I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
"Some of this stuff is so simple and so easy to get to the truth."
>>>>>I always get a little bit suspicious when a long post starts out with the word truth in the first sentence and, "I’ve got decades of experience," in the next breath. This seems to be simply a case where someone barged into the thread without reading the preliminary discussions on this thread. Sometimes naysayers barge in where angels fear to tread.
@blindjim Don’t believe me…. As is always the case here… try reversing one or both
supposed directional cables and listen for yourself over the course of a
few days or a week!!!
Why not? They are your wires, right?
I have, and I do hear a difference.
I also hear the difference between early 1960s Siemens CCa all gray shield tubes and early 1960s Amperex 6922 PQ white label USA made tubes in my preamp. Can the differences one hears be measured with test equipment?
I can hear differences between one manufacture's ICs and Speakers cables and that of another manufacture's. I can't ever remember any reviewer of cables show actual testing with test equipment results. Can you?
I can hear the difference in SQ quality from my 2 channel tube preamp and tube power amp from when they are first powered up playing music to after they have been powered up for about 45 minutes playing music. I can hear the SQ continue to improve after they have been playing music after an hour or two. I have read similar posts on audio forums and from audio magazine reviewers that state the same thing. I can't recall any actual bench tests using test equipment verifying the improvements in SQ though. Have you?
Do you believe ICs and speaker cables SQ improve with break-in, burn-in, settle-in, or what ever you call it? If yes, where is the proof? Verified lab testing.
According to this guy it's a myth. The cable will sound the same new out of the box as it will with a 100 hours of signal passing through it.
Cable Vendor Claim "'Breaking in' a cable
has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The
insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a
current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption
causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random
order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged,
the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less
distortion." - Audioquest
Audioholics Response
Thus their conclusion is the dielectric , not the wire
causes distortion! Claims regarding insulation molecules "aligning"
with a signal, skin effect, strand jumping, etc, are anecdotal at best.
Let's not forget that an audio signal is AC, and effectively random from
a physical perspective. Nothing can align to a random signal by being
anything other than random - exactly the state they claim is "cured" by
injecting a signal.
"Break In" is not a proven audible or measurable phenomenon. The
perception of changes in sound quality with time is likely attributable
to the classical placebo effect, i.e., a listener anticipating a
possible audible difference is predisposed to hear one whether or not it
exists. Note that Audioquest isn't the only exotic cable vendor that
claims cables "Break In". This is actually quite a popular myth touted
by many other exotic cable vendors and cable forum cult hobbyists alike.
"Though, Power Cords especially. Why? Because you can not reverse the ends. They don’t fit. Even if you push really hard!!"
>>>>Power cords are like fuses in an AC circuit. I.e., they’re directional. Of course I’m not (rpt not) suggesting you can flip a power cord around like a fuse, obviously you can't. But what I AM saying is that manufacturers should be AWARE that wire is directional, all wire, just like Audioquest, to name one, states. And like HiFi Tuning states. Even the teeny tiny strands of wire in stranded cables and power cords are directional. Thus, IF the manufacturer is AWARE of wire directionality AND he CONTROLS the manufacturing process - so when it comes time to affix the connectors on the power cord - he knows which end is which. Follow?
The Audioholics article is apparently 13 years old yet contains the same misstatements of the facts and the usual appeals to "reason" and double blind testing as today’s uber skeptics. 13 years old but still fresh as a daisy! My favorite Audioholics response? This gem: "Let’s not forget that an audio signal is AC, and effectively random from a physical perspective. Nothing can align to a random signal by being anything other than random."
I'm pretty sure the DSM has a diagnostic name for those who hear things that have no basis in reality. It's called schizophrenia. But say there was some magic wire that acted like a diode in some way. Why would that be a good thing? The concept sounds stupid on it's face on principle alone.
a long-term mental disorder of a type involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behavior, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, withdrawal from reality and personal relationships into fantasy and delusion, and a sense of mental fragmentation.
(in general use) a mentality or approach characterized by inconsistent or contradictory elements.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
But say there was some magic wire that acted like a diode in some way.
Who said it acted like a diode?
