I've used all above mention tubes in my ARC SP11 MKII.
Telefunken E188CC by far is best sounding in the right placement. What I mean is they sound best at phono section.
Extend highs and very nurtual sounding. But if you placed them on line and play CD it sound hard edgy and little bright.I end up with Amperex 7308 JAN in the line with E188CC in the phono. |
Thanks for your observations, Jim. I'll listen a little more closely for changes in tube sound whenever I roll tubes. |
. Tvad No, I have not, and new EH tubes are not what I consider new NOS. They are new...not New Old Stock, are they not? Maybe I don't understand EH stock No, I do not consider Current made tubes as NOS. I was only trying to make the point that whether the tube is current new, or NOS new, there is a burn-in period. == Picking a fight? C'mon, I'm answering your question as honestly as I can. I haven't owned any new NOS tubes, so I can't answer your question since I don't have experience with their burn-in characteristics. Sorry Grant, After rereading your post tonight I agree you were honestly just answering my question. For that I apologize. == You do realize that many tube sellers grade tubes as NOS if they test new, even though they are used, right? Yes I know that. If a fellow Agon member represents the tubes as being new NOS, and through emails I determine the person is sincere I take him at his word. So far I believe in each case the tubes were new NOS. From my own experience if I buy used NOS tubes just after a few hours the tube's sonics does not change, what you hear is what you get. Sometimes if the tubes are used and and have been out of commission for, say, 40 plus years the tubes may take a few more hours of reburn-in. I always wondered why this was the case and then I ran accross a post over on AA that shed some light on it. http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tubes&m=180913As for new NOS tubes this is what I have found from my experience. When first putting the tubes into service the sound of the tube is tight, sound somewhat compressed, bass somewhat shallow, and usually highs a little rolled off. After about 8 to 10 hours of use the tubes start to open up. More air, bass getting deeper, highs a little more open, midrange opens up not as compressed. This process continues as the tubes burn-in. From my experience, at least with the Siemens CCa tubes it takes about 20 to 25 hours before the true sound of the tube comes through. After that the change is more subtle. I basically had the same expereience with a pair of new NOS USA white label early 60s 7308 Amperex tubes. =========== 06-11-06: Glory
Jea48,
Thanks for your input.
I have a Audio Note dac with Amperex white label gold pin PQ shield USA.
I just bought the Siemens CCa gray plate that is in the mail.
I am about to pull the trigger on the Telefunken E188CC for $325.00 new in the box and sealed. >>>>>>> This was the reason for my post in regards to burn-in of the tubes. I guess I just assumed "Glory" bought a new NOS Siemens CCa as he was ready to buy a new NOS Telefunken E188CC tube. Jim |
>>When Wall Street hits 20,000, it will make economic sense to pay this kind of money, but until then . . .<<
That's your opinion. Others disagree. If one has the financial resources, equipment that will clearly reveal the sonic improvement, and ears to hear that improvement it makes sense to them. Again don't criticize what you don't understand and/or can't afford. |
Tvad,
I bet your hair rocks!! |
Hve you never bought a new current made tube of today? Maybe an EH, new in the box, just a few hours burn-in is all you need, the tube will sound the same after 15 or 20 hours?
You can have the final word....
Jea48 (Threads | Answers) No, I have not, and new EH tubes are not what I consider new NOS. They are new...not New Old Stock, are they not? Maybe I don't understand EH stock. Picking a fight? C'mon, I'm answering your question as honestly as I can. I haven't owned any new NOS tubes, so I can't answer your question since I don't have experience with their burn-in characteristics. You do realize that many tube sellers grade tubes as NOS if they test new, even though they are used, right? I said I respected your experience if it is different. What more can I say? There's no fight being picked, and my hair looks pretty good today. |
I don't believe I have ever owned any tubes that could be verified as new NOS (as evidenced by a seal on the tube box or the like), although I have owned many tubes that tested NOS or better, so I cannot definitively answer your question. However, all the tubes I have owned have sounded the same on the third listening session in a succession of three four hour sessions (or less). That's my experience, and it's all I can offer. If your experience is different, then I respect that...and I want to know your source for verifiable new NOS tubes. :) Wow Tvad, having a bad hair day? You will have to pick a fight elsewhere. Hve you never bought a new current made tube of today? Maybe an EH, new in the box, just a few hours burn-in is all you need, the tube will sound the same after 15 or 20 hours? You can have the final word.... |
Grant are you telling us that a New NOS tube sounds the same to you after a couple of hours burn-in than when you have accumulated , say 15 or 20 hours on it? I don't think so....
