Although the McIntosh MC275 costs $6,500. it hasn't gone up relatively in price. Some well known brands are shooting for the rich market, because they have increased prices out of all reason, where people have more money than they know how to spend; nice work if you can get it.
The nightmare of the cartridge buyer...
I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2...
I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor.
The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!)
So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere!
Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2...
I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor.
The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!)
So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere!
Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
319 responses Add your response
Dave I take just the opposite stance as you took below; almost all of the cartridges recommended on this forum are fast and resolving, but not "musical" enough for me; in other words, the favored cartridges sound hard and lean to my ears. "I personally believe that a buyer looking for a resolved and fast cartridge would be in for a shock....just based on the glowing Hyperbole filled reviews." |
@chakster It is clear to me that you have adoration for old cartridges that have a specific type of sound. Good for you. However, when you motion that my friend must have done something wrong or had a faulty cartridge, you are right...what he did wrong was to play the vintage model in the first place! You fail to see why any of these models can do harm...to that I say there may be numerous ways. Here's just one I can think of, the stylus was worn and damaged the groove ( oh, you say, we can have that checked by a 'professional'! What a joke! I had exactly that done years ago with a Kiseki I used to own, pro tells me it looks fine...problem was that he had NO clue as to what the original stylus shape should look like and therefore what a damaged facet looked like either! Do you really believe most of these guys have a clue about this aspect, because I don't). Remember also that a number of vintage models have different shapes of the stylus, some of which could be considered as close to cutters today! You mention cutting lathes, what is their main purpose...to cut grooves! Perhaps you don't believe this, but it takes just one play of a record to do irreparable damage to the groove....you want to take that risk with those old beauties! Like i said before, go for it! Now back to the original topic, I'm done on this subject. |
@orpheus10 No, I did not end up with the Koetsu. The only Koetsu’s in my budget are probably too warm for my system. Although I may add one in the future. I also question whether they are that resolving --compared to a more modern design, like a Lyra, for instance. You mentioned ’hyper resolving’ leading to a lean presentation. I have no way of knowing this unless I hear the particular cartridge in my system, wouldn’t the same apply to all of us? Or to put it another way, perhaps a ’hyper resolved’ cartridge is exactly what one needs in one system and precisely what one does not in another. The lean potential could be totally system dependent, how would we know? Unfortunately, to really know the answer to these questions is one of the reasons why I started this thread... The theory is what I stated above, the reality---is anybody’s guess! |
Just to digress... An hour ago a Threshold FET10 preamp and phono (separates) was delivered. Bought here on Audiogon a few days ago.Plug i them in and start listening to the sound. Right off better than my Bryston BP1.5, (which has seemed to become dry and thin over the years.) I thought the problem was the Benz Glider.. Nope. With the Threshold the Benz sounds great. Full, detailed, pristine ... like it should. SO.. how much of the whining about cartridges is just the rest of the system? |
Dave, the only way I discovered the cartridge I bought was lean and hyper resolving was to purchase it. Almost everybody recommended it. One man's lean, is another man's "fast" and resolving. Since it was obviously a good cartridge, it took a long time for me to come to the conclusion that it wasn't the cartridge for me. Long term critical listening to your favorite music is the only way to determine whether or not the cartridge is for you. This is such a difficult process when taken seriously, that it has to take more time than dealers would allow. While you can evaluate a pre-amp, or amp in short order, not so with a cartridge; that takes more time. |