Why would that be a good thing? The concept sounds stupid on it’s face on principle alone.
Only an IDIOT would think someone who designs and builds ICs and speaker cables would deliberately somehow make a cable directional and use the reasoning behind it as some kind of sales gimmick. A STUPID IDIOT! .
kosst_amojan I’m pretty sure the DSM has a diagnostic name for those who hear things that have no basis in reality. It’s called schizophrenia.
>>>Actually, that’s incorrect. Pathological skeptics are unable or unwilling to hear things that are really there. The name of that particular mental disorder is bipolar disorder. 👥 Or maybe they’re just superstitious, like George. Hey, George it’s OK to come out now. The war has been over for many decades. George, George, George of the Jungle, strong as he can be, Ahhh, Watch out for that tree!
georgehifi resonse: It’s the only technical non voodoo’ist explanation, if they (fuses or cables) are seen/heard to be directional.
First this thread is about cables, not fuses. For the discussion of this thread leave fuses out of it. PLEASE!
No doubt the diode theory makes it easier for you to disprove the chance cable directionality can exist.
Possible other theories that may be at play with cable directionality might be distortion in the cable caused by the conductor and or the type of dielectric used to cover the conductor. In one direction the distortion may be less than the other.
Apparently to date no one has been able to prove or disprove beyond a reasonable doubt using test equipment, that exists today, if cables are directional or not directional. I might also add to date, not that I am aware of, any such credible tests that prove or disprove ICs and speaker cables break-in burn-in with use. Do you believe they do? Now I am not talking about cheapo $2 or $4 dollar ICs. I am referring to good quality designed and built ICs whether DIY or name brand.
Here is a long and winding thread I found on AA. Note the posts of well known EEs and a couple of audio equipment designers. It appears bench testing of IC cables is not all that easy to do. You can’t just use a multi meter to test an IC or speaker cable. Other than maybe checking for continuity or DC resistance.
Posted message.
No cable warm up: proven by a Korean hi-end critique
Posted by koko (A) on February 10, 2002 at 15:21:02
Mr. Hyun, one of the most popular and highly respected hi-end audio critique at HIFINET, claimed that it is scientifically proven that there is not a thing like cable warm up or cable break in. According to him, his claim is so firmly established by science that it can never be altered by future science.
He says that he himself measured RadioShack audio cables with a multi-meter. He used continuous sine wave tones on a test CD. He could not measure voltage difference between a new one, a several-day-old one, and a several-week-old one. He says that such test is SUFFICIENT to be a firm SCIENTIFIC PROOF of his claim because cable is electrically linear.
About HIFINET: www.hifinet.co.kr It is a true hi-end webzine. Korean hi-end audio importers provide its reviewers with Mark Levinson 380SL, B&W Nautilus 801, Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage, etc - true high-end stuff -.
About Mr. Hyun: He has posted a lot of articles on technical issues as well as listening test reports. Readers can feel that he has high confidence on what he is talking about. He very often uses words such as ’science’, ’technology’, ’textbook’, ’NIST’, ’proof’, ’founded’, ’established’, etc.
Wasn’t Korea where they make the smartphones that kept blowing up last year? You know, Samsung. I kind doubt anyone’s opinion right off the bat who’s opinions are described as having a "high degree of confidence" or representing the pinnacle of high end audio. Gimme a break! That’s such an obvious Appeal to Authority it’s not funny. Are you trying to be controversial? Don't we have enough controversy already? 😀
@jea48 > Where is your proof? Hard data? Any science supportive of your claims?
Nope. Not a bit. Just my own ears and opinions as were put down in this thread. I;’m not even gonna Google it to further support my claims.
I don’t care what any science, measuring equipment, theory, or electronic pathology states about anything in life. At some point later on someone will challenge it or refute it, or entirely oust it from popular opinion..
Years ago Coffee was said to be carsenogenic. Then it was red meat. Then it was red meat cooked very rare, then later it was said only the cooked well done meat was bad. And next it will be something else. Super. Fine.
Here is what I can control and attest to which is not my own truth but ‘the’ truth……. As I am able to perceive it.
Once a highly resolving system is established, one with sufficient transparency, exchanging in and out links, componentws, accessories, are all detectable merely from familiarity and astute listening sessions.
