Been considering a Linn Radikal power supply/motor kit for my LP12. It is now powered by a late "shoe box" Lingo- old styl box but the circuit board is all SMD's.
Anyway, it occurred to me that for the price of the Radikal I could buy a VPI Prime with a tonearm. I recently heard the Prime and was very impressed with it
I really like my Linn, and have zero thoughts of disposing it.
So so the theoretical question is Prime or Radikal? It would be great to move my LP12 up another notch and it ours be a blast to hav a 2nd TT
I listened to a friends Prime with a Lyra Delos. It is a good set up and I think it competes well with the Linn LP12 Magik, but not as revealing as the Linn LP12 Akurate level.
I'm convinced enough to, at least, audition the Radikal. Now, if the funds would arrive.... I also have enough other things to improve in my analog playback, before I have to consider it.
mmakshak, I can tell you that the Radikal D power supply is a very BIG step up over all of the Lingo's that I have heard, including the Lingo 3. The dc motor and the speed control of it are exemplary and the background noise, like you expected, is now virtually nil.
I suspect most listeners who think the Linn lp12 is colored, would change their mind, if they heard it with Radikal(their dc motor upgrade). For me, besides the price preventing my upgrade, the diminishing of background noise(due to the ac motor affecting the cartridge) is something that interests me. I could easily live with John's needle drops on Pink Fish Media, so there's still hope for this non-lottery winner. John had Lingo(I think.) and the ac motor.
My floor is very unlevel. 2nd floor hardwood. Old house. Walls are very unlevel. I actually have 2 shims under one of the legs of my stand. One under two other legs. One leg is on the floor itself. I have found that a level surface is huge, especially when using a very sensitive cartridge. Everything is magnified considerably, every fault in the system. When everything is aligned it does sound great though. I level the stand then turntable chassis. The Benz ref s just let's you know more than other moving magnets or moving coils I have had that something is not right. Maybe I am just ultra sensitive. As far as alignment, I have found that you cannot just go by cantilever alignment and overhang. It helps and sometimes it works perfect. you have to listen and listen good. Azimuth is important, its all important. A level surface to place turntable on is more important than I previously thought. It really make a big difference ime. Even if it is off a little, it impacts the sound.
tzh21y, You have really raised 3 issues about VPI set-up. First, what is to go under the table. If you're dealing with a concrete floor there may be one solution. If you have a soft suspended wood floor there may be another. Sometimes a sturdy shelf attached to the wall studs solves the problem completely. Suggest you visit the VPI forum, describe your situation and seek advice. You shouldn't have to spend a lot of cash to solve the problem.
If I understand it correctly all current Linns have some form of electronics in front of the motor. Either the SDS (available used) or an Eagle will provide the functionality of a Lingo for about a third of the price. It will raise your VPI to a new level. Should you upgrade to a different VPI TT the electronics can go with you.
Cartridge set up should not be very much different on a JMW arm. Setting azimuth may be the biggest difference. Some of us use the $50 Soundsmith "Counter Intuitive" to make it a bit easier, for you can change azimuth without changing VTF and vv, and easily make changes in very small increments.
I have found ime the the arm is difficult to set up for optimum performance. If a lower end cartridge is used, it may not be as difficult. I have a glider and a denon 103 that was fairly easy and tracked particularly well with the jmw. However, I have found that the higher end cartridges are much tougher to set up. It can be done, but it takes a lot of patience. I have never had a problem with mm cartridges with this arm. I am currently using a Benz ref s and it is a bear to set up. Even hearing it on the ekos arm on the Linn told me that this cartridge is much more demanding and finicky with set up. It did not sound very good on the Linn. The dealer had a klyde installed that sounded much better on the Linn than the Benz. So much so that I could not believe it. I brought the Benz home and put it back on the VPI and the magic returned after careful setup. Unless it is set up correctly, the ref s is very siblant and can distort during demanding passages. When set up correctly,this. Cartridge can sound amazing on the scout. I do not think there is a better value in turntables that found in the scout. I have tried the butcher block and did not like it very much. I had an hrs for audition once and it was amazing what it did. Incredible actually. I did not have an SDS. I am curious of what is possible with the scout. Overall, as I said, the Linn was better that the scout but I thought the scout was better at making me want to listen to music. I felt the scout took me to the venue better than the Linn. The Linn brought the venue to me. The instruments sounded more realistic on the VPI to my ears but the Linn provided more inner detail, blacker background. Some of the things I did not like about the Linn may have been system related. It did have a very solid image of the music. It makes me wonder if I had the scout on a stable platform and a better motor controller could it outperform the Linn at less than half the cost?