Dear @daveyf : It's absolutely clear and useless to follow with the same specific issue that almost no one of us can listen in our own home system the cartridge loaned/borrowed by a dealer. As @lewm said: that possibility just gone for ever. Now, in the last years i listened in my own system cartridges from 4k to over 10K. Some I own and some coming from my audio friends. In those last years no single of those high price LOMC cartridges performed bad or that definitively I did not like it. All sounds good but different and some of them sounds more alike than different. We can't make that new top LOMC cartridges can goes at lower prices but in reality over the next times prices will follows the trend: higher prices. So is useless try to fix this issue. Then what can we do about?, some premises to explain my way of think in the whole regards: - true music lovers/true music audiophiles are more alike than different: at the end what we want is to listen MUSIC at its best in each one home audio system. - true music lovers/true audiophiles are gentlemans that have as a reference: live MUSIC because attend to live music events. So all of them know for sure how MUSIC sounds, how instruments performs at near field seat positions. - if those two premises are true then our home audio system are builded according those premises and this means that we already took care to choose each single link in the home audio system chain very carefully, especially our analog rig: TT, TT plattform, Tonearm, PhonoLinePreamp, IC cables and deep knowledge level to cartridge/tonearm alignment set up. So, in some ways we are: " experts " about and we know what we want it and how achieve it. We know for sure all the " problems/degradations " of the recorded signal and playing signal proccess and can distinguish between sound and sound+added distortions. - we read cartridge reviews and knows the tonearms where were mounted and we already learned to read reviews " between lines " on each reviewer: we know what that reviewer wants to sale/sold us: we can detect the " hidden information " in those reviews. - the whealthy gentlemans normally have less knowledge overall music&audio levels that the ones that as me are not whealthy. So we are really carefully to tup everykind of mistakes at minimum. - we know perfectly the resolution of our home audio systems, its advantages and disadvantages. With all those know-how ( we are no rookies any more ) we can buy a high price LOMC cartridge with almost no risk that we make a mistake with. The risk is at minimum. @daveyf : are you a rookie or have doubts on your audio system? No?, then you have not to worry and pull the triger with any cartridge youwant it that your knowledge tell you will works wonderful in your room/system ! ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R |
@chakster + 1 The OP seems convinced that 'vintage' cartridges will inevitably sound mediocre compared to new top price MC's and that they will damage his records. He is wrong on both counts. On the first count: I have two modern cartridges, VdHul XPW Blackwood and Transfiguration Proteus (both retail price,over 5k) as well as a whole parade of 'vintage' MC's from the '80s (all priced between $500 and $2000). Of course they're all different and I do have my favorites, but none of them sound mediocre compared to these two modern cartridges. Don't buy into this fairy tale that 'new and expensive' is better by default. It simply ain't true. On the second count: I've never damaged a single record with any of these vintage carts. All you need is a loupe and a little experience inspecting the stylus. And if you don't trust your own eyes, send it to one of the experts that offer a check up for a small fee, completely eliminating any 'risk' of damaging your records. And how about those vintage records from the 'golden age of vinyl' we cherish for their sound quality? What sort of record players and 'needles' do you think these LP's were played with in the '50s and '60s? Nobody heard of VTF, VTA, SRA or azimuth back then....... Apart from accidental damages or mishandling, most of those 50+ year old copies have survived crude playback conditions very well and still sound great on modern high resolution systems. Do you really think a vintage cartridge from the '80s in good condition will ruin these with one play? Get real. |
Davey, What more do you hope to achieve by perpetuating this thread? Not only do at least 50% of the responders lack sympathy, but also none of us, including you, can do a darn thing about the current situation. I do also think you are being a bit childish if you haven't investigated the possible arrangements with a certain few dealers whereby you might actually secure a home trial. If that's what you really want, that's where you should place your effort. Some likely sources have already been named. Frankly, I don't care if you won't buy a vintage cartridge; that leaves one fewer buyer competing in that market for the very few worthwhile purchases I have not already made. Have a nice day. |
@rauliruegasi have been in this hobby for decades, not that that makes me an expert...as so many on this thread consider themselves. Unfortunately, to my ears, the various cartridges out there have VERY distinct sounds...some of which I feel are more listenable than others, irrespective of price. Some of the models sound too warm, some are too bright, some are veiled and non resolving. Do they all sound good, as you say, not to my ears, to some of these other experts, I’m sure they do. Here’s my point, I fail to see why a cartridge consumer has to take a financial risk by buying one of these expensive cartridges when all the dealers have to do is stock them and display them....which IME almost none do, and secondly have a demo model available for home usage. Now, if we were discussing the old days when the best cartridge were $200 or thereabouts, that’s a different matter, today we are talking tens of thousands of $$’s,...which to some folks is peanuts, but I suspect like you stated to a whole bunch...it isn’t. (I think you actually included yourself in this category). Therefore, I am attempting to come up with solutions to the way these cartridges are sold and marketed....which may be a futile effort, based on several of the ‘no problem, I love the status quo’ responses that I am seeing. ( which, frankly, was exactly what I was expecting here). If the status quo doesn’t bother you, then it’s all good. |
