Bondmanp, so far I would say that the system is detailed, but not overly so. I don't feel it sounds bright. I think it only exposes bad recordings that are artificially loud with poor dynamic range. But then again, the complete system is new, so I could not specify each component contribution to the overall sound. |
Thank you, Carlos. I am still about a year away from pulling the trigger on a new amp, but with D-Sonic's restocking fees, I am looking for any impressions by owners I can find. Please keep us posted as the amps break in. When you say they are not too forgiving of bad source material, does that mean you find them very detailed, which would be a positive, or do you mean they are on the bright side of neutral, which would combine with bright, edgy recordings to produce unpleasant results? |
Just wanted to share my impressions with all of you.
I finally jumped on the bandwagon and got a pair of D-Sonic M2-1500M monoblocks.
The thing is, I put together this new system just for stereo, so I cannot compare the changes that the amps would have made to any previous chain. The system currently consists of: Oppo BDP-105 + Marc Audio XLR Premium interconnects + Two D-Sonic M2-1500M + GLS Audio speaker cable (12AWG) banana finish + Dynaudio Contour S5.4 speakers.
I am very pleased with the sound of the system, although the room might be tricky because it is roughly 7x5 meters, with a semi-wall in the middle (a 2.5 wall along the 5 meter axis). Very good bass response, no need for subwoofer, very detailed, good transients. I think it is not as forgiving with bad recorded music. Just about 30 hours of use, though.
Feel free to submit your comments and/or questions.
Cheers,
Carlos |
Mcbuddah
How are you going with your D-sonic? still happy, any impressions?
All the best
Miki |
Mcbuddah...Any news about the m2 600 monos?
I use an Audio Research vt 100 mk2 amp which I like a lot,
but wouldn´t mind more power.
I read about tube guys who went class-D with satisfaction.
Thanks for any input. |
"Interesting to note that even with the sound quality of Class D amplifier circuits continuing to improve, Rowland still chooses to design their best reference grade power amps using their very advanced switched mode power supplies with Class A/B output stages."
Probably a smart move. Not all high end audio guys are willing to accept or care for Class D amps. Class A/B amps of course can also sound good and physically more imposing as well. They also will probably have to cost a lot as well to match Class D performance being lower efficiency. Does that mean they are better? I suppose it depends. Dunno. |
Interesting to note that even with the sound quality of Class D amplifier circuits continuing to improve, Rowland still chooses to design their best reference grade power amps using their very advanced switched mode power supplies with Class A/B output stages. |
I'd be curious to know what "mods" Roland and others do with Pascal amps. With Icepower, the "mods" make all the difference. I would expect newer generation Class D modules to be much better out of the box to start, at least on paper. |
As I recently indicated in another thread, Jeff Rowland has
jumped on the Pascal band wagon with two new Class D products that will be released in several weeks. Brandon Kelley at Rowland recently confirmed to me that Pascal is used in the new Continuum S2 Integrated at $9500.00 and the
new 525 class D stereo amp at $4500.00 which can also be ordered as a pair of mono's for $9000.00. With the mods that Jeff has added to the Pascal amps, results in a better
performing product than the ICE amps that Rowland has used in the past. These products can be viewed in the new 2013 Rowland Catalog which can be downloaded from their site. |
Also, there's more to a Class D amp than just the power module. There are input stages, power supplies, yadda, yadda. The proof is in the hearing. That 6 Moons review was pretty impressive and thorough, IMHO. |
Pro audio would seem like a very practical application for class d amps. Efficiency is usually paramount there.
If it works well and sounds good, then that js the main requirement for home audio. The proof or not would be in the listening. |
Reading the documentation at Pascal website, I can only find example applications of inboard amplifiers for pro audio loudspeakers.
Assuming that the D-Sonic amp is using this module, what do you think of using this amp for home (audiophile) audio?
