@auxinput,
Way ahead of you on that one. While I like Geoff’s take on lots of things, his humor, and point of view, he does like to provoke, prod and needle, even when people agree with him or don’t exactly line up with him while still being on the same side.
There’s been may times when I felt like asking: why the hell did you just say that? But he is what he is as I am what I am (with all due apologies to Popeye). 🤔
All the best,
Nonoise |
auxinput
I am pretty sure that nobody actually "loves" GK posts!
And I hate to use the term, "sides".
More this should be viewed as differences of opinion.
At least that is how I look at it. |
+1 nonoise, I was just going to say that it seems that people are arguing just for arguing sake. The other comment I have here is that I notice that geoffkait really just pours gasoline on to fire. I know he has said in the past that he is just trying to diffuse arguments with comedy, but I think this is really only an excuse to post very insulting comments. I know that there is a tendancy to love his posts because he is on your side, but it is very much creating a mob mentality. Keep that in mind as you read. |
This is WAY too deep for my poor tired head.
Cant we just argue about fuses instead? |
So, this isn't about fuses at all, is it?
You just love to argue.
Got it. 👍
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It most definitely doesn’t take the prerequisite of faith to perceive God. That much has been clinically proven. In fact, I think the perception tends to precede the faith.
My point is that if mere perception endures as evidence, we can dispense with the delusion of objectivity right now. That demonstrable nonsense. How we experience the world has practically nothing to do with how the world really behaves. Our perceptions are an abstraction predicated on phenomenon way beyond our organic ability to observe the true nature of.
P.S.
I'm at work so I basically have nothing to do. |
There's no difference at all. Explain how there's a difference. Really? You want all of us to go that deep into the weeds to see who can construct the better argument over a faith based perception vs. an empirical one, and have that be the underlying explanation or refutation of aftermarket fuses? Don't you have better things to do like build that dual mono amp so you needn't try a different fuse? All the best, Nonoise |
Would you say that's a very broad definition? I read that and thought "Gosh... If we're taking that as the meaning of "evidence", we've got a problem because direct observation seems to contradict instrument assisted observation." It would also seem to lump in subjective observation without discrimination. |
Kosst
That was just first Google result...lol
Not saying I agree or disagree
I just found it interesting.... |
There's no difference at all. Explain how there's a difference. |
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kosst,
There you go again, conflating two very different forms of perception.
As Milania would ask of you, Be Best.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I'm just characterizing exactly how Uberwaltz defined the evidence here. |
Nurse! Thorazine! Code Blue! Man down! Man down! Get well soon, Costco!
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Oh! Cool! I'm going to remember that next time somebody questions the existence of God! Tens of millions of people have perceived God and documented it so His existence is now scientific fact. I kinda like that definition! |
Carry on with your mischaracterizations, conflating of terms, and misunderstandings.... But kosst, that is precisely what you just did when you said: By definition, empirical measurements require the use of a commonly accepted scale of some weight or measure. Therefore, no listening test can be empirical. Without some empirical scale, the "listening measurement" (a true oxy-moron) is purely subjective You don't get to rewrite or revise the meaning of words to suit your purposes. That's sophistry 101. We know better. Stop talking down to us. You were doing fine there, for awhile. All the best, Nonoise |
Kosst
Likely nobody has questioned your assertion about the failing of the power supply as nobody really desires any further fruitless and pointless arguements. |
Empirical evidence as defined by Wikipedia Empirical evidence, also known as sensory experience, is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation. The term comes from the Greek word for experience, ἐμπειρία (empeiría).Empirical evidence - Wikipedia |
@geoffkait
....and the rest of the confused crowd,
By definition, empirical measurements require the use of a commonly accepted scale of some weight or measure. Therefore, no listening test can be empirical. Without some empirical scale, the "listening measurement" (a true oxy-moron) is purely subjective. It could only be objective if there were such a thing as a standardized ear and perception and all conceivable variations controlled for. You people aren't even doing a basic multi-variant analysis, which is the closest you could possibly come to a useful, scientific analysis.