It does bother me, at the very least what I can do is not buy cartridges at those prices, especially without auditioning in my system, regardless of whether or not I can afford them, that's irrelevant. I can afford a $50 cup of coffee in New York from time to time, I never buy it and never will. Nor will I allow anyone to buy it for me, by the way. If someone got a problem with this thread and the OP one can easily take a hike and go buy one of those cartridges. While you do that try to think about the concept of intrinsic value, unless it would burden your intellect too much of course. What a bunch. |
To address another point regarding cartridges of, say, similar level sounding different, of course they sound different, though it is hard to hear them sound without arm, table and phono. It is called coloration. Turntables of similar level also sound different, again hard to listen to them without cartridge. Coloration as well. The whole vinyl based system is colored big time. If you want less coloration get a reel to reel deck and master tape dubs. Same with tube rolling - different kinds of coloration, substituting one with another. Still can be better than metallic and lacking natural complexity transistors. |
One thing I find curious about this thread is that at no stage has the table and arm been mentioned. We know that synergy is important; nowhere more so than in vinyl replay. There will typically be a few carts that are known to play well with a given table and arm, so that immediately helps to narrow the choice. And with a good dealer to advise, I don’t think it’s that difficult to get a fix on what a cart is contributing to the system’s sound when hearing a demo with one’s own table and arm — sufficient at least to avoid the “mistakes” that the OP fears. Of course, this approach does not work if one wants to expand the options to carts not usually paired with a given table and arm, but that way madness lies, and I would rather get on with listening to records than wandering around that heath. |
@pingvin, you bring up an excellent point. The type of arm and the table will certainly have a lot to do with the result of changing the cartridge. I haven’t even mentioned the varying parameters that one needs to consider in buying one of these cartridges... the output level, the compliance of the arm, the ability of the arm to adjust the variables that some cartridges require...ie VTF, VTA,Azimuth SRA etc. and the ability of the cartridge to be fitted into the head shell...( yes, some won’t work on various head shell designs)...and other variables....the phono cabling, the tonearm cabling and so forth. IME, if you get these items wrong, you are going to get a different sound out of the particular cartridge in question....some cartridges more than others. You state demo with your own table, unfortunately that is where one of the issues lie...almost impossible to do that. @inna. I like where you are coming from. I would very much like to see the reaction of some of these guys if ( and that’s a big if) they had gone out and a) bought one of these pricey high end cartridges, without auditioning it first...and based on just some review, had it installed in their arm...then listened to it sound like Sh—-t! I bet these same guys would then be screaming to the rafters...bunch of hypocrites.imo. Oh,instead they are all going to tell me b) that this is what big boys do...and losing thousands of $$’s is no big deal, that’s all part of the game, lol. What do you think they will do...a or b? |
Well, most people follow herd instinct and nourish their narcissism. Interesting combination, isn't it ? So whatever they do will be trivial. I just wonder what is going to happen when good food becomes 10 times more expensive? If this happens people who at present buy $10k cartridges without auditioning will become hunted, hopefully only for money to buy food not to have them for dinner. But who knows ? Someone might want to hunt me too - yes, I did buy $995 cables once ! Yes, without auditioning. But I am well familiar with the brand and I consulted with those whose opinion I could trust. |
I have a curiosity that I hope you will engage me in. I am happier than a hog in slop with my cartridge.(that's the cleanest euphemism I could think of at the moment, you substitute your own) Since we all consider the cartridge the most single important piece in an analog rig, I'm curious as to why you chose your favorite cartridge, what is your favorite cartridge, and why you think it's so special? My cartridge is the Grado Master 2. Since I began this hobby in 1970, I've experienced a lot of cartridges; non more expensive than my present cartridge. This cartridge seems to emphasize all of my music, and make it more musical; comparing to colors; the reds are redder, the blues bluer, the yellows are ....; you get my drift; I'm a listener not a critic, or a reviewer. Could you describe what makes your cartridge so special, and why you chose it. |
