Tom, thanks for the update I will look into replacing the resistors as well. |
I have no Dunlavy experience but I have purchased big heavy older speakers, like Model 5's, and it was a real hassle. Difficult to unpack, potential driver issues, packing again, expensive shipping.
I say be really careful and go less with value and more with how long you will be satisfied with them.
Best of luck. |
Sorry to post again but I just want to emphasize the perception of value or worth vs. satisfaction. Especially with a big and heavy speaker. |
Bjesien post as much as you like the more the better. I have herd the SCIV speakers and do like them. I don't upgrade often(4kids and a wife) makes sure of that. Also seeing how I'm personal friends with the dealer they often will come out to the house for any repairs so I don't have to worry about packing and transporting heavy speakers and amps to the shop. As far price I never allow myself to get caught up in the hype of a product and the through the roof prices that come along with. While I think the SCIV's are cool I still have to be budget minded. Earlier this year my dealer had a set and wanted 2500.00 for them and there they sat till someone else bought them. |
I think you'll love them. Yes, they can be improved on, but they do everything well and that's what makes them so good. |
Thanks Rcprince new tweeters will be in on Tuesday and I will be sure to do a follow up. I'm interested in hearing the differences between them and the Vandersteen 2ci speakers. |
2cj, I can offer a little more support for your choice.
I owned and enjoyed a pair of Duntech Princess (purchased new) for 19 years. Anyone who knows me and the number of speakers I've owned overall will understand why that is significant. The Princess was/is the earlier sibling to the DAL SC-IV/IVa. I reluctantly sold them only due to a pending move.
While I believe the Duntech models were superior to their DAL counterparts (better driver selection and cabinet design), I had the chance to hear most DAL models and still found them to be outstanding. They are tonally very good and easy to listen to for extended periods of time. But they are also very revealing and will benefit from careful component matching and room placement.
I believe John Dunlavy was among the absolute best speaker designers and your opportunity to get one of his full range (almost) models in good condition for under $2K should be an easy choice, so long as its size is acceptable in your household. |
"I've heard of driver failures and its a real headache so there is a little risk involved."
I have heard of driver failures in almost every speaker. There are some real animals out there.
"For as big as they are the bass is quite weak"
Dunlavy SCIV is not intended to be used 4 or 5 feet into the room. Dunlavy told me to start out 8 inches from the wall behind the speakers and move them out accordingly. Using John Dunlavy's instructions the bass energy was quite remarkable and very satisfying. |
"By comparing Dunlavys to the Vandersteens you're comparing two speakers that are more similar to each other than most others are."
I have owned both and I don't see how you can compare them other than they are both speakers. |
I agree with Rrog. Not only have I personally owned speakers from both companies, I was a dealer for both. Completely different. |
First order cross-overs, stepped drivers, time and phase waveform coherent, similar impedance load, similar seating distance for driver integration, etc., etc.. Sure there are differences, but how many other speakers share all those attributes? |
You guys really have provided me with an enormous amount of info. Looks like I'm all in now as I sold my Vandersteen 2ci speakers today. For those who have owned or actually spent time with the SCIV'S did you feel the need for a separate sub. Rrog I too have herd that when placed closer to the rear wall the bass is fine? |
That depends on you and your room. |
I'd suggest you get the speakers in your room and start listening and experimenting. Then you'll see if they need a sub or not. |
2cj- As I posted earlier, I have a lovely pair of SC 3's. Early on I had to have the tweeters replaced with a pair that were supposedly matched, but obviously independent of the speakers in my living room (a voice coil was sticky....made a sort of buzzing sound, like a dusty pot. You could fix it by gently pushing in on the dome, and it would go away.) I replaced the tweeters myself and they sounded just fine! (At the time, Dunlavy provided them for free).
Regarding the needs of a sub; my SC 3's are rated only at around 43k at the low end. Occasionally I turn my sub on when I'm in the mood for some meat and slam. But I have to say that 95% of the time, I don't use it. And I can imagine that with the SC4's, you'd be better served without a sub, and could possibly over do it, depending on the type of sub you get. For me, trying to integrate a sub into the mix is tricky, because certain low frequency instruments can have many different footprints depending on the instrument itself, how it's miked and how it's mixed. So, I'm constantly futzing with the adjustable cross-over roll off dial. Without a sub, I let the speaker's crossover do all of the work. Then I have two hands free; one for the volume on my remote, and the other for my martini.
