere audiophools.
"swamp land in Puerto Rico" Really, again really were do you get your absurdity and no that was not a question.
Oh, and DO NOT CALL ME BRO! |
|
Chill out Bro..you need to put out the fire under your butt. Jealous? How absurd. I don't buy into anymore the audio snobbery that reviewers continue to perpetuate that you have to spend gobs of money to get the best performance
from an amplifier. That was true ten years ago but not today. Six months ago I had an extended conversation with Brandon at Rowland regarding Jeff using Pascal exclusively in his mono and integrrated amps. Rowland has indeed evaluated and tested different Class D amps including Ncore and chose Pascal. As I said, if you want to spend $12K for a pair of mono amps with a 22 lb. aluminium chassis with five lbs. of electronics in each, I have some swamp land in Puerto Rico I can sell you. Bruno is not the Messiah of Class D as many of his cult followers claims he is, who ignore the advancements of other Class D engineers who are on equal ground with Putzeys and have advanced further ahead as well. |
Here he goes again or should I say he does not hear!
"as well as the very innovative in house switching designs by DAT and their Cherry Ultra mono amps, Arion Audio, Nuforce and their Reference 18's, the DS450M from Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp,"
First I would like to point out it is "DAC" and not "DAT" and it is "Ultra Cherry". But hey, you have never ever actual heard them so why should you care.
Well the difference is I HAVE!!
I, unlike you, have heard the Cherry amps, the Arion amps, the NuForce amps, the ARC amps, the Spectron amps, oh wait you forgot those did you not, and many more! What, these are supposed to be NEW designs. Well the Arions are not that new, the Cherry not so much, and the NuForce, ah, not so much too.
I love how your SCREAM of the high price of the Veritas but make no such mention of the high price of the ARC and we all know the coming monos from Jeff Rowland will be pricey.
And REALLY, BINDING POSTS. And of a brand and type that has won high praise for the design and PERFORMANCE. It must have been a kick in the teeth when you fond out that EVEN A BLIND MAN had NO PROBLEM with THEM.
Now back to the fact that I have actual heard those amps.
All of them are very fine designs however the ARC IMO has the worst sound of the bunch. I can hear the "Class D sound". I was very disappointed because I like ARC and thought it was going to be my next amp. Oh wait these are the ones that, I quote you "Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp,". When are you and others stop with the "if it is bigger, has more in it, is complex design, etc, then it HAS TO BE BETTER BS! Sometimes less and simple SOUNDS BETTER, PERIOD!
I must say I was also very disappointed in the NuForce. I found it to be veiled. And also truncated in the highs.
The Arions are not bad for the money but again there is some limits on the sound.
The Cherry almost gets there. In fact I think many people would find something to like.
The Spectron, as a mono block only with the options, beats them all. It really does a fine job. But then we are around $12,000 so it better beat them all.
But it in no way, shape or form beats the Veritas or the Mola-Mola. I have not heard the Atsah yet.
Please keep in mind I have heard all of these against each other at times, in my system at times and in friends systems at times. Some more then once against each other.
I agree with Guido. And you can do better, you just need to spend a lot more or get a big, hot, heavy, eats electric, more expensive, Class A Pass Labs XA200.5 mono blocks.
REALLY WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THE VERITAS AND THE NCORE NC1200?
I MEAN OTHER THEN BEING JEALOUS.
BECAUSE IT REALLY SHOWS THAT YOU CAN NOT BE AND ARE NOT OBJECTIVE AT ALL.