I'll also take note of the fact nobody has of yet questioned my assertion that susceptibility to the influence of a fuse is a failing of the power supply.
Carry on with your mischaracterizations, conflating of terms, and misunderstandings.... |
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Good one, Moops! You’re firing on all cylinders.
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Gk
I bet I know what you hear much better than you know what I hear.
You're reading comprehension is grade school level. Is your hearing totally shot too? Playing that Walkman too loud?
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mapman
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
answer: c) somewhere in the middle. Expensive to be called a gift. Also it is not even of any value to talk in general about sound quality of "designer" fuses. That means just appearing fancy and being expensive. I do think some fuses work better than others and there are many that work extremely well that are not "designer". There is a definite snake oil factor. There are rational ways to choose a fuse like any other electrical component. You can choose just because you believe nothing more.
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
Yes.
Well, they can’t be much of a gift if you can’t hear them. It’s much better in cases like that to use an inexpensive Littlefuse or Busman fuse and be dine with it. Audio Nervosa is not good for anyone. How do you know if some fuses work better than others if you can’t hear them?
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Op
Would that information be that basically the human race are collectively a bunch of aholes?
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Thank you again to participants. You are supplying the necessary information for my purposes. :)
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TBH I hate the term designer fuses or boutique fuses and would never refer to them as such
Aftermarket fuses is my term of choice.
I honestly cannot say as I have tested differing brands of said fuses so really cannot comment, maybe one day when I am really bored I may try one of these honey filled confectionary ones, sorry mean AM Beeswax just to see.
The only snake oil factor I have ever seen or heard about comes from the abject naysayers....... |
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
answer: c) somewhere in the middle. Expensive to be called a gift. Also it is not even of any value to talk in general about sound quality of "designer" fuses. That means just appearing fancy and being expensive. I do think some fuses work better than others and there are many that work extremely well that are not "designer". There is a definite snake oil factor. There are rational ways to choose a fuse like any other electrical component. You can choose just because you believe nothing more.
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
Yes. |
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Geoff, I believe you mean dyed-in-the-wool as in black and blue. : ) |
Big things have small beginnings. - Lawrence of Arabia
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And all this because of a darned fuse...... |
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On the dodgy subject of empirical evidence, Exhibit A from somewhere in cyberspace is presented below. “Only quote facts.”
“Empirical evidence is information that verifies the truth ( which accurately corresponds to reality) or falsity (inaccuracy) of a claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when based on empirical evidence (although some empiricists believe that there are other ways of gaining knowledge). This stands in contrast to the rationalist view under which reason or reflection alone is considered evidence for the truth or falsity of some propositions.[2] Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists. This is the primary source of empirical evidence. Secondary sources describe, discuss, interpret, comment upon, analyze, evaluate, summarize, and process primary sources. Secondary source materials can be articles in newspapers or popular magazines, book or movie reviews, or articles found in scholarly journals that discuss or evaluate someone else’s original research.[2]”
To make matters considerably worse for the oft obstreperous died-in-the-wool naysayers, in the case of fuses we have both observational AND experimentational evidence. Sweet! So, It certainly appears there’s a whole lot of denial going on here. |
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Agreed Mapman.
But on the flipside nobody should fly off the handle just because they do not like the other parties observations either.
Needs to be a lot of give and take, something that is sadly lacking at times here with certain members.
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Nobody is obligated to accept the empirical observations of others. When that does not happen, something is awry and someone should do something about it if they really care. Brow beating someone probably won't help. |
@geoffkait Very well said and perhaps the best summation I have read regarding the attitude some have adopted. |
Costco-emoji, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you seem to not know what empirical evidence even is. Empirical evidence is that evidence gathered from observation. You know, like listening. We observe with our senses. Our sense of touch, hearing, vision, etc. You seem to dismiss listening as proper evidence as if nobody can hear, as if everyone is always fooled, as if everyone in the world is deluded except you.
Dude, wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ In a hobby that is all about listening and being able to distinguish subtle differences in sound your persistent and vociferous claims that these sensory abilities should be ignored or don’t exist come across as well, rather bizarre. That you would engage in such an angry and angst ridden campaign against fuses and other controversial tweaks seems, well, kind of neurotic.
