Jazz for aficionados

O-10, these conversations are obviously limited by the nature of an on-line forum. Sometimes comments can come across as overly opinionated or even judgmental. To my way of thinking, participation in a forum like this presumes confidence on the part of participants in their own reality. You demonstrate that and I respect that fact. But, what does a dissenting voice do with the conflict created by their own and different reality? I hope we can all agree that as long as respect is shown, the voicing of that different opinion is appropriate.

I must say, that the posture that a different reality is irrelevant to any given participant creates, imo, the kind of conflict that renders participation itself moot and irrelevant. To my way of thinking, if dialogue is not the goal, then what is.... aside from learning what others' like? Iow, I don't think that the goal should be for each of us to just show what good taste in music we each have, or to be told what good taste in music we all have. If we are not all prepared to hear about others' different reality or opinion what then is the point of all this. Your goal in starting this thread as stated in your OP was to "review" recordings, and presumably offer opinions of agreement and disagreement. My main issue with the discussions is when I express a point of view about a player (positive or negative) and offer precise reasons why I feel the way I do, and the disagreeing voice simply says "you're wrong" or "I disagree" or something along the lines of "well, it's just how I feel" and nothing more. I don't call that a discussion or dialogue.

On the issue of objective/subjective reality we will simply have to agree to disagree. There are, in fact, many objective aspects of music making that determine for me and many others wether the music or the playing is good or not. Of course subjectivity plays a major role, but it is not the only factor. There is nothing "wrong" with not wanting objectivity to enter into our sphere of knowledge, but just as the other approach may render those opinions irrelevant to you, the subjective approach renders those opinions irrelevant; an unfortunate reality all the way around.

Acman3, great clip of Woods and Harrell. As I know you are aware, Tom Harrell is one of the (relatively) unsung heroes of the modern jazz trumpet scene. I am particularly fond of his flugelhorn playing. Beautifully warm sound with fantastic time feel and harmonic creativity in both horns.

For anyone who wants to get "geeky": since we have been talking about "fusion" and David Sanborn, it should be noted that John Purcell, the alto player in the Jack DeJohnette clip was Dave Sanborn's "sound consultant" for many years. If there is any interest, I can relate some pretty wild stories about that relationship.

Wayne Shorter is one of the very greatest jazz musicians to have ever lived.; up there with the likes of Bird, Coltrane amd Miles in stature. Like Coltrane, Miles (an probably Bird, had he lived) his music was constantly evolving and moving in a new and different direction which reflected the times. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest jazz composers with compositions that are especially sophisticated and often complex; but never for the sake of complexity. One of the most fascinating aspects of his playing for me was how it became more and more economical through each successive stage. He has gone from a player that could burn it up with the best of them in a hard bop fast tempo, to one who (by choice) can say what he has to say with just a couple of well inflected and poignant notes. In the early 80s, after his time with and as co-founder of Weather a Report, he started his own "fusion" (there's that word again) band. "Atlantis" from that period is one of my favorite records from the 80s. To my ear he crafted tunes that struck a rare balance between sophistication via the use of counterpoint and complex meter changes, and being tuneful and catchy in an almost "pop" way. Excellent sounding also and a real audiophile sleeper.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9z6-qehv4w

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3qXILIfPuw

Frogman, when you are alone in your "audiophile" listening room, playing an LP on your perfectly adjusted TT, with one of the best cartridges, basking in a holographic sound stage that makes your listening room seem like a space much larger than what it is, you are experiencing a "subjective reality".

The average person sitting in your same sweet spot might not experience anything. I never mention anything about my rig to a non audiophile (who's in the listening room on a purely experimental basis) and they just go on babbling while the music is playing, never do I mention anything about the rig.

"Subjective Reality" is what all audiophiles live everyday without even thinking about it.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, english is not my mothers tongue, that prevents me of a more complex explanations of my thoughts. Of course that music in time has a constant flow, and we can say that it has evolved, even more so if you have point of view from musicians stand point, like you do. But, imagine, if someone would look at society in general, in lets say late 50's,in some place where jazz was created, and than returned to the same place one decade later, I think one hardly could recognaise it. My points is that changes to music came with 'outer' factor,social and economic, which than impacted its protagonists on different ways and led them to create music that some express as their own artistic creative feeling, others maybe had the ability of craftmanship that allowed them to follow the 'fashion' of the moment. Maybe it is just my thoght, but 'older'jazz music seems to me to be more genuine, with clear thought and feeling behind it,
like it had less influence from 'outside' but came from 'within', more it was 'musicians thing', rather than later music, which seems 'corrupted' by fashion, music industry, faster way of life, and other numerous soc.and econ.things. Also, if I may add something to your conversation with Orpheus, you two are looking things from two very different points. I admire your education, and your ability to articulate your thoghts and feelings into words, but sometimes your understanding of craftmanship that stands behind music creation, it just might you prevent to enjoy some more simple pieces of music, that are not necessary 'fake'. In that sense, O-10
seems to rely more on emotional receptors.

Some music, Dizzy's session 1970

https://youtu.be/JjvbZEPmHdE