Give it a whirl "au naturel" for a while and see how her bottom feels (sorry, couldn't help myself).
Good luck. Keep us all posted! |
Judsauce I'm on the same page hate having to constantly adjust the cross over on the sub. That was my gripe with the 2ci speakers |
Got the SCIV's today. Haven't listen to them for very long, But my first impression is that they are very detailed and very accurate. I see the argument about the low end it's not that they are lacking in my opinion i think that the overall concept of the speaker is to convey an detailed and accurate presentation and they do a pretty good job of that. Will post more after i let them play for a while. |
Please forgive me for offering this very obvious friendly advice; proper setup is needed to really let the Dunlavy's demonstrate all that they're capable of. |
Unsound I agree with proper set. I will need to re arange the man cave to set them up on the long wall of the man cave. However properly set up on the short wall they really sing. Cant wait to see what improvements I see once set up on the long wall. As for the bottom end it's definitely there in my set up no sub needed. |
Don't forget some thick absorptive material behind the listening position when setting up along the the long wall. |
Update on the SCIV's the bass was pretty good on their own. I did try adding a sub,However properly set up the sub did not add any bottom end just my it sound fuller? Next I tried moving the speakers closer to the back wall as I had read in an post somewhere that contray to popular belief the SCIV's benefit from this. Well I can safely say that closer to the back wall the SCIV's bottom end really came to life. The bass is nice and full just like when they were out further into the room about 2 to 3 feet from the rear wall just a lot more of it.Now with that being said I did put brass cones under the basses of the SCIV's Not sure I under the the concept behind the cones since the speakers are already off the floor due tothe attached bases they come with. With that being said I must say that the bass did clean up some with the cones as well there was an noticable improvement in midbass and treble they both sounded very clear out the gate but the cones make them sound a bit cleaner, This could be due to raising the speakers up closer to ear level more so than majic? also when I got the SCIV's they had some weird looking things attached to the back of them, I forget the name of what they are(I will check later on the name as I did get the paper work along with the paper work for the speakers)but the concept behind them is that they asorb the 1st order reflections from the cabniets allowing speakers to be placed close to the rear wall without getting the refelections. How true this is or isn't I don't know just wanting to paint the proper picture on my set up and the sound as I hear it.
I havent set them up along the long wall as of yet as I don't belive that I have the room to do so. On teh long wall the speakers would only be 4 to 6 feet from the listening position not sure if this would allow enough room for th edriver to blend? But I hear it would still improve th eoverall sound stage? |
2cj, I suggest you study your manual if you received one. In my Duntech Princess owner manual John Dunlavy stated that factory frequency response measurements were made at a distance of 3 meters. This distance allowed the sound from the five drivers to converge properly at the mic. I can't imagine he would have taken measurements in any position other than one to achieve optimal performance.
If not exactly the same, I'm sure your SC-IVs have driver positions very similar to the Princess. I used 10' listening distance with my Princesses. |
4-6' forget it, you need at least 8' and preferably more for proper driver integration. |
Unsound are you saying forget the long wall altogether? Pryso I do have the manual. One tread I was reading said that the 3 meters is the arc of the speakers not straight forward from the speaker? Sounds like you guys are saying don't waste my time moving my basement around? |
I agree, you need to be at least 8 to 10 feet away for the best driver integration (when you're listening from your listening seat, as opposed to elsewhere). Best not to movbe everything around, in my view. |
The measurement is from ear to speaker, not from ear to center of the triangle baseline. You can have the listening position directly in front of the opposing wall, if, and only if you have an appropriate amount of absorptive material directly behind the listening position. I suggest you do some measurements before moving everything around. |
Thanks Unsound. I will do some more measurements. if I set them 10ft. apart on the long wall that would then give me
roughly 8.5 to 9ft from ear to speaker wondering if that will be enough to allow the drivers to properly blend? |
If you could set them up about 12' apart from center of tweeter to center of tweeter, about 2' from the long wall behind them, that would be even better. Do remember to toe them in. It appears you might be in the ball park after all. To avoid comb filtering effects, be sure to use absorptive material behind the listening position. Such a setup should even out bass response (typically the biggest challenge) and help imaging. |
The drivers are matched well enough you can go more than 12' without losing anything. Toe the speakers in so you can only see a sliver of the inside of the cabinet. Lose the spikes and don't bother with bi-wiring. |
2cj, in spite of the well-meaning advice from myself and others here, you must have the patience for experimenting in your own set up.