I hope you can share your thoughts. |
Reading the documentation at Pascal website, I can only find example applications of inboard amplifiers for pro audio loudspeakers.
Assuming that the D-Sonic amp is using this module, what do you think of using this amp for home (audiophile) audio?
I hope you can share your thoughts. |
Hi Vladimir, of course you are right, an amplifier can justify its existance only on its audible performance. On the other hand, D-Sonic is utilizing some very innovative technologies to achieve its price/performance goals... And that is a fascinating topic as well. G. |
Abletec? Pascal? Isn't the OP reflecting about the sound re the great 6moons review? How about the biggest bang for your buck? |
Mapman, at this point it is still all conjectural. The pics posted on 6moons or other sites may or may not reflect current production. I am not aware of any official statements by D-Sonic about the suppliers and modules used. The D-sonic site is unspecific about the subject:
http://www.d-sonic.net/products/mono/
G. |
If you look at the pictures and compare the data, you can conclude the D-Sonic is using the Pascal X-PRO1 in their M2-1500M amp. (with their own input board, mainly for impedance matching I assume) |
So is it confirmed or not that the D Sonics use vanilla Pascal amps? No differences? |
Per the comparison table at
http://www.pascal-audio.com/amplifier-modules.html
the power rating of M2-1500M appears to be outwardly consistent with the Pascal X-PRO3 module. |
If you look at the pictures from the 6moons review, it's quite clear that the M2-1500M is using the Pascal board and NOT the Abletec! |
Never mind... I am brain-dead... here is the URL for Pascal Audio.... Easy to find once I googled the right words:
http://www.pascal-audio.com/
If indeed D-Sonic uses both Abletech and Pascal, It would be fascinating to discover what are the audible differences between D-Sonic amps based on Abletech, and D-Sonic amps based on Pascal.
G. |
That is very interesting Audiozen. Would you mind posting the URL for Pascal? I have not discovered it on my own yet. |
Guido..thanks for bringing to my attention in the Merrill Veritas thread the correct spelling of "Pasquale", which is Pascal. As I indicated in the Merrill Veritas thread, the Pascal class-D amps on the Pascal website and the photos on Google images are identical to the amps inside the D-Sonic models. Abletec in New Jersey stated that D-Sonic is using Abletec which may well be in a certain D-Sonic model, but the interior pics of the D-Sonic top models are definitely Pascal judging by the photos. |
Guido...for the moment, the Pasquale power module is so new that it is not available to anyone. Jeff is the first to use it and has an exclusive on the amp. I was told that a former ICE engineer is the designer. It wouldn't surprise me if Rowland is doing financial backing for this engineer. I noticed you just started a thread on the Continuum Series 2 on What's Best Forum. Look forward to see how that develops. |
Hi AudioZen, I readily admit that am extremely fond of the creations of both Jeff Rowland and John Stronczer of Bel Canto.... Fact is that these people are true audio electronic engineers and audio circuit designers, rather than modders. Class D power conversion modules are components... With them you can derive a very basic amplifier implementation, or a sophisticated circuit that instantiates the sonic/musical philosophy of the designer.... Rowland, Stronczer, and ARC engineers, just to name a few, are definitely in the latter camp.
On the other hand, each product can only justify itself in the music it produces... hence, until I hear a well broken-in Continuum S2, I will not know if Mr. Rowland has scored yet another bull's eye.
By the way, do you happen to know which Pasquale power conversion module has been utilized inside the new Continuum S2?
G. |
Guido..Its mentioned on the Rowland website that the discontinued Continuum 500 also used the Capri circuit. I checked out many interior photo's of the Continuum 500 and was amazed how extensive the mods were. Two circuit boards stacked on top of each other. The ICE amps were upside down and accessed from the bottom. The top board has a dozen large power capacitors and two filter caps. The most extensive mods I've ever seen using ICE amps. Way beyond the mods in the Bel Canto's. If the mods are just as extensive with the Pasqualle Class-D amps, and the sound quality is superior as told by Rowland, it will more than likely turn out to be the best integrated on the market due to Jeff's perfectionism. |
Hi AudioZen, as far as I know, Continuum S2 will be priced in mid $9K for its basic version, and will still shy below $10K for the versions that incorporate the optional DAC card or the optional Phonostage card.