Jea48 (Threads | Answers) I don't believe I have ever owned any tubes that could be verified as new NOS (as evidenced by a seal on the tube box or the like), although I have owned many tubes that tested NOS or better, so I cannot definitively answer your question. However, all the tubes I have owned have sounded the same on the third listening session in a succession of three four hour sessions (or less). That's my experience, and it's all I can offer. If your experience is different, then I respect that...and I want to know your source for verifiable new NOS tubes. :) |
I would question whether better sound after 25 hours is directly related to the tubes, or whether it is related to all the electronics warming up, and capacitors fully charging, etc. Of course, if all the gear is left on 24/7, then perhaps the 25 hours on the tubes is the cause. No, I do not leave my tube gear on 24/7. 25 cumulative hours. I turn on my system and let it warm up for about 30 minutes with a source playing then I sat down for listening. Grant are you telling us that a New NOS tube sounds the same to you after a couple of hours burn-in than when you have accumulated , say 15 or 20 hours on it? I don't think so.... |
A few hours of burn-in would be appropriate, IMO. 25 hours would be unecessary...also IMO, although at least one tube dealer has mentioned the necessity of 24 hour burn-in for some NOS tubes. He specifically mentioned this regarding tubes quieting down. My experience has been that extended burn-in did not mitigate tube noise. I would question whether better sound after 25 hours is directly related to the tubes, or whether it is related to all the electronics warming up, and capacitors fully charging, etc. Of course, if all the gear is left on 24/7, then perhaps the 25 hours on the tubes is the cause. 06-11-06: Bojack
...they were not worth this kind of money when compared to other brands (Philips and Amperex) that sounded as good or better in my system. The key words here are "in my system." The general consensus is that CCa tubes do indeed sound better in many systems, but as always, one's results may vary. Clearly yours did. Perhaps down the road in a different system that you assemble, the differences will be more evident. |
Broke-in? If tubes don't sound good after 8 hours of warm-up, then they're the wrong tubes for the application or the listener's preference. We're not talking about capacitors here. Hi Tvad, even eight hours would be a break-in period. I purchased two new pairs of the Early 60 Siemens CCa tubes about a year ago. And yes after a few hours they do start to open up. After about 25 hours they sounded even better. Even used NOS tubes that were not in service for many years need a few hours of Burn-in, maybe a better word, would you not agree? Jim |
Tvad,
Nice to get a reply from you and others. I have had both exact tubes in preamps (AA M3A) and a CD player (Tjoeb 99). They were nice (not exceptional), and they were not worth this kind of money when compared to other brands (Philips and Amperex) that sounded as good or better in my system. And BTW, stating that 400.00 for a pair of tubes is NOT "black and white" thinking as Glory states; rather, it is thinking influenced by a semblance of economic reasoning. When Wall Street hits 20,000, it will make economic sense to pay this kind of money, but until then . . . |
After you have the Siemens CCa broke-in post back with your opinion of the tube.
Jea48 (Threads | Answers) Broke-in? If tubes don't sound good after 8 hours of warm-up, then they're the wrong tubes for the application or the listener's preference. We're not talking about capacitors here. |
06-11-06: Glory
I have a Audio Note dac with Amperex white label gold pin PQ shield USA.
I just bought the Siemens CCa gray plate that is in the mail.