No hrs for me, the Timbernation racks of mine are solid as is. I had two 3" butcher blocks for amps stands and have recycled them under my tables but can't hear a difference. They do look cool though!
Most VPI users so not use an hrs. Depending on location many use nothing special or use a heavy ($50) cutting board underneath, sometimes with soft footers of some kind underneath, sometimes not. In lieu of $1200 SDS many are using $525 Phoenix Eagle. Leveling the platter needs only a $5 level. (Shouldn't all platters be level?) Prime arm is outstanding 3D arm. Why do you think arm is hard to set up? Set up is like all other arms with added advantage of very easy SRA/VTA.
It is not that I think the Linn is not a good table, far from it. Not sure about the price tag. I cannot imagine what is possible with the scout. Maybe an SDS and an hrs isolation platform. I bet it would sound pretty quiet and impressive but again hrs 1500 and SDS 1000, well you are at 4 grand. I bet the prime with the added mass, hrs and SDS would be pretty amazing. The thing with VPI is that the arm is very hard to set up and get right. Table has to be perfectly level. After listening to the prime and the lp 12, even though there was some setup issues with the prime, I think I am leaning towards the prime. It is the best value in turntables. If I already had a Linn, I would probably keep it. They do sound great.
bdp24, I just wanted to dispell the notion, that just because you hear a note on one system, that that system is more accurate than one where you don't hear that note.
Sadly, My big city Linn Dealer is belly up. =/ I would have to go into another state to find an authorized Linn Dealer. So for now.. I will have to wait.
While I've not heard turntables/arms/cartridges that carry a $50,000 or more retail price, I have heard turntables/arms/cartridges upwards of $20,000, including a fully decked out LP12 (Radikal, kore, kandid, Ekos Se)- none gave clearly bettered the LP12. I did hear an oracle, with an SME arm and a Benz cartridge that was pretty terrific too
Norman, I hope your Linn dealer is not the same guy as you have referred to in your prior posts. That dealer seems unable to set up the table so that you could hear what it is capable of. Just saying.
My Linn comparison is based on my personal table. That is the only thing I could really based it on, as I had it for 10 years and am very familiar with it's sound.
While the Classic II is an introductory table in the VPI line, it's dynamics and pace are excellent.
I am a little surprised though at your staunch loyalty to Linn. Linn isn't and has never been the last word in turntables. There are just so many finer options, both vintage and new. I will stick to my $4000.00 budget VPI Classic II over the Linn any day. (again comparing to my LP12, which by the time I sold it I believe was about a $9000.00 table.. that's in 2003 dollars not including the arms)
Funny story, when I decided to move on to another turntable I called my Linn dealer and he took it personal. He offered me $1650.00 for my LP12 (absolutely pristine conditions with all upgrades purchased and performed by his dealership) Go figure?
I will be at my Linn Dealer tomorrow. I will let you know if I get an opportunity to hear the latest mods.
Norman, I think we will have to agree to disagree. I have heard all of the VPI range, including the DD and the Classic 11 that you mention. Compared to a Linn LP12 Radikal D Klimax, the VPI Classic 11 is IMHO not competitive. For your $10K budget, one could get a LP12 with Radikal D and Kore that would still be a better option than the similarly priced VPI. All IMHO.
"getting the intent of what the musicians are trying to convey is just as, if not more, important than getting all the notes correct". This line of reasoning and evaluation can also be traced back to Linn, and is just SO subjective. Art Dudley in his reviews often includes a discussion of the capability of a component under review to reproduce "intent". It just seems to me to be a very personal thing, this matter of a component affecting the perception of the intent of the musician(s) and/or singer. If two components create the perception of two different "intents" (whatever that means), how is a listener to know which intent is closest to the Artists actual intent? Should the Artist be asked what his intent was ;-)? Seems more than a little presumptuous of a listener to me! Can that ability to reproduce intent be in any way quantified (whatever that may mean), and is that ability universally observable and agreed upon by a group of skilled listeners? Does the perception of that ability change depending on the listeners state of mind and/or emotion? Can that ability be attributed to anything in the design of a component? Attributing intent-reproducing capabilities to equipment I admit tests the limits of what I consider valid evaluation.
