Assessing different technical approaches for Class D seems to me like a technical assessment of ice cream, chocolate versus vanilla. You can read and analyze all you want but won't know what you have exactly until you try it. Often the case with home audio gear. Each company has its own design or marketing focus to help distinguish from the pack. Fun stuff!
D-SONIC SOA Class-D Core Amps. The best Class-D ?
Owner/Designer Dean Deacon of D-Sonic in Houston in recent months dropped using the B&O ICE amps which he now only uses in the surround channels of his multi-channel home theater amps. He now uses a new Class-D amp in all of his Magnum2 mono and two channel amps which he states is the most technically advanced Class-D amp on the market, called the SOA Class-D core amps. The recent review in 6Moons of his new M2-1500M amp concludes its the closest that Class-D has ever come to tube amps in the upper mid-range and high frequencies.
Anyone bought or heard recently the D-Sonic M2-1500M or the M2-600M? What are your opinions?
Anyone bought or heard recently the D-Sonic M2-1500M or the M2-600M? What are your opinions?
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Henry..last time on the subject..want to stay focused on D-Sonic/Abletec. Discovered that IceH2oaudio.com ISP is hosted by Covad Communications which was bought out by Megapath Communications. Called Megapath and they do not have IceH2oaudio in their system and informed me that its a domain name that is available to purchase. The current location for IceH2oaudio.com is in Lutherville Timonium, Maryland. Ring a bell?.. |
Audiozen, I find that to be an unreasonable and thoughtless statement. I have absolutely no connection with Henry or his company, but his business may be doing fine with sales from other sources than Audiogon. There are many major audio companies that do not do any business here, and that fact doesn't mean that they are struggling to survive. |
Deadlyvj..my intent starting this thread, was to engage those who may have experienced D-Sonic, with the emphasis as Guido points out, on the Abletec amp modules, which are just now being recognized as an alternative to B&O and Hypex. So far, it appears at the moment not very many have experienced D-Sonic and Abletec, since I was hoping to get a much greater response. Now that the holiday and CES is over, I hope this thread will increase reply activity on Abletec, and if this thread winds up becoming a "Class-D Cafe", thats a good thing to... |
Hi Deadlyvj, my personal apologies for the unwitting contributions to the temporary derailment of the thread. One of the problems is that, Abletec modules being only recently introduced in component design pipelines, not too many major designers of switch mode amplifiers have introduced products based on these power conversion modules. As the initial batch of Abletec-based amplifiers reach consumers, and more manufacturers adopt these power conversion modules, I am hopeful that we will start to see real findings, hopefully on this thread. |
Henry, I have tried Guido's link using Chrome and it fails with the error: "Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to www.iceh2oaudio.com". I suspect that you may be accessing a page in your cache and that's why some of the other links don't work. I think you need to address this with your hosting provider as there is obviously something wrong! |
I'm not sure what is going on but It works fine for me. What browser are you gents using? I use google chrome. However I just notice that some of the link is not working. Links to all the reviews next to pictures seem to work but not for the pictures to get the specifications. Guido when I click on your link you provided, it does take me to website's homepage fine. But like I said, some links just doesn't work. Looks like I need to talk to my web hosting provider. Thanks Henry |
Henry, you may want to contact the friendly business people at Audiogon, because H2O Audio info page seems to be obsolete: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/manu.pl?h2oaudio&1&showmanu&Ice+H2O+Audio * Phone number has still Virginia area code; * Link to web site is dead; * Company is listed under "I"... Shouldn't it be listed under "H"? Saluti, Guido |
Audiozen, The Website has been running fine for awhile now. It used to have a few problems but that had been corrected. I just google it and it came up fine. The 804 area code is when I was still in virginia. The current website has my current contact info. oh BTW, the H2O is still the best class D but of course LOL! Just kidding there :-). |
Thanks for the correction H2o..I read on a forum from 2010 that Henry went belly up. Tried to go to the IceH2o site and it was off line. Called the east coast phone number at the 804 area code for H2o and was disconnected. What is the current website address? No current site comes up on Google...the on going site address in the past was IceH2oaudio.com..nothing there.. |
Ahem. Audiozen, just want to set the record straight and that is H2O AUDIO has been and still is around...Alive and kicking :-). H2O have never went out of business. Not sure where you read that but I just want to set the record straight. And thank you for the praises. While I still have all of your attention :-) I'm willing to send a stereo H2O amp with all the latest and greatest tweak for a tour if anyone or a group of you is interested. Thanks |