I have since learned that the preamplification circuit of Continuum S2 is based on the new Capri S2 preamplifier... I Also heard that the Capri S2 circuit, as well as the DAC card, were developed in an engineering collaboration with Danish company Holm Acoustics. |
Hi McBuddah, yes please keep us posted on how the M2-600M amps break in.... Unless the Abletec modules behave tremendously different from old ICEpower, you may expect a 600 hours to 1200 hours of music making before they reach peak and yield their very best. G. |
There is no way for me to know how far along they are in the burn-in process because they were demos and not absolutely brand new. Mr. Deacon had loaned them out to someone for a short while. I would like to put at least 250 more hours on them before doing too much critical listening, but it's hard to resist the urges to pop up and fix something I know is wrong. Last night I listened to a Japanese reissue of Jon Faddis' 1976 "Youngblood" album where he works out with Dizzy's rhythm section. At the very end of Gershwin's Prelude # 2 there is a massive crescendo. While Jon is blowing away like the angel Gabriel, Micky Roker ends the piece with massive cymbal crashes whose transients sound all crumpled up in the in the mix with the horn. The last 5 seconds of the tune almost set me to packing up the amps for an airplane ride back to Texas. I went at it again today and figured out that my VTA was set imperfectly even though I thought I had nailed it months ago. I dialed it in again after a few hours of really hard work listening to more records and all is fine again. It seems to me that these amps are so revealing and play so cleanly at high volumes that very small changes in tonearm/cartridge geometry are easily heard. Obviously, these amps are not a drop-in replacement in my system and will require a lot of TLC to sound their best. |
Mcbuddah..please keep us informed on your progress with the D-Sonic amps. Of course, only having them burned in for four days, you have a long way to go and are in for a real treat based on the 6Moons review last September. After extensive burn in, 6Moons described the amps as more organic and full, with much smoother, more laid back high frequencie's, then other class D amp's they have tested, and found them closer to tubes then previous Class D design's. I'm certain in two weeks the amps will settle down and fall into their true character and look forward to your on going impressions in the next several weeks. |
Guys,
Since the original thread went off in a different direction, I wanted to keep off the path!
However the latest comment from AZ made me take the bait ;-)
Class D is very different from other classes, if it does not have a few zeros after the decimal point, one has to seriously consider the product. It's specs should be near perfect!! Since class D is doing everything else other than amplifying, spec are out most important. Not that it's not impossible, but knowledge is power! You don't want the manufacturer to just dump a product. In many cases such as tubes it's very easy to "create" a circuit and >50% of the time it will sound good. SS maybe <50%, but will sound acceptable. But with class D is a much smaller chance, and " we". want them to make the right choices. Class A is stuck for a few decades, only new tech in linear amplification recently I hear is from Siltech! Class D is progressing!! Tubes, of course is the golden standard.
Regards, |
Thanks Guido fot the info..very excited for the Series 2. Have a feeling that Jeff just may hit one out of the park on this one. Any clue on the MSRP? |
AudioZen, by pure coincidence, I received today some additional specs for the class D Rowland Continuum Series 2 integrated amplifier.