I am about to pull the trigger on the Telefunken E188CC for $325.00 new in the box and I can only speak for the sound from my Sonic Frontiers Line one preamp, with that said, I prefer the sound from the early 60s Siemens CCa tubes to the Telefunken E188CC tubes. Imo the CCa just has a better overall musical presentation. After you have the Siemens CCa broke-in post back with your opinion of the tube. Same if you buy the Telefunken, let us know what you think of the two tubes. Jim |
Tvad your point is well taken. There exists, among many audiophiles, a belief that all Cca tubes are created equal. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Having used Siemens and Telefunkens from different production runs there is no doubt in my mind that Cca guarantees very little. I've heard and used Amperex and Philips 6922 that were far superior to many Cca. My humble advice when buying tubes at the price levels discussed is know your seller. It may cost a few dollars more but also save a lot of headaches. Caveat emptor. |
Following up on Audiofeil's post, he made a very important point regarding low noise. I went through 6 Siemens early 60s CCa tubes before I found two that were quiet in my system. Quiet CCa tubes are rare, and it's one reason they cost so much (not to mention scarcity of CCa in general, and buyer demand). BTW, the noisy CCa tubes cost $400/pair, too, but for that money, I insisted on having quiet tubes, and I kept returning them to the E-Bay seller until I had two that were quiet. |
Bojack, last year I paid $400 for a pair of 1972 NIB Siemens low noise 7308. Yes that's a lot of money. However, they clearly outperformed any 6922/Cca/E88CC/E188CC, etc. I had heard previously in THAT particular application. Would they have made the same difference in another preamplifier or Glorys' Audio Note? Dunno, but don't criticize what you don't understand. |
Jea48,
Thanks for your input.
I have a Audio Note dac with Amperex white label gold pin PQ shield USA.
I just bought the Siemens CCa gray plate that is in the mail.
I am about to pull the trigger on the Telefunken E188CC for $325.00 new in the box and sealed.
|
I have a pair of each of the Telefunken E88CC and E188CC tubes. Both pairs are great sounding tubes. The E188CC is by far a better sounding tube than the E88CC. Imo the E188CC has a fuller midrange sound. The E188CC is a lively sounding tube, it does a great job of keeping up with fast changing music if you know what I mean. Clean sounding though the Telefunken tubes are not as warm sounding as the USA made early 60s Amperex PQ 6922 tube or the early 60s siemens CCa tube. For the money and sound you can't beat the early 60s USA Amperex PQ 6922 tube. You can still buy them at a reasonable price. Install the Herbie's HAL-O tube dampers near the top of the tube and enjoy.
Though I do not have any personal experience with the Holland made early 60s Amperex PQ 6922 tubes I have heard the sound is similar to the Telefunken tubes.
What piece of equipment will you be using the tubes in? What sound are you looking for?
. |
Bojack,
To some $400.00 is a days wage and to others pocket change and still to others a weeks wage and so on.
If you list your system and price paid I can then go through it and see if you are a fool or not.
Your statement is meaningless regarding the fool who is willing to paying $400.00 for a pair of tubes.
As for as the scam artist statement is concerned I pity your wife or close friends as you are to black and white in your thinking. |
An E188CC tube is a big improvement specs-wise, over an E88CC. E188CC is another name for the 7308, both being prized in the tube world.
I think tubes are definitely a flavor kind of thing, very system and audiophile dependent. I may prefer this tube for its low end, but you might dismiss it out of hand because of something that irritates you.
I used to wonder how different people could prefer different tubes, as the rankings always felt more or less clear cut to me, but I now I strike it up as a vanilla/chocolate kind of thing. For example, I am not a fan of most Russian tubes. The Slovak and a lot of the current (and I do stress, current) Chinese tubes appeal to me a lot more. But, as I read these threads, a lot of people I respect like the Russian tubes better than the ones I like. I don't understand it, and don't agree, but people should run what they like best.
Still, in my experience, better tubes are worth the additional money. If you're the type of guy who has some serious money invested in your system, it seems automatic to me that you'd strive to have the best tubes you can get. You'll definitely hear it, and the effects can often be far more than subtle.
All this being said, "better" must be found through experience, as it doesn't often correlate with price. As an example, we have been running a lot of tube shootouts, and have found a few new tubes that can match or even exceed the stratospherically priced classic varieties. In these cases, you can live well on a fraction of what is normally considered the way to go. It's really great when you sell your $300 tubes, and replace them with a $6 tube! The end goal always being to maximize sonics, factoring in value. |
Talk about a fool, I recently paid $235.00 plus shipping for a used LP that won't even fit into a tube socket :^). |
I don't know, but I do know that anyone wanting that much is a scam artist and anyone willing to pay it is a fool!
Bojack (Threads | Answers) Bojack, please share with us the auditions you have conducted with Siemens CCa and Telefunken E188CC or Telefunken E88CC in your system. Otherwise, which 6DJ8/6922 have you found to be exceptional, and in which components do you use them? |
I don't know, but I do know that anyone wanting that much is a scam artist and anyone willing to pay it is a fool! |
