Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, lets try to put things in some context, and than hopefully we shall make some conclusions.
'the great ones will not play for a lame "leader"; but, that leader may sometimes not be on the same level as his sidemen.'
I guess that goes other way too, the 'great ones' probbably would not pick the 'lame' sidemen.
My question for you is this, if the couple of the 'great ones' repeatedly choose the same guy for their albums, would not that be the sign that he is 'considered' as 'equal? If Randy Crawford was good enough for A.Jamal and J.Smith, certainly I would give him some credit.
The questions is should he be compared to the so called 'best', like Wes or Burrell? (I am not a fan of Benson)
If the answer is 'yes' than, I think, we are only narrowing our choices.
How many players could be in that 'league' where there is
'no comparations'with others? Not much, I guess.
This is not the best analogy, but, should we compare the skills of every artist with ones of Rembrandt?
Than, you said 'I cannot think of one single example of a player who was "the one" and then simply disappeared from the jazz scene.'
How about these couple clips?

Already above mentioned (with Leo Wright) trumpet player Dave Burns

https://youtu.be/5ebeHafmsDA

Another trumpet player, Howard McGhee,like him a lot

https://youtu.be/nilp-xPq0Y0

Herbie Nichols, complex figure

https://youtu.be/e2lSBn1egDE

Billy Bauer, I have mentioned him here before,played with Konitz, made only one album as leader

https://youtu.be/G9x_74wc71c

Or maybe Phineas Newborn Jr. Aldo, he is already considered as someone 'famous' at least among musicians.

https://youtu.be/mADxQjfxL54

Michael 'Dodo' Marmorosa perhaps?

https://youtu.be/cudV3FkT3bY

Would like to hear others people opinions on subject.
Hope its not a dull topic

Alex, I mean no disrespect but, as I see it, you are contradicting yourself. First you make the statement that the mentioned "forgotten" players are "equally as good" as the not forgotten, and now you state that they shouldn't be compared to the Rembrandts of musicians. Well, if Rembrandt was the best artist (your suggestion) and if certain other artists are "equally as good", then shouldn't those other artists be compared to Rembrandt?

Re "the one"

Now I am not quite sure what you mean by " the one". You asked if there has been a player that was considered and be "the one" at some point and then disappeared. Let's see: Lester Young, Bird, Coltrane, Miles, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Lee Morgan, Freddy Hubbard, to name a few, were all considered to be "the one" at some point. None of them have been forgotten. I am sorry, but to my ears none of the players in your first post are in that league, the "Rembrandt league"; and none, to the best of my knowledge, were ever considered to be "the one". As I see it, the fact that they have not remained as famous as the one's I mentioned corroborates my point.
BTW, I acknowledged that Randy Crawford is a good player in my comments; only that I dont think he is as good as players like Wes or Burrell; both of whom (certainly Wes) were considered to be "the one". I don't understand why you feel I didnt "give him some credit". Also, with the exception of Dave Burns I consider the players in your last post to be better players than those in your previous post. And I don't consider Herbie Nichols, Marmarosa, Phineas Newborn nor McGhee to be "forgotten" players at all. I don't consider Dave Burns to be in the same league as Miles, Hubbard, Morgan, Navarro, Clifford and many others.

You seem to have a broader, more inclusive, range for what you consider "the best" and my range is narrower. Works for you, and mine works for me; there is no problem. BTW, I have no idea why Jimmy Smith hired Randy Crawford other than the fact that Crawford is a pretty good player and probably couldn't afford Wes Montgomery as his sideman :-)

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VA1FbojzULk

BTW, the lead alto in the saxophone section is the great Phil Woods; RIP.

Who is/was great, and who is/was not great, and why, is an almost impossible question to answer. Too many variables.

Some few Possibles:
They could not play as well as the greats
didn't work well with others
They were drug addicts
They were not very attractive people
did not kiss the right ass
pissed the wrong people off
did not want to pay the personal price it takes to be great
were one hit wonders, But really didn't have anything to say(brubeck)
spent long periods of time in jail.
had mental problems. Quite a few musicians were nuts.
were satisfied to just make a living. no drive or ambition.
played for themselves and not their audience
where ripped off my the sharks in the business, quit in disgust.
lived in the wrong place/time.

Three things that will allow you to understand the universe. Including the Jazz/Music business. Notice the word 'business'.

(1) Numbers Count.--- How many times something happens, will determine our attitude towards it, and how we react to it, or perceive it.