CONTINUUM Series 2
Integrated Amplifier OUTPUT POWER: 400W @ 8 ohms/800W @ 4 ohms
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 5 Hz - 70 kHz, -3 dB @ 8 ohms
THD + NOISE: 0.05%, 20 Hz - 20 kHz
INPUTS: 2 pair balanced (XLR) 2 pair unbalanced (RCA) 1 pair unbalanced bypass (RCA)
OUTPUTS: 1 pair balanced (XLR) 1 pair unbalanced (RCA)
WEIGHT: 35 lb / 15.9 kg
DIMENSIONS: 5.3" x 15.5" x 15.0" 135mm x 394mm x 380mm
The device will come in three configs: basic, or with additional DAC card, or with additional phono card. |
I bought the demo M2-600M monoblocks from D-Sonic. I have been listening to them for 4 days now and they already far exceed my expectations. I am still juggling around power cords and screwing around with component placement now that these tiny boxes freed up a huge chunk of turf behind my speakers. I'm using these in a music only system that has recently suffered a catastrophic OTL amplifier failure. I can't afford to fix the amps and am hoping (like a QB throwing a Hail Mary at the last second) these new-fangled class D amps may offer at least some of the magic I used to have.
Due to all the setup issues I still need to plod through until I know I have done my best to hear them at their best, I can't honestly compare them meaningfully to a pair of amps I have had for nearly 25 years the cost then 4x as much as these. At this early stage, I will say that I already know there is a lot of magic in these things and I suspect that I haven't heard them at their best yet. I believe that they may be the most transparent and revealing amps I have ever heard and that they will be ruthless about reproducing everything good or bad in from of them in the chain. I suspect they may get me closer to the correct VTA & azimuth settings. Very musical, bass power and articulation that just don't quit, gorgeous reproduction of strings and horns, All are right up there, but they are not tube amps. After the first two nights with them, I realized that part of the "tubiness" I was missing had nothing to do with the sound of the amps or even with the sense of hearing at all. I Missed the heat and the orange glow - sight and touch senses. I rectified that with a couple of candles and turning up the room temp a couple of degrees. I think I will suggest to Dennis to throw a few lumps of charcoal and some candles in the box whenever he is shipping an amp to someone who whines about it not having tubes.
If you guys want, I can come back with more observations about the amps as they get settled in. I am really excited about these amps filling some really big shoes in my system. |
I noticed on B&O's ICE power website that they are in need of engineers and are taking job applications. I found out this morning that the new Pasquale Class-D amps that Jeff Rowland will be using are designed by former B&O engineers. |
True..but John Stronczer at Bel canto does extensive mods and upgrades to correct that problem. As a stock amp, the problem is their and can only be corrected with additional filters and shielding. The newer stock designs from Abletec and Hypex don't have that problem and the in house class D devices from Audio Research and Nuforce seem to overcome those issues as well. B&O ICE amps have been in production since 1999, and recently companies such as Jeff Rowland and D-Sonic have dropped B&O in favor of newer Class-D engineering that is more advanced with less technical problems. |
"It appears that B&O has not moved beyond pulse width modulation, which is the area that amp enigineers have focused on in recent years claiming that PWM has hit its limit regarding the problems with PWM such as feedback and noise in the upper frequencies, as well as RFI/EMI problems. "
I wonder if B&O or other engineers still dealing with it would agree that PWM has hit its limit? No surprise the competition would claim that.
I can vouch that Bel Canto ref1000m Icepower based amps do very well in regards to RFI/EMI. I have had those problems in the past. THe Class Ds would not be in my system if that had turned out to be a problem. There are many Class D amps out there, including ones that use stock Icepower, that have been reported to have that issue, but apparently it is not terminal for all Icepower amps. |
It appears that B&O has not moved beyond pulse width modulation, which is the area that amp enigineers have focused on in recent years claiming that PWM has hit its limit regarding the problems with PWM such as feedback and noise in the upper frequencies, as well as RFI/EMI problems. The only Class-D company that has fallen by the wayside and gone out of business was TriPath. Abletec, Hypex and the others are doing very well. Lets see whats in store for Pasquale. It appears based on my discussions with these company sources, that newer, alternative modulating techniques have resulted in zero feedback, much better linearity, and lower noise bringing Class-D much closer to the very best Class A and A/B SS and tube amps. |
Not all B&O icepower modules are the same. Some are newer, some are older. SOmetimes, different ones are used in teh same line at same time, like BC ref500m versus ref1000m.