Whats the point?..Stratehed..check your tickets..I think you got on the wrong Airplane..the main focus of this thread is to highlight the engineering advancements in Class-D topology during the past several years such as in house designed switching devices from Abletec, Nuforce, Audio Research, Philips/Hypex, and how these variations of pulse modulation methods have improved the sonics of Class D amps compared to the more traditional PWM amps that have been around for years. The biggest Class D brute on the market is the Marten M-Amps from Sweden using Abletec amps. They have massive power supplies and very large transformers, weigh a 100 pounds each, run cool and cost a whopping $40K a pair. I dig as deep as possible speaking to engineers from a variety of companies, but the most reliable source to get the most honest and accurate assessment of these products is not from the magazines, but from the many Audiophiles who purchase these products and give their evaluations on many forums and threads on sites in Europe, Asia, and the States that are just as well respected as Audiogon. I communicate on these sites daily as well as other Gon members to get a much broader picture of the current landscape of high end audio. I predict that the most talked about and exciting Class D product of the year will be the new Theta Prometheus Class D amp which has been delayed but should be available shortly. It was sad to see Ice H2O go out of business because Henry Ho's Class D amps with major upgrades with his large transformers and large capacitor banks were very promising. |
Audiozen, I'm not challenging your exuberance for your D-Sonic, any other class D amplifier, or your anticipation of what they might become. I'm on my fourth switching amplifier myself. Yes, I want my tube amps to sound like tube amps yet there are some tube designs that are voiced to extremes that do not appeal to me. No, I don't want my studio monitors rolled off at the extremes or embellished at any point in between which is why I'm thrilled with the truly proprietary design nCores. Currently there is a fundamental difference in distortion characteristics between tube and solid state, weather it be linear, switching, hybrid, or using DSP modeling, as I mentioned earlier. I'm somewhat pessimistic that this will ever be overcome. On the other hand if it is then I agree, the maintenance of a tube amplifier will become an important factor for many tube users to switch to what many consider the class D'ark side. I will be one of the first to do so. |
With all due respect, the OP asked if anyone had bought or heard a couple of amps in the D-Sonic SOA line. I have been following this thread and so far it appears that the only firsthand experience - with another highly touted amp - came from Wilsynet regarding the Hypex NCore based modules. He goes on to discuss personal amplifier experiences / comparisons; and that provides a credible point of reference. So what's the point? Not to jump in the middle of a p---ing contest, but to say that my experience has been that unless one has the opportunity to hear a piece of gear and determine how that product meets their particular tastes ... everything else is pure conjecture and opinion. I have spoken with a number of audio company owners and amp designers; and there was not one who did not think that his product was better than anything else at or near the same price point. In fact they almost always cited higher priced equipment that theirs outperformed and/or replaced. I respect that. There were also a few who put the product in my hands to try out ... some costing a few thousand dollars. Some of it got sent back. That's the nature of the audio hobby. Higher end specialty audio is basically one of the last remaining "cottage" industries. It's generally a one-person show. A number of companies started within the last few years are doing quite well now. The free trial is what they invariably have in common. So am I alone here? Has anyone else read the glowing reviews, followed the latest industry news, gotten caught up in the hype and buzz of a particular product or design only to be less than satisfied when you got it installed in your own system? Perhaps D-Sonic should sponsor a "tour" the way a number of companies do when they want to introduce something new. That would be one path to determine how well it really compares to other amp designs in general and to Class-D in particular. Or they could drop the "restocking" fee so that folks could post real listening impressions here and elsewhere. IMHO that would be more useful. |
Looks like TEAC is using Abletec as well in their new line: http://audio.teac.com/product/ai-501da/ The other two components aren't too shabby either. Who would have thought? All the best, Nonoise |
The thing with D-sonic is they are merely packaging stock Class D component amps, both Icepower and now abletec. They appear to have upgraded the components they use to do so these days compared to prior when IcePower only, at least as described for the abletec. DDs background as he describes seems in line with that. HE is not an amp designer so not likely to add circuitry to whatver component amp board they use, Ice, abletec or otherwise. Stock icepower is clearly inferior to enhanced versions from BC, Wyred and others with beefed up power supplies and input boards to make tube amp friendly. Stock icepower is not tube amp friendly for example at 10K input impedance. abletec input impedance is closer to that of Wyred for example now as I read ie somewhat less than 60K ohms, that is a clear advantage over stock Icepower. There may be others based on new technology used. So be careful comparing stock Icepower to enhanced versions to other perhaps newer Class D designs. Each has significant differences. M-sonic alone using stock Icepower amps is not a good indicator of what IcePower can do. I did a lot of research prior to springing on BC ref1000m amps, including d-sonic. The devil is in the details. New d-sonic amps are interesting as noted. I would expect them to outperform stock icepower in some cases like with tube pre-amps. Harder to call at present for other cases. Time will tell. |