Any recommendations for specific dimensions must be considered only as recommendations for your list of trials. There are simple too many variations in room dimensions, construction, treatments, associated equipment, and personal taste for any of us to tell you "exactly" how to set up your speakers.
I believe you will continue to find your speakers to be very revealing, therefore they may benefit from even small adjustments.
Good luck and have fun. |
Pryso, is of course correct, up to a point. There are minimum requirements that need to be met to allow the design goals to work. |
Thanks for all the tips. I have moved them over to the long wall roughly 12ft apart and they do sound amazing in this configuration! I tried them with and without the brass cones. While I don't buy into a lot of the snake oil in the audio world I must admit that the cones have somehow made the already revealing mid bass/range just a tad cleaner. The cones most notable affect was on the low end. I was up in the air on sub or sub after trying the cones I can safely say no sub in my set up. The cones have cleaned up the low end. Not that the low end wasn't nice already. But the cones have tightened up the low end and now it's a little faster and a little more slam. I will continue to play and tweak their current set up as time provides. I must say that I am impressed with the SCIV's to be almost 20yrs. old they sure do sing. While not the best speaker in the world they do so many things right that their a pleasure to listen to for hours at a time. Very accurate and detailed at least for my price point and dollar. However I must say bad recordings beware you have been warned!!! |
How far are you seated from the loudspeakers? Did you put some absorptive sound treatment behind you? |
Unsound, I am about 9.5ft from the speakers. Yes I have added some sound treatments behind me. |
Excellent! Are you seated close to that rear wall? |
I'm not close to the rear wall I'm about 5 to 7 feet from the rear wall. |
If you move back to about 1' from the wall behind the listening position/or until your about 12' from the speakers (trial & error), and have the speakers backs about 2-3' from the wall behind them, you should have better driver integration and smoother bass response. |
^If you have toe in dialed right, you might want to have the base of the triangle a bit larger than the legs. |
2cj, as I said, lots of different advice but how much fits your system?
I think Unsound has offered good comments, up until he suggested sitting 1' out from the back wall, at least relative to "smoother bass response".
So let me suggest this. If you have a test CD or one with repetitive bass information, put that on repeat and set your volume at or near the maximum level you would listen to. Then move around the room, listening from a wide variety of locations. I'll bet whenever you are within 2' or so of any wall you will hear a boost in bass. The greatest amount should happen in corners but anywhere close to a wall may be more than further out into the room.
Then it will be up to you to decide if the boosted bass sounds natural and desirable to you. If it does, you can increase the apparent bass output from your SC-IVs with your chair/sofa against the wall and your head a foot or so away. But I have my doubts that will be the smoothest bass response.
Also, the problem with absorptive materials for bass frequencies is that they must be very thick to be effective. The typical 1-3" absorption will not help with frequencies below 180 Hz which is the traditional range for bass. There is lots of information online covering this if you search a little.
As with so much in life, balance should be your key. |
FWIW, the absorptive room treatment I was suggesting was not intended for bass frequencies, and the recommendations and reasons for those recommendations were given to me personally by John Dunlavy. |
Mikel,
Congratulations on your purchase of the Dunlavy speakers. I see from your thread that you are very responsive to "Unsound" and other members that give you advice and info to help you out with your new speakers. That is wonderful, but I hope you understand that I would also like to correctly set up the Vandersteen speakers that I purchased from you. For this I need the stands, which you promised to send out last Saturday/Monday and have yet to ship to me. For some reason, you are not responding to my inquiring emails, and I don't understand why you would treat a fellow Audiogon audio enthusiast disrespectfully. Didn't I pay you very promptly ??? There is not much of a "community" here if there is little to no communication. Can we please conclude this transaction in a timely manner ? |
Mikel/2channeljunkie...if the above is true, shame on you! That's not right. I know I get very excited to listen to new things, but you should always complete a transaction.