Pardon the vain attempt at humor from the power cord no matter how hard you push business. Sorry. It sounded funny to me. It still does.
I view the world at large by hwat, how or when I experience it first hand. It is said here on these pages repeatedly “try it for yoruself’. If a doubt exists.
If you can hear a difference, then there is a difference, in your opinion and may well be a difference in fact. It doesn’t matter what someone else opinion may be… in this arena it is the opinion of whom so ever is chief cook, and bottle washer which matters.
As erstwhile, frank, direct and open as are the notes of our experience we so liberally post on these pages remains, I am hard pressed to figure anyone, is intentionally stating contrary information or being outright deceptive. Passionate? Misguided? Confused? Possibly. But I feel the subjective accounts of members herein are so very often, quite genuine.
I refuse to be lead about by some bit of scientific data which essentially means nothing to me, when I can simply connect this to that and find out first hand what has changed.
So ‘skin effect’ and hole flow’, and aligning microns of the metals thru cryogenics are all just so much nonsense to me.. there is far more to this hobby than focusing on the minutia and remaining so pedantic we allow a past time to become an ‘all the time’ situation. As Riley said about that particular point in time, “the Thrill is gone.”.
There is gonna be smoke and mirrors everywhere there is advertisement. Marketing. Sales and salesmanship. Competition. Technology.
Big deal.
Corvettes have a load of technology built into them lately. How we find out if we like one is to drive it. Period. No other way. We have to experience one first hand.
Audio is the same exact identical thing! Experience things first hand. Damn the technology. Damn the hype. Damn, a lot of this stuff is freakin’ expensive! Lol.
New approaches on older themes occurs all the time. OK. Choose. Listen to them and give them a try…. Or ignore them. Its your pick. I tend to give credence to whomever… at first … and if it is an affordable thing to experiment with.
I’m never gonna know what its like to have a room professionally treated for acoustics. Never gonna know what it’s like to have a complete DCS stack of electronics.
I recently heard Ethernet wires make a diff in the SQ. Really? Well, I can find that out for myself. And will.
Do wires need to be run in? well, they sure sound different after a few weeks of playing than they did the first couple days.
I have more than one system in house. Meager as it may be, it helps me get wires run in with out wasting the main rig’s resources. Hell, the refrigerator does most of the power cord brning in duties.
I’ll plug whatever into the main affair and check it out. But always that day or the next, put it/them into another system to get run in for 7 – 10 days and recheck them. Some need more than 200 hours. Some don’t. I’m very allergic to ‘placebos’. They do nothing to me physically, but emotionally I’m irritated someone actually thought nothing in a pill could alter my state of mind. Its like being cheated. IMO
So which way should wires run? Find out for yourself. There’s no other legit argument and what you discover regardless what other’s say even in consensus, will be ‘the’ truth, won’t it?
I pray this sheds more light onto my previous post.
But there’s nothing there to hear. And you can’t prove there is. And why can't you tell me why it would be a good thing even if it did exist? I've asked twice now.
But there’s nothing there to hear. And you can’t prove there is. And why can’t you tell me why it would be a good thing even if it did exist? I’ve asked twice now.
Back at you. Show me any credible test data that says it doesn’t exist. You can’t, can you?
And why can’t you tell me why it would be a good thing even if it did exist? I’ve asked twice now.
Just a guess it was discovered by accident many years ago. Some one discovered directionality by listening to a cable they had built. ( I never found a cheap IC that uses stranded wire and PVC insulation that I could hear any difference if the ICs were reversed. I tried it about 16, 18, years ago.)
I first leaned about wire/cable directionality when my son bought some solid core copper silver plated "Wonder Wire" that had/has a Teflon dielectric, insulation, from Micheal Percy. Just going from memory it was around the late 1990s early 2000. It could have been earlier, I just don’t remember for sure. Micheal marked the end of the wire as it came off the spool with a piece of masking tape. And yes the wire was directional.
As for a good thing??? Well, I guess if YOU can/could hear the difference and one direction sounded slightly better than the other direction which way would you install the ICs or speaker cable in your audio system? I mean why does anybody use anything other than cheapo $2 or $5 ICs in their audio system? Back in the 1970s that’s what I used.