(2) Facts Matter. Facts cannot be ignored. Reasons can be argued and emphasis placed here and there, even excuses, but, Facts cannot be changed.

(3) The unwashed Decide. --- In any capitalist system, the tastes of the masses(the folks with the most money collectively) will decide what is for sale. Which is another way of saying, who/what is successful.

The answer is in there somewhere.

Alex: The subject is not boring, it's fascinating. Instead of the usual, i.e, the Rich and the Famous, we are discussing the Poor and the unknown.

Cheers

Frogman, point I am trying to prove is quite simple. I'll do my best to futher clear my thougts in a hope that we can stop the 'debate' and continue to recommmend good music to each other. So, hope that everyone will forgive me, here it is, one more time...
'I think the idea of the "forgotten player" or the player that "didn't get his due" is mainly overstated and often a myth'
'If we look at players' careers in the context of an evolving art form and changing times it's not difficult to understand why soem players become famous and some do not'
'the BUSINESS of music was making it much more difficult for anyone (and their recordings) other than the very best to stay in the limelight.'

With a part of last sentence I would agree, that business is often the factor that has the final word, usually on expanse of art.
What I wanted to say, with those few random examples, is that in history of jazz were much,much more players
who were 'quite good' or beter, or even 'one of three' like in case of P.Newborn J.R. that actually never made it, and who were recognised late or by too few people.
Jazz music of the past, in general, is fading into oblivion, and hardly we can talk about fame or recognition in some wider sense of those words.
Comparing the very best (the 'Rembrandts') and known figures to others does not put things into right perspective, because than the book of jazz would have just a couple of pages. Someone might say that Hubbard is good, but not in a same league as Dizzy?
That is not the point of 'discussion' that I am trying to make, just the opposite. Like Rok said, lets talk about those less fortunate, who left their mark, no matter how insignificant it seems to be. They were in majority, after all, and I am sure that we shall discover some very fine music indeed.However, one may have a different opinion, and standards, of course, like you said. For sure that will lead to a much smaller collection of music,but like you said, we all have our choices and I certainly respect yours.
That's all, folks
https://youtu.be/Q3bbsDJWlXQ

P.S. Frogman, I cant open your clips, it just leads to you tube...

P.P.S. Griffin's 'Studio Jazz party',with D.Burns on trumpet, and Norman Simmons on piano. I have mentioned him on this pages, again, not a well known name

https://youtu.be/Wu0qnePU3Os

I would add a couple of things and emphasize a couple of things that have already been pointed out:

The jazz music scene is a small world. Musicians during any era know who the best players are from reputation and seek them out and give them exposure when they tour and this enables those musicians to make contacts, meet producers etc. It is at that point that many of the factors that Rok points out kick in. However, it should also be pointed out that the better a player is (the more he/she has to say), the more that he can overcome his limitations in the social graces department. IOW, if you're good enough, almost short of going around causing bodily harm, you can get away with a lot of bullshit.

****Some few Possibles:
They could not play as well as the greats****(ALMOST always the case)
didn't work well with others****(Bird would fall sleep on the bandstand and they still wanted him)
They were drug addicts****(Coltrane, Pepper and countless others?)
They were not very attractive people****( Ella Fitzgerald?)
did not kiss the right ass****(If you're good enough you don't have to kiss ass)
pissed the wrong people off****(see above)
did not want to pay the personal price it takes to be great***(Agree)
were one hit wonders, But really didn't have anything to say(brubeck)****(not sure of the relevance)
spent long periods of time in jail****(Art Pepper for one)
had mental problems. Quite a few musicians were nuts.****(Tom Harrell is a schizophrenic)
were satisfied to just make a living. no drive or ambition.****(Agree, but then, what does that say about what they have to say musically?)
played for themselves and not their audience****(Miles always turned his back to the audience)
where ripped off my the sharks in the business, quit in disgust.****(Agree)
lived in the wrong place/time****(Sort of agree)

I think there is a danger in being too lose with the term GREAT. If we can all agree that dynamos like Mingus, Trane etc. were great, and if all these others are also great; then what, exactly, is it that distinguishes a Mingus or Ellington? What should we call them instead? If it ia true that, as Rok says, the unwashed decide, well it's pretty obvious who the greats are. As far as who COULD HAVE BEEN great goes, once
you take the romance and personal tendencies to make excuses out of the equation, there aren't too many who didn't get what they deserved.... IF THEY HAD WHAT IT TAKES TO BE GREAT TO BEGIN WITH.