Dear @daveyf : I think that you have to re-read carefully my last post to you. """ Some of the models sound too warm, some are too bright, some are veiled and non resolving. """ All those are characteristics in cartridges that makes differences. Forgeret to have in your system a top cartridge/high price to listening it before you buy it, it's futile/useless to continue with that issue. Like you I'm not happy that I can't do that but we just can't fix it, so why insist on it?. Go a head, move on . You don't " win " nothing staying sticky with. """ Do they all sound good, as you say, not to my ears ...""" top cartridges/$$ all sound good accept it or not, there are not bad performance cartridges down there only different characteristics that just does not goes with your pririties but exist the ones that goes with you: just buy one of these and please don't post that you have to listening first. Where are all those music>/audio decades you posted of self experiences if you can't decide which cartridge to buy ! ! ! and repeat that I don't like it the way cartridges are marketed but we can't fix it, at least not you or me. So take it or leave it and live happy with what you decided. Re-read my last post to you. R. |
@rauliruegas Firstly, I am not as convinced as you, or some others on this thread, that this issue cannot be 'fixed' or at least made a lot better than what the current state is. Secondly, I don't know about you, but I happen to think that 'blindly' buying ANY gear in our hobby is far from ideal, and will ultimately lead to major disappointments; regardless of how much 'experience' you think you have! Thirdly, as I posted before, I don't happen to think that all top flite cartridges sound good...to my ears there are some that i have heard that I wouldn't give you $5- for...never mind the ridiculous price being asked! Right now, there is a lot of chatter about one of these designs that has a major problem with sibilance in the high frequencies, so much so that there are consumers who are beginning to very much regret its purchase ( and no, I won't be disclosing which model it is). It is becoming clear to these folks that this particular design is deeply flawed from a technical perspective. Problem is, what do these very same consumers now do with this cartridge, sell it into the used market at a huge discount is the answer. So, yes we can all take it or leave it and live happy with our choice, or in the instance I pointed out above...live unhappily with our choice. I hope the translation of this post to you makes sense. |
@daveyf Perhaps you should look at this from a different angle. We all know perfectly well there's a global consumer market in which 10k is considered pocket change. It is precisely this market that these cartridges are aimed at. They are just trophies for people who like to show they can afford the best, or at least the most expensive. Sound quality is not their obsession, so why bother with a demo? That's for dummies. It seems there are also some regular folks, who have been led to believe that these absurdly priced cartridges offer some magical sonic capabilities that are only attainable at this exalted price level. But for them these things really do cost a fortune, so they want 'service' in order to make a considered purchase. Two different worlds and they'll never meet. I'm afraid the situation is much worse than a nightmare. It's the reality of extreme capitalism. The audio business community has made its choice, so deal with it or get smart. |
@edgewear. Very interesting post, and one that I basically concur with. OTOH, are you suggesting that because the system is broken, that there is no need to try and fix it? If we don’t start somewhere, then the status quo remains. Now, this situation is maybe what the majority want, and I’m sure it works just fine for most of the dealers ( you aren’t one...or are you?). If that is the case, then so be it; but I can tell you my points in my OP still stand....and I strongly suspect for many folks this situation is not acceptable. Live with it, sure we could, but the question might become....why do we have to? |
95% have-nots service 5% haves, more so in Russia, some Asian and South American countries. This country is currently moving in the direction of third world countries, somewhere in-between right now. So I will actively participate in this extreme capitalism. I will buy nothing regardless of cost and whether or not I can afford it unless the terms are reasonable as judged by me. Simple enough. |
Dear @daveyf : You want something that make sense ( I conccur with you. ) that just can't be fixed in a " no-sense " market. It's a figth that you already losted before start it. It's soemthing like this: in the last 3 years I posted several times ( more than six times. ) something to do for we each time we buy new LP's we can receive LP's with out: off-centered, true flat surfac with out no single wave, zero surface noises of everykind, etc, etc. In all those times that I posted very seriously about I said that WE CUSTOMERS ARE REALLY THE MARKET OWNER, THE ONES THAT PUT THE MONEY FOR THE INDUSTRY CAN GROW UP BUT THE MANUFACTURERS AND DEALERS JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT AND ONLY TAKE OUR MONEY. AS WITH CARTRIDGES EACH TIME MORE MONEY HIGHER PRICES. In all those posts I said that we are the culprit for things happens and follows happening and the only way