Spoke to Rich today, who runs the Abletec branch office in New Jersey, he's currently at CES. He confirmed that indeed D-Sonic is using Abletec amps. He also mentioned that Parasound is premiering at CES a four channel amp using Abletec Class D modules. The amp is the ZM-Quattro. A four channel amp that puts out 90 watts per channel. |
It is worth considering that the sound of an amp is the product of the entire execution: design (or topology) ranging from the basic to the complex and exotic, choice of active and passive components, boards, dyelectrics, soldering ranging from handmade point-to-point to computer-assisted surface mount, as well as final construction/assembly. That's why no amp models ever sound alike, and often do not cost alike, even when they are based on the same core technology, be it 6550 tubes or ICEpower 1000 ASP power conversion modules. Concerning amps based on the new Abletec power conversion modules, it will be fascinating to listen to what is achieved by a variety of designers and manufacturers, who will inevitably apply their unique ingenuity, design philosophy, and market / pricepoint targeting to their particular amplifier creations. Saluti, Guido |
Nasaman...you obviously have not read through this thread to discover that three years ago D-Sonic was only using the B&O ICE amps in their two channel and mono amps and have switched to the Abletec amps from Sweden in 2011. Read the review from last September in 6Moons on the new D-Sonic M2-1500M mono block amp. Very positive. You can access the review on the D-Sonic website. |
THis would be an interesting trial application for Steve at Empirical Audio's affordable reclocker gadget. That should help assure being in a good place from a jitter perspective I would expect. HE offers a free trial period. I would be interested to know if it helps. Synchro Mesh |
"there are inherent proplems wirh pulse modulation type Class D amps regarding linearity and feed back in the upper bands that compromise music quality" Maybe. I am not expert enough to say. I believe Class D amps can get even better than current certainly in that the technology is not fully mature. Then there is always theory versus realization which are not equivalent. Not everything newer is necessarily better. DD would seem to be the only source of info so far. Truths become apparent over time with greater exposure. We'll see. I would like to learn more though and find the d-sonics an even more interesting product now than before. Many already consider even current generation Class D amps to be reference quality and competitive there (I would agree based on experience to date) though I am of the opinion that no technology is perfect or certainly equivalent. The subjective descriptions of teh sound of these amps versus current better Icepower designs so far indicate differences in sound for sure, which is not surprising. Lots that goes into what is "better" and what individuals prefer. Too early in the game to know for sure with D-sonic I would say though again a most interesting and competitive product at this early stage. |
Oh..so you want your tube amps to sound like tubes..but you don't want an analog Class D solid state amp to sound like tubes..Hmmmm..my..just about any tube fanatic on the planet would put their tube amp in storage or sell it if a solid state Class D amp reached a level of full tube quality. There would be no turning back. |
It's the way tubes distort not their lack of distortion. Regardless of how unmeasurable a solid state devise is, generally its characteristic is still odd order. It's the same with switching or processing amps. Were class D is about to become superior is in the realm of digital playback. A digital source and something like the Devialet were there is much less conversion taking place and the absence of cabling lowering the chances of jitter. Most linear solid state amplification has a tendency to get congested and more fatiguing as demand increases which is why they build massively powerful amps. The very first thing I noticed with my first switching amp was it seemed to maintain stability right up to its threshold which was way more power than I would ever use. Since I use tube amplification in my predominately analog system the last thing I want is the switching amps powering my studio monitors to sound like tubes. |
Hmmm...what makes Tube Preamps so special? The bottom line..Tube Preamps exalt at creating an exotic, ultra smooth, seductive, full, three dimensional "FLOATING MIDRANGE", that solid state has yet to achieve until now. Audio Design Engineer Robert Koch, who specializes in exotic tube design amplification, invented a first time circuit topology called the ITC circuit, known as Inverted Transconductance Coupling, which eliminates for the first time in a solid state design distortion way below measurable levels, which is one of the several reasons why Robert's Takumi K-10 solid state Preamp will equal in full the midrange and treble qualities exclusive to the worlds finest tube Preamps on the market. Getting off subject. Want to stay focused on Class D topology. |