If 10,000 was your budget, you could easily do better than a Linn. A VPI Classic II is about $4000.00 with a very respectable arm, that gives you quite bit of room for cartridges, step up preamplifiers, etc. And it is most definitely "plug and play". A close friend has one and it's superb. Further, no one had to come to his home and set it up and dial it in. It truly was fantastic right out of the box. He and I had it set up and playing in about an hour. So simple and straight forward.
That's what I wanted with my Linn, set up and enjoy. Not set up and "I think if I did this it would be better, or why does it sound like that?". I was constantly analyzing the performance of the table instead of enjoying the music.
My 42 year old modified Dual, and 58 year old Garrard were easy to set up and sound amazing. When playing either of them I don't ever think about "what can I do to improve the performance", I just enjoy the music. (and yes, there are many many tables that are much better than the Dual and the Garrad, but they are giving me what I expect, silent backgrounds, along with pace, pitch and power.) For me they convey a great deal of emotion that I experience with I listen live.
My friends VPI was like that. If I were buying a new table today, it would probably be a VPI, based solely on my experience with the sound and set up of his Classic II.
With most everyone having the day off, I am sure their is a lot of music being played today. Enjoy!
" What upper end turntable is plonk and play?" I’m not here to sell TTs, but by the application of brute force and weight I believe it is true of VPI TTs and probably many others. Every 2-3 years or so I lubricate the bearings and check for level and that’s it. Some people change the belt. I boil mine if I’m not using a thread. There’s nothing else to do. There is no "tuning." "Set up" is for the arm and cartridge: overhang, HTA, VTA, azimuth and VTF (and anti-skate if you use it).
" I would know this because I have heard the top of the line VPI and I have heard a well sorted Studer. Playing the same piece, the Studer left the VPI in the dust. If you really think a VPI can compete on the same stage as a Studer playing a master tape, well all I can say is I very very seriously doubt you have ever heard a top flite tape deck!" I don’t know what you heard and what was the condition of the record and the playback system. I used to own a Revox. Want to buy any prerecorded tapes? I have a bunch. I recall reading that HW has 7 tape machines and over 1000 pre-recorded tapes, many of them 15 ips master tapes. He is said to hold demos regularly comparing tapes to records. He "says" that Chad Kassem thinks that his VPI DD sounds like his master tapes, and he has quite a few. There have been at least a couple of TT reviews comparing VPI TTs favorably to tapes. If you doubt I’ll search some old files and see if I can retrieve.
" There is something about a record player looking like, well, a record player! The LP12 is compact , doesn’t require a lot of space and doesn’t weigh a ton. Nice and simple..plays the record. Some of these newer decks require an aircraft carrier to land on and weigh a hundred pounds ( or more ! ). The KISS rule has served me well in life for most things." I agree and I am annoyed that my TT is big, heavy and ugly. BUT it is simple therefore, simpler than a Linn and NEVER requires dealer intervention. Big also means it can accommodate a 12" arm which offers some advantages.
I liked the Linn. I just do not feel I was hearing 10k worth of table. The Benz should have sang on a 10k system. The Linn seemed as though it was Linn dependent. Linn everything or else.
What I object to is Arthur Salvatore's assertion that Linn simplifies the music. While Normansizemore's description of rolling the extremes might be a better description, if that's true, getting the intent of what the musicians are trying to convey is just as, if not more, important than getting all the notes(etc.) correct(in most cases). I did listen to needle drops on the Pink Fish Media, and none of the other tables were as good as the best Linn. Many tables were left out. but to give some perspective, that cheaper dd Technics wasn't in the same league as the Linn, although you could hear improvements in it, when he upgraded its parts.
The irony, zavato, is that Linn instigated and promoted the notion of "Linn vs the rest of the world" with their argument that all other turntables (pre-Linn) had been designed and built with a deeply mistaken assumption---that a turntable is an electronic device, rather than a mechanical one. And Ivor was quite correct! But other designers, it can be argued, have taken his design principle even further, and, employing "better" materials and machining, created tables whose performance beat the Linn at it's own game. Whether or not that is true is a different question.
I've followed how this thread became a Linn vs the rest of the world thread. That said, were I starting from scratch in vinyl and would sink $10,000 plus into a vinyl front end, I would consider the Linn once again. But it would not be the only thing on my radar. I'm deeply impressed by SME these days. AMG as well.
Heres as his I look at it- a top spec LP12 has to run about $20,000. In that price range the Linn is, I believe, competitive but it's not the only game in town.
I too try to live by the KISS method, but easier said than done! But one thing Linn nailed in the KISS universe is the three point cartridge mounting scheme.