to stop to those " hunger $$$ $ " manufacturers/dealers of LPs is that each one audiophile on earth stop to buy not even a single LP. Those posts were read it not only for Agoner's but for people of other forums that read but not post in Agon. I can tell you that not a single Agoner gave an answer or sugguested soemthing about. From my part I stopped to buy LPs. @daveyf , the reality is that we customers deserves everything we have because we don't care about anything that's affecting all customers. Tell the whealthy gentlemans that stop to buy the high prices cartridges till the dealer/manufacturer policies changes in favor of we customers and you know what they do just: laughing of you. If we don't care about LP's...... go figure in what we cares ! ? ! ? ! The aphaty/indifference that we seed is what we all collect. That's why the corrupted AHHE always takes advantages of each one of us. R. |
I agree, cartridge prices, specially MC, are nuts. They are so fragile that I can't imagine spending more than 1K on one...I have had a Denon 103r broken by kids, an SAE 1000LT and an Ortofon Quintet Blue needle broken during apartment moves. It's a bad situation. Hana seems to be a good, well priced solution currently. |
@daveyf Oh yes, the system is broken and it definitely needs to change. And change it will: capitalist society cannot exist without the prospect of infinite economic growth and obviously that’s not possible. It seems we’re getting closer and closer to the point where earth will no longer sustain the environmental conditions congenial to human life. It’s either system change or climate change, so something has to give. Let’s hope humanity will come to its senses in time and change the system around before the planet does it for us. Things are definitely not looking good, yet I try to be optimistic, because..... what else can you do? Thankfully there are some signs of change and I personally hope that an embedded ’crowd’ economy of collaborative commons will gain momentum as a new and more inclusive model for the next society. So no, we don’t have to accept the current situation. However, it’s highly unlikely the ’revolution’ will start with our hobby, being the insignificant little niche market it is. I don’t know about you, but I’m not holding my breath for the first ’high end MC’ sharing platform.... Oh, and I’m not a dealer so no axes to grind! |
Love love love my Lyra Delos and my all things Analog dealer Stereo Unlimited in San Diego painless experience including demo in store on my table which helped clinch my decision to also buy a fantastic HRS base robert spent a few hours putting my table together, dialing in the Delos and tweaking the loading on my Nova II enjoy the music !!! |
I don’t get it. Where’s the joy in the experience? So much cynicism and negativity around an endeavor that, it seems to me, should be joyous and exciting in it’s sense of discovery. Not unlike listening to the music itself. There are so many good options available; and some don’t cost many thousands of dollars. Elizabeth nailed it, “a pleasant walking fantasy”. I just finished listening to Herbie Hancock’s “Maiden Voyage” courtesy of my freshly re-installed Empire 4000DIII Gold and like the Acutex 420STR it replaced (which replaced a VDH Grasshopper) it reaffirmed for me just how much great music a good vintage mm can make. Chakster is correct in his praise for them. I have three very good mc’s that I like a lot, but I regret being seduced by the mystique of the mc when I was first getting involved in this hobby many years ago. I would have been far better off buying some of the great, now unavailable, mm’s instead. $10,000+ cartridge? Seems a little obscene and indulgent; but, that’s just me. |
Two thoughts: if the difference in retail prices between Tokyo and the US is truly as stated, there's plenty of margin to offer, on a selected basis, a loaner or two to qualified potential buyers, most probably previous clients of the establishment. Secondly, in almost every business that sells directly to consumers, the retail locations are given an additional discount on the loaner and/or display pieces they use to market the items. Somehow I doubt that cartridge manufacturers are so neanderthal that they don't offer some sort of similar program that, combined with the Asia vs North American price differential, couldn't make home auditioning a possibility. Clearly, it sounds like for some brands, it hasn't. |
@ethiessen1. All good points. I have to believe that as the price increases with these cartridges, so do the margins. It would therefore seem highly appropriate to me that the manufacturers should incorporate some kind of program to allow home auditioning. As you can see, so far in this thread, most people seem to believe that isn’t possible, but I think it’s a cop out on the manufacturers behalf, and possibly the dealers also. Like i stated, the dealer that ultimately received my business allowed for a home audition, and was very generous with the terms. |
$5,000 MC carts are an excellent argument for digital streaming! They’re difficult to buy, finicky to optimize, easily damaged, they degrade with use, AND they don’t just depreciate, they’re essentially perishable. I’m not saying bring back the "penny needle," but give me a good $400 MM any day of the week and twice on Sundays. |