In any case, on with the inquisition!
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Auxinput,
What objectivity exactly? Your perceptions? The same perceptions that are interpreting my rational seeking of empirical evidence as an attack? Those tools of perception are the ones you want me to accept as "objective"? Uh..... I'll pass.
Bottom line. Power supplies should be impervious to the kinds of perturbations you're talking about, especially at the prices you folks are paying for them. Maybe theres something not being properly evaluated in power supply design. I don't know. All I do know is that it shouldn't make a difference. That's the sole purpose of the power supply. |
and that now sounds like a troll message. Anyways....if you feel that we are the religious zealots, that is interesting because we are only responding to your "attacks" saying that we are completely wrong in our objectivity and results -- where you have not even listened to an upgrade fuse. 1" of A/C circuit is important, especially when the conductor is going to be a really thin wire somewhere between 20awg and 26awg that is typically non-damped and tensioned in air (which will have electrical mechanical resonance just like a guitar string would when plucked). I can even tell differences when using the larger 10 amp type fuses with the thicker/higher awg conductors. I just recently went through an exercise comparing big 10A fuses in a receiver (Hi-Fi Tuning Silverstar, Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme, Furutech, stock). All the 10A fuses still had different sonic signatures. The differences were drastic enough where it sounded like completely different amplifiers. There are definitely other areas which affect sound, like power cord connectors. If you look at a standard IEC connector, there really is only about 1" of conductor as well, but there is an audible difference between an IEC connector with gold-plated conductors and silver or rhodium plated conductors. Same thing occurs with RCA connectors (another element that is less than 1" long!). There is a definite audible difference between an gold-plated copper RCA plug and a solid pure silver RCA plug. |
Auxinput,
Really, the folks in favor of fuses are much more the religious zealots than I am. There's no objectivity to their conclusions. Of the tends of thousands of tweakers and DIY'ers out there with benches full of gear, none of them seem to have substantiated the claims made about fuses, or exotic outlet materials, or a host of other claims. It's just patently false that any human has hearing more sensitive than your average scope. I'm curious what's going on here, why people think they're hearing things. But the claims being made so often are hard to believe.
You're going on about end cap material, conductor, and the envelope... Over 1 inch of circuit! What about the other 100 feet that are 5 or 10 percent tolerance? Traces on PCB that are just plain old copper. Lead solder joints. The yards and yards of wire in the transformer. You know what they use in sensitive circuits in computers that need protection? They use high quality, purpose built resistors. It's an entire categoy of resistors made to do that. You can get them with all kinds of properties. There's just so much that seems fishy to me in all of this.
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I understand people who do not believe fuses make any difference and I understand trying to ask for "measured proof". However, I do not think it's cool at all make it one's mission to ensure any new users are discouraged from the idea of trying aftermarket fuses at all. That's almost like a "religious extremist" attitude. If you have not actually sat down and listened to different aftermarket fuses, I really don't think you have any real objectivity to say that "fuses do not make any difference at all". For those who have actually listening to fuses, I think I have seen exactly ONE user who posted that they could not hear any difference (which is totally fine!). All other people on here that have actually experimented with fuses have posted that they do, indeed, hear differences (whether it is positive or negative for them). There is definitely an electrical character that happens with fuses, since they are inline to transfer current/electricity. The same goes for power cords, interconnect, speaker wire. I think there are definitely a few things about fuses that can dictate how the end-result sound is: - conductor material, such as silver, gold, copper, and tin can contribute to the character of sound (just like power cord material). - conductor / end-cap plating (such as gold-plating, silver-plating, rhodium plating). Just like power cords, this can influence sound from A/C current. - internal conductor material / damping (such as filler material or liquid - like beeswax or power type filler). This helps reduce electrical resonance that happens on that very small wire. The glass tube or ceramic tube can also affect electrical resonance. The above points can probably be measured in some way (there is definitely measured results on the conductivity of different materials such as copper/silver/rhodium). Though, I'm not sure anyone will really sit down and actually do these types of measurements on fuses because, at this point, it doesn't really have any fiscal value to do. There is no "return on investment" to spends thousands or tens of thousands to do these level of tests. As far as cost is concerned, it's all about perceived value and "what the market will bear". In my testing, I definitely have no problems spending $60 on a fuse upgrade. I'm not to the point where I want to put $150 on a Synergistic BLUE, but many others have and love their fuse. Though, I can understand other points of view. Just like why a person would drop 6 grand on a Rolex watch when you can spend a few hundred to get a nice item that does the same thing. |
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Stereophile’s monthly circulatiy in 2013 was 72,156. I think it’s safe to assume their website traffic is much higher than that. I can’t find any total numbers for the big forum sites. The US loudspeaker market by itself was $1.44 billion last year. That doesn’t include Bluetooth speakers, sound bars, or the like. The home audio market is worth $3 billion. |
Kosst
I would agree that the number of aftermarket fuse users is indeed small, tens of thousands as you say.
