Have a pair of REF600M's coming this week. Current amps are a Krell TAS and a Bryston 3BST. Speakers are Thiel 1.6 and 3.6. DAC/preamps are Mytek Brooklyn + and Cambridge DacMagic Plus. More details as I get then burned in.
New Bel Canto REF600M using NCORE
Wow!!..Looks like John hit another home run at Bel Canto with the just released REF 600M using NCORE amplifiers. 300 watts into 8ohms. $4500.00 a pair. The REF 1000M is out of production. I have a feeling this is Bel Canto's best amp ever below the Bel Canto Black. Look forward to Guido checking it out.
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" I suspect the tubed LS25 is contributing positively to the musicality and lack of edge."Same for "the best preamps" they should be "totally transparent" like a direct source to poweramp connection, yet with control over the volume. Not adding "musicality" or removing "edge" if any. Cheers George |
hgeifman I bought a pair of Bel Canto Ref 600Ms about five weeks ago, and so far I am very pleased. They are still breaking in, but I already find the sound very clean and clear with dead quiet background and nice, musical articulation of acoustic instruments. I find no harshness or edge to the sound--once the system is warmed up. My front end is an Esoteric K-01 (mostly playing CDs) and an ARC LS25 Mk II; speakers are Focal Alto Utopia Be. I suspect the tubed LS25 is contributing positively to the musicality and lack of edge. As someone once said, "A good amp is like a sewer: What you get out of it depends on what you put into it." |
@mapman Funny you mention both the Ref600m and C5i because I’ve recently had both of them in house for a comparison. Using my PS Audio Directstream Junior and the SPDF Line In on the C5i, I notice very little tweeter hiss at low volume and high tweeter hiss as the volume on the C5i is raised. When I swapped out the C5i for the ref600m, the hiss was even greater, perhaps the loudest hiss I’ve heard from my Revel F208 speakers. This was all with the DSJ set to its higher gain setting. Switching it to the low gain setting dramatically reduced the hiss level. Still detectable but barely. I’m quite happy with this arrangement. I’m now the proud owner of the DSJ/Ref600m pairing. |
Please see this review on the Bel Canto Ref600 power amplifier: http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/bel-canto-design-dac-27-dac-and-ref600m-power-amplifiers/ |
@blang11, every amp regardless of type produces an audible hiss (heard from tweeter) when it is powered on and connected to efficient speakers. For those who believe or state otherwise I'd venture to say they simply cannot hear it. That wouldn't be unusual because we all know that as we age we loose the ability to detect high frequency, dome more than others. My ears are discerning enough that if I put them within an inch or so of the tweeter I can hear the difference between an amplifier that is powered on versus powered off. |
All this talk about noise/hum is a bit mute, without proper bench test results. The way to "pseudo" see what is noisier than what without looking at them on the test bench, is to disconnect the preamps and put shorting input plugs on the power amp inputs, this is a better layman’s way of saying what noisier than what. BTW some not all Class-D’s modules, don’t even switch their main section on, if there’s no signal present, they may appear to be on. And then there’s different amp gains to consider as well, as this also has a bearing on noise levels. Cheers George |
I’m using ICEPower units and have no such issue. The noise from the Parasound P7 is far worse, and still only detectable close to the speakers. If Bel Canto is using their own linear supplies however I could see this as an issue. Also, digital amps like ICEPower and nCore tend to have truly differential inputs that aren't very happy with single ended inputs and prefer transformer coupling in those cases. I wonder if this is what was experienced? << shrug >> Erik |
Steven Stone reviews the Ref 600m in the January issue of the Absolute Sound. In his conclusion, he states, “To my ears, it is good enough to qualify as the best all-around power amplifier I’ve heard to date, regardless of technology or circuit topology.” Chalk up another win for Bel Canto! While Mr. Stone does not dwell on it, he does note, “ With the Ref600M powered up I could hear only the faintest hiss if I put my ears within a few inches of the Spatial’s coaxial driver [his review speaker]”. He later compares his recently refurbished Pass Labs X150.3. “After its return from the factory, the Pass was almost as quiet in terms of noise (without a signal) as the Ref600M, with only a slightly higher hiss level and zero hum.” I find this very interesting. How common is this hiss/hum issue? Is it caused by class D topology? Seems not, given the reviewer experiences this even with his class A/B Pass amp. And is this issue caused by every product of a certain design or does it depend on what other components are in your system? All three of the class A/B amps I’ve previously owned were completely silent when powered on but playing no music. Putting my ear to the speakers revealed zero sound. Then I got my current Audio Research DSi200 integrated amp (class D) and it does produce a faint hiss from the tweeters and low level hum from the woofers of my Revel F208s. Close up, it is easily heard, but it’s faint enough that it can’t be heard from any further than a couple feet away, even in a silent room. I don’t feel this hiss/hum thing is a deal breaker. My current system plays music very well. But ideally, I would never experience hiss at all.