Well folks, welcome to 2016. Let our biggest angst be disputes over the relative merits of the LP12 and whatever else.
Just to add.. There is something about a record player looking like, well, a record player! The LP12 is compact , doesn't require a lot of space and doesn't weigh a ton. Nice and simple..plays the record. Some of these newer decks require an aircraft carrier to land on and weigh a hundred pounds ( or more ! ). The KISS rule has served me well in life for most things. Just something that came to mind...have a great New Years guys! ATB, Mark
melm, I would know this because I have heard the top of the line VPI and I have heard a well sorted Studer. Playing the same piece, the Studer left the VPI in the dust. If you really think a VPI can compete on the same stage as a Studer playing a master tape, well all I can say is I very very seriously doubt you have ever heard a top flite tape deck!
I completely agree with you. I listen to live music often and that is my benchmark. I mentioned the second generation master tape as something that anyone with a quality open reel deck could enjoy and compare their analog rig too.
My Linn sounded soft, and very warm. I also felt it sounded compressed compared to my idler drive tables and a couple of direct drive tables I've heard.
My personal experience concludes that it is very difficult to get the table to sing. My purchase and upgrade path was nearly 10 years long. Nothing should take that long to sound right or be that difficult to dial in.
It could also be a simple matter of the fact that I don't like the sound of a Linn. No biggie. I know a number of audio nuts that don't care for the sound of idler drive tables and thats fine too.
What upper end turntable is plonk and play? They all sound their best when set up by a competent dealer. "Rolled off" frequency extremes are definitely not something I hear from my LP12's. Imho, the LP12 has been around so long that many opinions have been aggregated over the years in the audiophile community , many of them propagated by people who have not actually heard a properly set up deck.
" IF HW at VPI is trying to get close to the sound of the master tape, good for him, but I know he has a very long way to still go." And you would "know" that because . . . ?
" If the gear measures great and sounds great...then it is a winner...conversely if it measures poorly..and to me sounds great, it’s still a winner. " I would agree if you substitute "accurate" for "great". As someone famously wrote: A piano should sound like a piano!" The problem with may reviewers, not to mention audiophiles, is that they rarely, if ever, listen to unamplified instruments and singers and don’t know how they really sound. So much of what is written is so purely subjective: The reviews usually conclude by mentioning a number of recordings, usually recent ones, and their conclusion that they "like" the recordings as played by the component under review.
I can’t speak for the latest Linns but the Linns I have heard, admittedly going back a while, were notorious for sounding warm and rolling the frequency extremes. This results in a sound many people "like." But it has hardly been accurate.
That, and the complications of set-up requiring dealer interventions, put Linn out of the running for me. Obviously, YMMV and obviously does.
Norman, the Linn LP12 is not a 'right out of box' set it on the stand and good to go type of product. It has always needed to be set up by a competent dealer and "fettled" ( as the Brits say) to work its best. Somewhat like tuning a race car. If your dealer was unable to do this for you, again it was not the Linn's fault, but certainly one could look at your dealer! However, it has been my experience, that once the table is set up 'correctly' then it tends to stay that way through time and deliver the sound for which it is known.
rgs, who said that distortions are more accurate than the original?? Like you said, every TT distorts to some extent or other, as for that matter, so does every piece of gear that we use in our system. However, I am not one to believe that if a piece of gear measures greatly and sounds to my ears poorly, that it is my ears that are wrong. If the gear measures great and sounds great...then it is a winner...conversely if it measures poorly..and to me sounds great, it's still a winner. YMMV.
There are many things I liked about my Linn LP12 (and Ariston RD11s). The build quality was first rate, and it was a beautiful table. I had read so many positives about it, that I walked into my Linn dealer and purchased what he recommended certain that it would be an improvement over my old Dual 1219.
I know many who love their LP12's, and I have heard some that were much better than mine. It just seemed to be such a fight to get it to the level that I expected it should have been right out of the box.
I will make it a point to get to my Linn dealer and listen to the latest mods. Who knows?
"Comparing any TT to the master tape or even the 2nd gen tape on the likes of a Studer isn’t really fair"
This captures one of most common problems in audiophilia in general. Fans of particular designs feel it is unfair to compare their favourite to an objective metric, that is clearly on point, because the outcome of the comparison conflicts with their preferences. There is little doubt the Linn distorts, and that many people prefer / have a bias towards those distortions, and there is nothing wrong with that since the same can be said digital vs analog (or many wonderful tube designs). However, it is problematic when people attempt to argue said distortions are more accurate to the original when we have objective, applicable measures that clearly demonstrate otherwise.