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Here is one thing I have learned, surprisingly from Yamaha dealer training: Never buy anything from a dealer who badmouths his competitors products. It means he is too lazy to learn what is good about his own, or like many sales people, has dealt with companies such as Yamaha Powersports. I learned this by listening to the Yamaha reps who had nothing but lies to tell about Sea Doos (We sold both). A quick example: SeaDoos are not at all reliable, like Yamahas, because their compression is so much higher, creating more stress for similar horsepower. Fact: Like everyone but Yamaha, Sea Doo Measures compression from the bottom of the piston stroke to the top. Yamaha measures it from the opening of the exhaust port to its close, about 2/3 of a stroke. I used to deal with Audio by Caruso in Miami. He would hold my check until an agreed upon time, by which I would keep the product or return it for my check. He did this the first time we met. I was given a time, buI did not even know he was not cashing my check until he handed it back to me. There are good dealers If a dealer wants to make a couple or few thousand on you for a stupid cartridge, he should set it up in his home, if necessary. BYW, My neighbor was a rep for several high end brands, including B&W. He sold me whatever I wanted at his cost, exactly half of retail. Very few, if any Asian companies use margins like this. Buy from the dealer who want works for your business, or buy Asian with a credit card. |
If you are a serious and well healed potential buyer of a $10,000 cartridge or a $50,000 turntable or, god forbid, a tonearm, believe me, there IS a dealer out there who will get on an airplane and fly even to your desert island in order to demonstrate such products. I know personally of such a customer (who is my neighbor here in the DC area), and his "dealers" (plural) fly to DC from the West Coast, or drive down from NYC, in order to do demos in his home. But they know he has done business with them in the past. Thanks to my neighbor, I have gotten to hear some megabuck products on demo at his home and sometimes in his ever evolving system. As occasionally is the case with Darwinian evolution, audio evolution can go in both directions. Alwyn, No one wants to talk about scale or value, because that is not the subject of this thread. Yet you are not the first person to bring it up; so in fact some people DO want to talk about scale or value, regardless. It's tiresome. |
I understand the pain of buying at full price and do my buying used for the most part I have purchased some great cartridges such as Benz Lp, Van den hul Frog, and recently a Audio Technica Art 9 I paid between 700 and 1200 and they sound and play great. There is definitely a risk in doing it this way and you can’t audition them but Resale is always an option if you don’t like the sound on your rig |
Offering something for sale and finding people who are willing to pay the price is not a "rip off." It is capitalism at its finest. It doesn't matter that the cost of materials is much lower than the selling price or the mark up is very high, everyone has the option to buy it or not. If you think it is a reasonable price, you can afford it, and you want it, then buy it. If you don't fit any of those categories then move on and quit whining about it. Something (anything) is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. Pissing and moaning about the price of something you can't afford or don't see the value in is just that... pissing and moaning. Move on. Pontificating about it here or elsewhere is a waste of time. I think people who are willing to pay what I consider to be the highly inflated price of a Harley Davidson are wasting their money, but I don't think ill of the company or the dealers for how they are profiting, or think ill of the buyers who somehow feel justified in paying what they are asking. I personally feel that the price of fine jewelry is way above what it is worth so I don't buy it even though I can afford it, but I don't judge those who do buy it or sell it. And one final note to those complaining that a dealer makes a profit, which is directly related to the OP. One reason that he can't find a dealer where he can audition is that the vast majority are gone because even with what I consider to be a reasonable mark up, they couldn't make enough to keep the doors open. My little town (about 100,000 people) had multiple dealers back in the day. Now we have Best Buy. Most people (including me) abandoned the local dealer for a better deal on the web. We are the reason we have no local dealers... think about it. |
@alwynlarryv Your post made me laugh out loud! Are you certain that these folks are doing this! Seems that you are, LOL. Let's not talk about margins here....as lewm stated, well maybe we should just a little- as this is my thread... Let me state again what one of my good friends, who also happens to be a well known a'phile reveiwer/writer stated a few years ago about a lot of audio cables....the mark up there is ONLY 800%!! Which means that the rest of audio industry is trying their best to catch up asap, LMAO! |
Consider a cartridge by Hana; they are said to be outstanding and for petite cash. Hanna made by Excel Sound in Japan, this is an old OEM manufacturer, Mr.Fremer visited them and made a video, watch it here. |