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I listened to a promo pair of these a few months ago, and I was finally impressed with the sound of Class D. But they were driving expensive two ways with an easy load, and in particular the ribbon tweeter was a nice flat 6ohm load impedance and flat small negative phase angle, which can to my ears make Class D sound not so good if it wanders too much in impedance and phase angle. So I wasn't sold, and have no opportunity to hear them on something more taxing to Class D. in the HF From what I gather they do stray from just the off the shelf NCore design, as I believe that Belcanto have do their own output filtering which is tricky, and from what I gather it's a few series up filters so they can still push the power though them without blowing them, yet get a sharper rolloff to get that nasty switching noise killed off without effecting the audio band too much. But then series'ing up filters has it own set of problems, eg ringing again?? At least their trying. Still to me the best way is to increase the switching frequency at least 5-10 times higher than what technology can do now. Then in the future when the technology allows this to happen, just a single filter will do the job of killing the switching frequency noise without it's artifacts being anywhere near the audio band. Cheers George |
Thanks for posting the link to the Soundstage HiFi review of the Ref 600m. I find the reviewer Roger Kanno's following statement a bit curious: "And as good as the REF600M was, it couldn’t equal the sound quality of the more expensive and more powerful Anthem Statement M1." I know that is quote mining and Mr. Kanno DID enjoy the 600m, but I find it curious because Kalman Rubinson of Stereophile reviewed the Anthem and ultimately concluded, "... in its present state I cannot recommend the M1. It imposed a tonal signature on the sound that was simply not neutral. Many successful audio products fail to meet this criterion, and some are perhaps designed to do so, but I don't believe that this was Anthem's goal." http://www.stereophile.com/content/anthem-statement-m1-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-2#S6oZGsORYp7A... I actually think that might be one of the harshest conclusions I've ever read in Stereophile. Take all of this with a grain of salt and throw in a dollop of "whatever floats your boat". I just find it interesting. For me, Stereophile is my most trusted resource outside of simply listening myself. I'm still riding the Ref 600m hype train and looking forward to auditioning soon. |
This is the first review I've seen of them. He seemed to like them, although not enough to push his Anthem's out the door. http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/930-bel-canto-design-e-one-ref600m-mono-amplifiershttp:// |
I haven't heard the REF600M myself, but all accounts I've read from those that have claim that they are a significant step forward from the previous BC models. The company felt so strongly about it to discontinue the more costly REF1000M since their newer REF600M outperformed it. That's quite a statement of belief in the newer product. Of course you'd be best off auditioning them in your system if possible, but it seems a pretty safe bet that if you liked their older series you should love the 600Ms. |
Hi, has anyone compared the REF600m with JC1’s? I am considering moving to the REF600m from my JC1’s. I am wondering if it would be a step up in SQ or about the same? If its either a step up or comparable then I will be making the switch. I love my JC1’s but they displace too much heat and I live in Arizona where our summers are HOT! I have owned the REF1000m and REF500m and I loved both these amps. I have tried W4S SX-1000 which I liked too. I didn’t have the best luck with D-Sonic M3-1500m. The M3-1500m sounded way too bright and cold with my setup. I currently own Salk Soundscape 8’s and have tried the amps mentioned with the Salks and also with my Dynaudio C4’s. Bel Canto comes closet to Class A/B sound that I experienced. A nice warm neutral sound with good tight bass is what I have experienced with Bel Canto’s. |