Norman, sorry to hear of your issues with your Linn dealer. However, I do not think that the problems you had with the dealer are truly anything to do with the quality of the turntable. Unfortunately, you probably did not hear what your Lingo'ed Linn could really do...and you certainly have no idea as to what a Radikal D Klimax model can do. Just FYI, the Valhalla upgrade and the Lingo upgrade are both power supply upgrades. The only real motor upgrade involves the Radikal D. I would suspect you also were listening to one of the older 'shoe box' Lingo models. The latest Lingo Mk3 is a lot better than the old 'shoe box' model. Nonetheless, all of the upgrades you describe didn't bring your table to anywhere near what it is capable of today. As to the set-up, if this isn't done correctly, you are leaving behind more than half of what the table can give. Melm, if you have ever heard a Studer in a good system, I can tell you that it is a pretty big step up over even the best vinyl. IF HW at VPI is trying to get close to the sound of the master tape, good for him, but I know he has a very long way to still go.
"Comparing any TT to the master tape or even the 2nd gen tape on the likes of a Studer isn’t really fair."
Why not? That's exactly what the designer of the VPI TTs says he does to gauge his success (or failure, I suppose). A TT is not supposed to be a musical instrument, merely an accurate reproducer. Have I got that wrong?
My LP12 was purchased in 1992. I changed the top plate, the bearing housing, the trampoline was adjusted multiple times, grommets were changed, motor thrust plate changed, bearing flushed twice, two different mind blowing oils were added, then switch to Lingo direct couple power supply, Valhalla motor upgrade, second trampoline installed, top place modification, top plate replacement, Cirkus bearing upgrade. These were just the table mods, not to mention the four different tonearms I had on the table.
My Linn dealer was at my house so much I even purchased a Linn Table jig (which I still have.. anyone interested?)
So, I don't know and NO I can't say that I have ever hear the LP12 Radikal D Klimax, but you know what? I really don't even want too. My Linn experience left me completely exhausted.
Norman, I think if you like your Dual TT that is a very good thing. If it portrays the sound you are looking for, then nothing to complain about there. However, IMHO a Dual is not in the same league as even the oldest 70’s LP12 with a Nirvana power supply....unless the set up and the cartridge on the LP12 are totally shot! I know you have never heard a LP12 Radikal D Klimax or you probably wouldn’t be posting as you did. Comparing any TT to the master tape or even the 2nd gen tape on the likes of a Studer isn’t really fair. However, I can tell you that the Miles Davis KOB 45rpm MFSL on my TT has brought jaws to the floor of all a’philes that I have had over to listen. As they say YMMV.
Thing is.. I experienced much of what he was complaining about. I have had several turntables in my modest vintage system and by far and wide the Linn was the worst at communicating pace, pitch, power and musical presence to me. It just never had any drive. Comparing LP such as Miles Davis Kind of Blue on the Linn to a second generation Master Tape, the Linn isn't even on the same page. Play that disc on my ancient modified Dual 1229 and Grace 747 tonearm and suddenly I am in the game. The tape is better, as it should be, but the Dual does provide what I am looking for in LP playback. My Garrard 301 is also very good in this regard. A close friend has a Technics Sp-10 with a SME 3012 and it is sooo much better then the Linn it's comical.
I know those who love their LP12's and adore setting them up, and upgrading their various bits, etc.. Nothing wrong with that. I spent nearly four times the cost of the original arm and table in upgrades. It was so frustrating. I just wanted to hear the music played as it should. I didn't want to worry about what brand AC line cord I was using, or what power supply I had, or what type of belt, or what bearing etc, I had. I replaced all of that and it still didn't come close to my old Dual 1219 that I had prior to buying the LP12.
When I play a solo piano or guitar piece on my Dual 1229. the sustain of the notes is thrilling, the impact of drums, and the texture of voice life like. With the Linn they would dye off so quickly that it sounded like I was using a compressor for a preamp.
Hat's off to those who love the LP12s. If you find that the LP12 is your cup of tea, then you should use it and enjoy. Most LP12 owners I have met are usually thinking about, talking about or performing an upgrade. Really? Whatever happened to buying a table setting it up and just listening? My Dual and Garrard don't provide me one ounce of snob appeal, but man I am telling you they do sound musical and that is what I am after. For me, it's the music.
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