For what it’s worth The Audioquest solid core silver wire ICs and speaker cables I own sound best hooked up in the direction of the arrows on the cables. The Clear Day solid core silver wire ICs I borrowed from my son for at least a month or so again sounded best, to my ears and my son’s ears, in the direction of the arrows on the cable.
Take the time and read this post where John Curl tested ICs just to prove they do improve with break-in, burn-in time. It’s not as simple a matter as you will discover. Was John’s testing method accurate or flawed. How about the other guy’s test proving ICs SQ do not improve with break-in time. Was his testing with a multi-meter correct? https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4/42469.html
AA threads are a little hard to follow at first. Last posted message go to the top of the page. So if you want to read the thread from the start you start at the bottom and work up.
Main response to the OP posted message is to the far left margin of the page.
No one said it’s a good thing. Certainly not me. I would call it a subtle thing. Subtle but powerful. Just for the record this is about the fourth time I answered the same question. Or should I say non question. A Nothing Burger. 🍔
geoffkait6,394 posts08-24-2017 5:00pmAs
far as the directionality thread is concerned Al and Atmasphere have
definitely not proved their points. Furthermore, it should be pointed
out much of Al’s argument (as is often the case) is an Appeal to
Authority, citing experts to support his argument. Even citing his own
expertise, not to mention Atmasphere’s. That’s an appeal to authority.
You know, a logical fallacy. Geez, all you would have to do to win any
(rpt any) technical argument is say well, I found this guy so and so and
he says such and such so I must be right.
Cheers
Geoff,
Say what!! That has to the dumbest post of yours to date.
Furthermore, it should be pointed
out much of Al’s argument (as is often the case) is an Appeal to
Authority, citing experts to support his argument.
What planet are you from?
Appeal to Authority???
You mean men like, Michael Farady
(
Faraday's law of induction ) Joseph Henry
(Inductance) James Clark Maxwell
(Maxwell's equations)
John Henry Poynting (
Poynting vector) Georg Ohm (Ohms Law) Alessandro Volta
(Voltage) The list goes on and on. And yes,
Ralph Morrison and Henry Ott among others.
Whose examples do you follow when you present an argument or claim? Just your own educated opinion? Were you self taught, self educated?
All of those illustrious names are just names. You are a name dropper. Name dropping doesn’t win arguments. It’s an Appeal to Authority, a well-known logical fallacy. Especially in these audio controversies. You forgot Albert Einstein. Follow? You're not going to argue with me? Huh? You just did. Even though it was an illogical argument.
@jea48 You’re joking, right? You really want me to post pics of me testing a piece of wire both ways with a DMM so you can see there’s no difference?
Folks are selling this jazz like 9/11 truthers with rebranded accusations of cognitive dissonance, defying me to prove a negative.
Skin effect is subtle, but that CAN be measured. Nobody here has cited a phenomenon that would explain a wire being directional because there isn’t one. If there was a way to build a directional wire, you can bet your ass that you could buy it by the mile. High speed data buses are forever plagued with termination challenges, specifically, preventing signal reflections from traveling backwards down the bus. If there was any way to form a directional trace or wire, buses for memory and parallel SCSI wouldn’t require meticulous termination. A big reason computer buses have gone serial hub based point-to-point is because terminating them is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper.
Directionality is pure snake oil. Scour JEDEC and IEEE standards. You won’t find mention of any such phenomenon.
I was beginning to really follow along in paragraph 3. Good stuff. Then the "pure snake oil" comment. Pffffffft. The balloon lost its air. Honestly, is there a more overused and trite slam in the world of audio? You can do better.
kosst_amojan @jea48 You’re joking, right? You really want me to post pics of me testing a piece of wire both ways with a DMM so you can see there’s no difference?
>>> Speaking for myself I prefer that uber skeptics and naysayers not (rpt not) test cables or fuses for direction for obvious reasons.
Folks are selling this jazz like 9/11 truthers with rebranded accusations of cognitive dissonance, defying me to prove a negative.
>>>>Whatever..
Skin effect is subtle, but that CAN be measured.