We have a demo pair in now and are just starting to put some hours on them, but already, these are quite a step up from their previous generation of amplifiers. They're detailed yet incredibly smooth with plenty of power, control and authority on the bottom end. There's a richness and naturalness to the presentation. Nothing remotely hard or fatiguing on the top end without sounding rolled off either. Very impressive so far driven by a Bel Canto DAC3.7. |
It appears that the Bel Canto REF600M will go down as a reference statement piece and will sit on top of Everest as the worlds finest Class D amp in its price range. With that said, another reference statement component that was also released this summer several weeks before the Bel Canto REF600M, is the new SST Phoebe II Preamp from Spread Spectrum Technologies. I actually have heard this preamp through a pair of Emerald Physics speakers from a Wyred 4 Sound amp on the low end and the SST Son of Ampzilla II amp for the mid-range and a Wyred 4 Sound DAC. One of the very best preamps I have ever heard during the past thirty years. A mind blower. Jerry Siegel's recent review and statement in 10 Audio online magazine, that it equaled the performance against the Levinson 326S at $11,500.00 and the $30K Levinson #52 with superior dynamic performance over both Levinson's. What really struck me is its remarkable organic smoothness, especially the high frequencies. Its holographic imaging, hall effect, echo decay, and its very three dimensional mid-range bloom, like the very best tube preamps on the market. The SST Preamp is derived from the Ambrosia Preamp. James Bongiorno and EJ Sarmento were working on these pieces together until James death, leaving EJ to finalize the designs with remarkable results. This Preamp has a very low output impedance of only 50 ohms, making it ideal to drive any Class D amp on Planet Earth. This Preamp is a perfect match for the Bel Canto REF600M. |
Bill k, There are too many confounding factors to compare the new REF600Ms against other amps. I replaced my dac at the same time I installed the amps: Bel Canto DAC2.7. I have owned VTL, Cary, Nuforce, Marantz Reference Series MA-9S1, and others. What I can tell you is that this system, with DEQX and Joseph Audio Pulsars sounds terrific. The sound is richer, more detailed, and has wonderful treble. The cymbals shimmer, with decay previously missing. The singers' voices are easier to understand, and there is no smearing or harshness to their voices. You should hear them in your own system. Color me very pleased. |
Please don't push that dead horse off the cliff it might still be ali.... Since there has been no outside post on this thread since July I thought I might upload a topless girl holding a Bel Canto Ref 600M in each hand with a quote saying "Look at those Bel's!!" hoping this might revive this thread. Hey Guido or anyone else, any updates on Bel Canto's best budget amp ever? |
John Stronczers' recent statement on the REF 600M to Absolute Hi End.."NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE SEEN THIS LEVEL OF MEASURABLE PERFORMANCE FROM A SWITCH MODE AMPLIFIER THAT RENDERS THE MUSICAL NOTE IN SPACE LIKE OUR ORIGINAL SET AMPLIFIER'S, AND GOES BEYOND WITH UNPRECEDENTED LOW FREQUENCY CONTROL, YET RETAINS THE SIMPLICITY AND EASE IN A e.One AMPLIFIER". |
Sorry for the late response guys.....I actually really still need to put more break in hours on the 600's to get an over all feel for the amps, but so far, I would say as good as the 500's where (I preferred the 500's over the 1000's), the 600's do seem better (even at this early stage). They are even more towards the "warmish" midrange/top end sound that the 500's were pretty good at. Also seem to have extremely good control of the bottom end with a more solid bass response. |
Guido, You know I listened to the JR M125 in my system and thought it was great. The M125 does everything very well, but doesn't provide deep bass. It's so good to me, that it convinced me to pursue higher end JR amps and ended up with the JR Continuum S2. I submit the M125 is great for small rooms with monitors. |