|
Yessiree bob!!..gonna git me a pair of dem Veritas amps made from a solid billet of aircraft aluminum thats used by Boeing and Airbus!! Golly gee Ma..can we go to the airport right now?..If your one of those customers who got fooled buying a 22 lb. block of fancy aluminum with five pounds of Hype-X/Ncore innards for $12K a pair, than I have some great swamp land I can sell you in Puerto Rico. Just spent an hour on the phone with Dennis Deacon of D-Sonic, who has tested, listened and evaluated the Ncore amp modules as well as the models from Abletec, B&O, and Pascal. His team built a custom ordered amp for a customer with a Ncore amp module. Dennis states the Ncore amp from Bruno is a great amp but the Pascal is a superior design and a better performer and agreed that Bruno was at the forefront five years ago but not any more with with better innovative Class D designs that have emerged in recent years from other companies. The current M3 series from D-Sonic will give you better Class D performance than Ncore at a fraction of the cost if you don't mind the plain jane cabinet. Use a high quality power cord and your good to go. |
Well said Guidocorona. Thank you. |
Hi Audiozen, there are doubtless a number of worthy class D amps in the new generation.... I am looking forward to you examining a few up close in detail, and then letting us know your opinion on their actual sonic behavior. G. |
Bruno Putzeys during the past year has made the statement that his "Advanced Technology" with his newest Ncore/Hypex designs spins circles around other linear amplifiers on the market. Hmmm...sounds like Hype-X to me. That may have been true six years ago when the only challenge Bruno had to face were the designs from B&O and Tripath. He addressed the issues regarding feedback problems in the upper bands of those designs and the noise floor. During the past two years great advancements have been made as well by very bright engineer's with Pascal and Abletec, as well as the very innovative in house switching designs by DAT and their Cherry Ultra mono amps, Arion Audio, Nuforce and their Reference 18's, the DS450M from Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp, the Marten M-amp from Sweden is #1 for the largest power supply for a Class D amp on the market. 2013 is the most explosive year ever for new Class D amp designs, and I think Bruno's pair of Mola-Mola amps and his Preamp selling for $25K for the complete system is going to be a hard sell given whats on the market this year at a much lower price point which will yield the same performance results. |
Mapman, for all audible parameters, I comfortably prefer the performance of the simple implementation of Ncore NC1200 in Veritas monoblocks over the old/discontinued Rowland M312 based on a relative complex implementation of ICEpower 1000ASP. In turns, I moderately prefer M312 over Bel Canto REF1000M (Mk.2) monos, which I much prefer over any other ICEpower amps I have heard over the years.
The article touches on my preference of Veritas over old M312.
G. |
Have not rad article yet, but would love a compare of newer D-Sonics versus other more pricey newer Class D technology as well as against the current old guard of Icepower, etc. |
Hi AudioZen, I stand by all my favorable findings and conclusions in the article.
From a sonic point of view, I "judge the tree by its fruits", not by its roots... as Igor Stravinsky aptly recommended that we music lovers do back in 1946.
Granted, I am fascinated by amp innerds like anyone else, hence my relatively long treatment of Veritas internals. What will be interesting to determine is how different approaches to topology surrounding the NC1200 module in ATSAH, Veritas, Mola-Mola Kaluga, and Audience WavePower influence their sound. It is worth pointing out that Kaluga at least, does not use a stock NC1200 module, but a customized version.
How much of a "family resemblance" can be found in the audible attributes of these amps? I have no idea at this point in time.
Concerning Cardas connectors... Yes in a sense you are correct... Cardas output connectors may be a little fiddlier than other ones to operate. On the other hand, I am totally blind and am only mildly inconvenienced when fastening spade pairs to them. I can only imagine that a moderately operative pair of eyes would make the process close to painless. I recommend that if you want to use bananas, you may want to contact Merrill or Cardas and determine if Cardas2banana adapters can be supplied.
I agree with you... D-Sonic amps would make for fascinating review material. |
Another Class D amp to consider for review also is the Arion Audio MK 1000 mono amps. |
Guido..does the Veritas performance justify their ridiculously high price of $12K a pair? Phew!!
For the money, their Cardas knob type speaker binding posts
are hard to work with compared to the WBT five way posts on other class D amps which are better for locking banana's.
The new D-Sonic M3 800s that came out in recent months at 400 watts per channel and only $1375.00 would be a good amp for you to review as well or is its price to low to deserve the attention to review? |
Bravo Guido. Well written. Thanks for sharing. |
To add to the extant class D lore,
I have written a review of the Merrill Veritas monoblocks for Positive Feedback on issue No. 68:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
Once the amps were properly broken in with 1,000 hours of active operations, I did not detect any musical bandwidth limitations, nor any stereotypical class D artifacts with Veritas... I could hear only music.
The examination of further examples of new class D amps should confirm or disprove my hypothesis of class D designs having now grown up into general musical adulthood.
G. |
To be more specific, Rowland makes the new M525stereo: a 250W stereo amp bridgeable to 1000W mono operations. The device is based on Pascal power conversion modules with PFC integrated in the power supply... M525 has just started to ship. Continuum S2 is based on different Pascal modules, and is not shipping yet. |
As I already indicated..D-Sonic is using Pascal amplifiers in their newest models as well as Jeff Rowland using Pascal
in his new mono blocks and his new Continuum S2 integrated. So much going on this year with Class D including the anticipated Bel Canto Class D amp without switching transistors which has an original DC power supply. In the works for two years. First of its kind. |
So I asked Dennis about the difference an all he said was the the 3 is "newer technology". And that the 2 was ICE. He noted that the later 2's are also "newer technology". So now the 3's are officially not ICE, but what are they? |
Anyone have the new M3 D-Sonic or know what the difference is? |