>>>>>>So can directionality be measured. And very easily, too. Don't you have your listening ears on?
Nobody here has cited a phenomenon that would explain a wire being directional because there isn’t one.
>>>>>Again, you don't have your listening ears on. The phenomenon has been known for at least 20 years. Have you been living in a cave?
If there was a way to build a directional wire, you can bet your ass that you could buy it by the mile.
>>>>actually, you can not (rpt not) build a wire that isn't directional. See the irony?
High speed data buses are forever plagued with termination challenges, specifically, preventing signal reflections from traveling backwards down the bus. If there was any way to form a directional trace or wire, buses for memory and parallel SCSI wouldn’t require meticulous termination. A big reason computer buses have gone serial hub based point-to-point is because terminating them is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper.
>>>>Wire directionality probably would not (rpt not) show up in data communications. I've already addressed this. It's an audiophile thang! 😁
Directionality is pure snake oil. Scour JEDEC and IEEE standards. You won’t find mention of any such phenomenon.
>>>>>I doubt you have actually "scoured" those standards or any standards. Besides there are no standards for sound quality or for audiophile cables. There are no standards for many audiophile issues, actually, like polarity.
teo_audio What is that difference? Where does it come from? That the number, the measurement and the math can’t find it is utterly meaningless in the face of the observation. That it cannot be scientifically found, does not make the observation invalid. It makes the claimant of science being above and ruling over the validity of observations, observations made by what is actually moving into being millions of people (over the years) --at fault. Audiophiles and their friends and families have been exposed to the directionality question--so it's into the millions of people exposed to the quandary. To add, we’ve now got this huge group of headphone fanatics who are spending mucho cash in this area and they are also caught up in the directionality question.
You got me there. I was under the assumption there were only around 200 audiophiles, 250 tops.
Geoff, honest I have been paying attention. But can you remind me, in your pictures are the little sheep the nonbelievers and the little people following them the naysayers? Or is the opposite way around?
I seriously doubt there are millions of people who buy into this directionality fantasy. And by your very description, Geoff, it's pure fantasy with no basis in reality. We can measure distortion far more accurately than any ear can hear, so where's the measurements? No measurement means your imagining it, pure and simple.
kosst_amojan I seriously doubt there are millions of people who buy into this directionality fantasy. And by your very description, Geoff, it’s pure fantasy with no basis in reality. We can measure distortion far more accurately than any ear can hear, so where’s the measurements? No measurement means your imagining it, pure and simple.
>>>>>What description of mine puts a bee in your bonnet? Directional fuses and directional cables, you know the ones with little arrows on them, have been around almost as long as chunky style peanut butter. Haven’t you been paying attention? HiFi Tuning in Germany, published measurements for many brands of fuses, cryo’d and not cryo’d, glass and ceramic, stock and audiophile brands, in both directions. You must be the only person on this thread who doesn't know that. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ it doesn’t do your side any good to just repeat the same mantra over and over again without doing your homework. So, far your posts are really just Nothing Burgers. 🍔 🍔 🍔
Idiotones cannot be measured yet we hear them in the form of tinnitus. Heck, they can't even figure out how it works.
Any argument that points to the limits of hearing ability glosses over the fact that our ears are cluing into sounds at lower, normal yet infinitely more complex forms than a test tone (overtones, harmonics, phase distortion [what we know to be accurate vs what we hear], etc,) that can be heard, analyzed and processed immediately (thank you evolution) and that is what can't be measured, but appreciated.
geoffkait Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ it doesn’t do your side any good to just repeat the same mantra over and over again without doing your homework.
Now that is the pot calling the kettle black, Geoff you are really commit-able. You and your little avatars need to be locked up, I'm amazed the mods are letting you post.
hifiman5 Do you believe that everything experiential is measurable?
You need to know that even audio prototypes are done 100% using measurements, they're not concocted up in a blender.
Heisenberg is speeding down the highway when he's pulled over by a cop. The cop asks for his license then asks to look in his trunk. When he opens the trunk there's a dead cat inside. The cops says, hey, buddy, ya know there's a dead cat in your trunk? Heisenberg replies, well, I do now!
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