Sebastian is correct... So one more datapoint... ICEpower has not been relegated to the refuse-pile of history by any means... There are today new amp designs based on newest ICEpower modules that are said to have amazing musical performance. One example is the Rowland M125 bridgeable amp. http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=693 M125 is not a competitor of REF600... Less power and smaller power supply capacity... But I have heard reports according to which this is also an amazing sounding little amp... Sorry, I have not heard M125 yet. Guido |
I also have a 60w/ch bel canto c5i to compare. this is current model still also with ice power. Also recently I've auditioned rogue Sphinx and pharaoh integrated. I could easily live with any of these though none sound exactly the same they all perform quite well overall. I have never attempted an ab comparison. Just a general determination of thumbs up or thumbs down. Thumbs up for all! I can't see ever straying from class d at this point unless some sexy set or something totally new and different sucks me in someday. |
From what I read, NCORE (and also UcD) seems to be sonically step above what ICEpower currently offers. But there are other class D manufacturers that are also getting rave feedback, namely Pascal and Anaview. Many people say they are also sonically superior all ICEpower implementations. I think this is expected, as Hypex, Pascal and Anaview designs are a generation ahead of B&O designs. As Guido commented, probably ICE next generation will get better and may even be sonically preferred over current top choices. Everyone should try before buying these amplifiers. In many cases, due to upstream components, speakers, room accoutics, etc, the difference between a good ICEpower and an NCORE amplifier may be unnoticed. Finally, and very important to notice, class D is still evolving. In two years we can expect a new performance jump from several of the many designers. In this scenario, it is critical to try before buy, and maybe target to at least a two generation jump upgrade. |
Hi Mapman. Yes in theory you are correct... ICEPower 1000ASP, at least in theory, supplies 25% greater power than NCore NC1200. In my own system, NC1200 amps tend to create even more authority, a larger stage and images than 1000ASP machines... Go Figure! In my own system, in terms of audible intermodulation control, REF1000 Mk.with its custom input stage 2 did a fine job at freeing the treble region from jarring artifacts. Rowland M312 with its more sophisticated input stage, custom SMPSs and PFC rectifiers did even a little better. Yet, Veritas, which has no custom input stage to speak bout, and uses a stock non-regulated Hypex SMPS, is virtually free of audible intermodulative artifacts short of some rare boundary conditions. And then I could talk about harmonic exposure, micro detail and micro dynamics, and the sheer joy of listening to emotional music.... Which a very small number of older ICEpower amps deliver through a lot of ingenuity of their designers.... While NCore modules seem to be able to surpass even through some of the simpler amp implementations. Does this mean that ICEpower is passed history? Not at all... I am sure that ICEpower will once again rise to the forefront with new offerings... Just not in any amps I have heard yet. G. |
Guido, Can you quantify in what way the newer model would outperform the older ones? Of the 3, Ref1000m would still seem to have to set the mark for wattage. 600 is newer Ncore versus the others older Icepower, so apples/oranges there. I would expect newer Class D modules within a line should outperform older in terms of bandwidth, etc. as the technology improves. Then there is always how each "sounds" which is more subjective versus performance which typically must be measurable. I own ref1000m. How it sounds exactly is a function of teh entire system playing. How it performs is not. |
I agree with Bill... With the premise that I have not heard REF600 yet, I have found REF1000 Mk.2 to perform comfortably above REF500... And every NCore amp that I have listened to this far has comfortably outperformed the admittedly lovely REF1000 Mik.2. Hence, I conjecture that REF600 likely outperforms REF500 on all audible parameters. G. |