Have not kept up on new Icepower development though. Have they stopped refining Icepoweer at this point? Certainly there is more and more competition all the time now it seems, which is to be expected. The landscape might be totally different in just a few years. Not uncommon for companies that forge new frontiers to fall by the wayside over time as others follow. |
Since this thread is focused on Abletec/D-Sonic, as well as Hypex and other's, another newer Class-D switching technology just popped up. Phew!! hard to keep up with.
The Jeff Rowland Group had a private showing of their new Class-D integrated amp at CES, which is called the Continuum Series Two. No longer using B&O Ice Amps that where in the Continuum 500. The new integrated will be using the new Pasquale Class-D amps, exclusive only to Rowland. Rowland said at CES they are far superior to the B&O ICE technology. The integrated will be released in April and will put out 400 watts into 8 ohms. |
Interesting Henry..I noticed your Fire preamp has a very low output impedance of 20 ohms, which matches perfectly with your amps. Never seen a Preamp with an output impedance that low. |
Audiozen,
Thanks for the interest. Yes 8k input impedance is low but not too terrible low. One has to be a bit judicious in choosing the preamp. Of course, most if not all solid state preamps will drive the amp fine. The only exception is those with open loop design and/or some tube units. Changing input impedance is certainly an option but I'm not equipped to work with surface mount components. But more importantly, Raising the impedance would introduce more noise, plus I like to keep the original designer's intent of how it should sound. I have not tried either Abletec or the Hypex, though I have customer who have listened to the Hypex Ncore so I have a very good idea of how they sound. I have intention of getting a couple the Hypex Ncore to try but discourage as the lead time is exceeding long, plus the fact that that the modules are extremely expensive so I have put it off so far. Someday I might try it. So currently I'm still using the Ice modules without the integrated switching mode power supply. I use traditional linear power supply for my design. |
Hi Arthursmuck, I reside in the State Capital.... Just sent you a PM with more info. Guido |
Henry..I thoroughly read through your site last night and all the reviews. I noticed you amps have an input impedance of only 8000 ohms. Wow thats low! Never seen an amp below 10K ohms. Curious as to why you don't adjust the input stage to raise the input impedance to make it easier for Preamps to drive your amps. Have you explored the recent developments of alternative current modulation from Abletec and Hypex, and do you have any plans to use their products in the near future, or do you think their approach to alternative modulation is nothing more than snake oil? |
Guido, where are you in TX? |
Henry...my apologie's..your back online and now in Texas..Giddyup!! |
AudioZen and all, ICEh2oaudio.com is back online at:
http://iceh2oaudio.com/
Henry's current phone number is listed as:
1 713 371 7591
which indicates that Henry has moved West, and now resides in my state of Texas.
may I now gently suggest that we return this thread to the discussion of technical merits of Abletec and other new generation class-D power conversion modules, to their application to actual amplifier components, and to the findings of those who have had an early chance of listening to such creatures.
Regards, G. |
Bill-k...give me a break..Henry's website is currently offline for sometime and his phone number is disconnected which is a very strong buisness indication that his business is stressed. When a company fall's off the radar it becomes a ghost business, and the result is a much greater risk for the buyer to get reliable service from a business that has very weak stability. If Henry comes back online and things go back to normal, then more power to him. |
Audiozen,
All is good now. Thank you all who alert me to the website problem. |
Mapman,
Agree!!
Just thinking aloud, since no one has come forward with their experience.
Another thing that is possible- considering phase is manipulated, there is a fixed frequency window - band width limited (which may be the case in PWM as well). However as my understading goes, there might be an error correction factor needed, may not be the tradional negative feedback, but maybe along the phase wave. Negative feedback if institued properly is generally a nonissue. Probably that's why it's called SOA, where all parameters are optimized. |