Just think of how Ttuesley must feel with new toys, but no batteries... |
I own both Dunlavy Alethas which I believe use the same drivers and crossover as the SC-IV (1 woofer per speaker versus 2 in the SC-IV) but in a more wife friendly enclosure, and Vandersteen 2s. The Vandys used to be my main music speakers but since acquiring the Alethas, the Vandys have been relegated to a basement home theater. Don't get me wrong, the Vandys are excellent speakers but are no match for the accuracy, liveliness and dynamics of the Alethas. That being said, I believe the two do indeed have a similar sound. They both have first order crossovers, phase and time alignment so perhaps that's why. I found the low end of the Vandersteens to be somewhat looser and boomier than the Dunlavys giving some the impression that the Vandys have "better" bass. In my opinion that's a result of the Vandys passive radiator. I've never heard a speaker with a passive radiator that doesn't blur the sound some.
In my room, the response of the Alethas is pretty flat till it starts to roll off at about 35 Hz being about 11 db down at 20 Hz. Just recently I purchased 2 REL Strata III subs to go with the Dunlavys and now the response is pretty much ruler flat to 20Hz. I couldn't be happier and can't say enough good things about the RELs, how we'll they blend with the Alethas etc. but I suppose that's a topic for a different post.
I will second the opinions that the Dunlavys need a big room in order to blend the drivers and offer a massive soundstage. Mine are in a big room, placed on the long wall about 17 ft apart. My listening position is about 15 ft from the midpoint of the speakers. I don't find them particularly difficult to position. They are about 3 ft away from the side walls and about 1 ft from the rear wall. The Vandys however, got real boomy when close to the back wall, again I presume because of the rear facing passive radiator.
I think you'll be real pleased with the transition from Vandys to Dunlavy. Keep us posted. |
Back in town. My Grand father passed and I was in charge of his final wishes and will. Ttuesley I asked my son to drop off the stands for shipping prior to leaving town how ever like all teen agers he conveniently forgot as i found them in the back of my truck when he picked me up from the airport. I understand your Frustration and apologize for any inconvenience that I caused you. The stands will be there tomorrow according to UPS tracking number 1Z596Y970369535564 |
Spent more time with the Dunlavy's and must say im loving them more with each listening session. My associated gear is Theata basic transport with a
Analog Research Segue DAC old yes but the pair makes beautiful music. For amps im running Electron Kinetics Eagle 400 monoblocks. Ive thought about getting new amps but anything I've herd in my price range dosent come close to the Eagles and the amps that have beat them was very marginal and didnt justify the dollar spend. |
I want to follow up my previous post on this thread. Mikel shipped the stands, and I am very happy with our transaction. Had I known the situation, I would have never posted my gripe on his thread. Thank you Mikel, for completing our transaction like a gentleman.
I have a small business and these speakers are always pumping in the background. I am sure that your Dunlavy's are better overall, but these guys work perfectly in my environment. All the best to you ! |
Ttuesley Thanks for the follow up!! I love the Vandersteens as well. If it had not been for the deal a good buddy of mine got me I would never have made the leap with the Dunlavy's. Just remember to fill the stands of the vandersteen's with sand or someting and use the spikes that they came with them and the over all dynamics of the speakers will sound even better. |
Hello,
If you are really into your Dunlavy speakers, you should consider upgrading some of the crossover parts.
I have been very happy with my Dunlavy SC-VIs for the last 16 years. It is the only component of my system that has not changed. Just yesterday I updated the firmware of my MPS-5 and it now sounds even better. I will do several crossover upgrades as recommended in some forums here, and I am sure it will get even better.
You made a great purchase. Enjoy!
VPN |
I have the SC-III.A, which is the final cabinet design and model name for the Athena-Aletha-Cantata series. I've been mulling upgrades (xover resistors to start, plus the binding posts) but I get cold feet. Improvements are always possible and welcome, but I'd hate to screw things up in the process. What if it's better in some areas but loses the magic? :-) |
Hi Drubin,
Remember that old saying?....."don't fix what's not broken".
If you have the magic right now, why mess with it? John Dunlavy was one of the greatest speaker builders of all times, in my humble opinion. He could take inexpensive drivers, match them, and design crossovers that were custom to those specific drivers, and create "magic".
I've owned my SCIV Signatures for a very long time and have no desire to change anything about them. Why? Because to my ears, they already have the majic that you referred to. I am not going to pretend that I know more about this "art" than a man like John Dunlavy!
Sure, I could change parts out and get a different sound....but will it be better? I doubt it. It really doesn't matter though to me as I love the sound I am getting right now.
Take the money you'd spend on all the parts/labor/time and buy more music and continue to enjoy them.
Just my three cents worth. |