However it is not in a market of tens of millions that they should be related to.
Those tens of millions are NOT high end audiophiles. That group number significantly less and dwindling every day unfortunately.
The tens of millions include appliances and applications that have no relation to high end audio at all.
Tbh I really do not know what the number of audiophiles would be worldwide, I do not believe would number tens of millions at all but I do not have that data to hand.
As far as perception of reality, I would need a few more drinks before entering that arena.
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Mercedes have been winning F1 championships with Lewis Hamilton and after market fuses. Lewis only pits for fuel, tires or after market specialty fuses. They have Bayesian computer algorithms to determine which fuses to use and when. Some fuses work well in the wet and some are better at higher altitude and some will lower the aerodynamic drag of the vehicle, others are excellent for braking. Fuses are so important they call it F1.
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Uberwaltz,
Put into perspective the number of boutique fuse users to the literally billions of people who uses dozens of devices with fuses in them every day. A few tens of thousands in a market segment of tens of millions worldwide, in a population of billions. I'm not sure such a minority qualifies as a significant voice. There are probably more flat earthers in America than boutique fuse users. I don't think that means flat earthers might have a point.
Beginning with the premise that reality is a certain way, or could even possibly be that way, is a huge step to experiencing it that way. I tend to be skeptical of realities that lend themselves to delusion and misconception. I think it's dangerous. I think it's wiser to begin with a reasonable basis to believe reality is a certain way before trying to perceive it as such. |
Obviously, modded gear would benefit similarly from aftermarket fuses. Indeed. It would be like keeping bald tires on your car after souping up the engine. |
Kosst.
What you say about value of engineering makes a lot of sense tbh. And I can see a solid thought process in there.
Now though, and not wishing to be antagonistic here,but just HOW have all the aftermarket fuse manufacturer achieved the sales they have worldwide?
I mean it can’t be mass hypnosis or just thousands of gullible buyers, not even the most ardent naysayer can truly believe or propose that. |
Obviously, modded gear would benefit similarly from aftermarket fuses.
WHY????? Explain this please, enlighten us. |
@douglas_schroeder
You really don't get it, do you? It's about the value, of which, there's none. What's the appropriate cost for a fuse in a $5000 amp? $50$? $100? How much bigger can you make the heatsink for $50 or $100? Much bigger. How much bigger can you make the transformer for $100? Much bigger. How about the filtering capacitor value? Or better filtering? That money goes much further in adding meaningful, measurable performance in other areas than any fuse will. You think real engineers are wasting their time with fuses? |
Imo it is irrelevant to reference DIY or Mods as an argument that aftermarket fuses are without merit. The question was not fuses in comparison to DIY and Mods, but in comparison to stock fuses. Obviously, modded gear would benefit similarly from aftermarket fuses.
I guess the premium designers and manufacturers don't know what they are doing when they use subjective listening as their final step in tuning a design. Some of the assertions here are ludicrous and show profound ignorance of the industry activity. :(
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kosst,
I hear you. I can't afford to buy any of the more expensive fuses either, but then, I can't convert any amp to full dual mono either. Seems like $30 was the right amount to spend for me.
All the best,
Nonoise |
