Beware of the cable claiming long burn in period.

@ geoffkait

I agree with you that some cables are only 50% at sale requiring lot of burn in time.

I also found some cable which are almost ready to go (90%), but even those cables improve more with burn in.

Purist Audio fluid cables begin opening up after about 200 hours, became acceptable near 300 hours and keep improving slightly after that I am not sure for how long, I don't have a high resolution system. After 300 hours or so wall current fluctuations affect sound more than new cables in my set up so I stop listening to them.
On the other hand, Tchernov Reference sounds quite good after maybe 50 hours but the end result is the same - 300 hours is a cut-off point.

Skhong78, I have the BC silver star as well, Out of the box it sounds good..it match my system..Your system is already revealing maybe? I noticed you are also comparing it to the two cables you have , that’s confusing at times Aniwolfe and I got both good result on the BC silver star....

@ jayctoy

Choice of cable is dependent on system and personal taste.

If your system is on the forgiving side, then you may be happy with Blackcat cable.

Mine is on the revealing side with plasma tweeters and SET tube amplifiers.

I could not tolerate the slight harshness of the cable.

Upper model of  Blackcat cable could be better.

But without auditioning it, I can not tell.


I had mentioned about Zenwave D4 cable in your thread about Doug's double IC method.

It is quiet good with nice clean details and overall balance.

Somehow  Zenwave D4 is also excellent as digital cable and I ordered 1.5m length at 700$.

Now my cable rolling is over.

I am not the person who keep changing audio components very often.

I will be happy with my system for next 3 or 5 years.

I may try some tube rolling but otherwise I will just enjoy music.

Skhong my system is very balance, a bit forgiving. Iam using blue jeans ic now, my silver BC is on my other system....

Don't cable burns in at the speed of light?

@rodman99999

It’s amazing how much exception you take simply to the obvious questions of how you would turn your conjecture in to a testable hypothesis.

Why does this cause you to run around in circles, and shift the burden to me as if I had to somehow disprove YOUR hypothesis??? I mean, do you think it works like this?  You float a hypothesis, and if SOMEONE ELSE doesn't prove it wrong....then you may as well be right and asking for evidence for your claim is just being mean?

You claimed burn-in was a settled question among manufacturers. Again....I dared ask for evidence and I get the X-Files response: "The Truth Is Out There."

Ok. Guess I’ll trust you on that, as you seem to have a good handle on these things.

I agree he does not have to prove anything TO YOU. Clearly no amount of blabber is going to change anyone's mind on anything about cables. All it can be is a pissing contest, generally into the wind... And then the contestants wonder why they end up smelling bad?  Some of it is kind of fun.. mainly to clarify one's own position. But to think it makes any difference? you are plain deluding yourself.Though for the popcorn crowd I am sure it makes for entertainment.

prof1,714 posts02-18-2019 4:32pmaniwolfe,

"It took over 300 hours to really sound great."

What do you think is happening within the cable over those 300 hours that would alter the sound?

>>>>Unbelievable.

Believable. 

No, what was unbelievable I thought, was someone who has been through these burn in discussions many times, asking “what’s causing the long burn in times?” since, you know, it’s all been covered ad nauseam. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking, “what’s been covered ad nauseam?” 😛

This just reminds me of the Morrow thread from a little while ago.

When the return period is shorter than the break-in period, you know there's a problem.

That was my thread. I tried to return a $600 (my cost, not Mike Morrow's fake cost) set of IC's that were in pristine condition 4 days late and Mike Morrow told me to F myself. That was after spending a lot of money on phono cables that I found satisfactory. Then when I went to sell my pristine but crappy IC's with some spoofing in my ad copy about Mike Morrow's film-flam advertising, I am 99% certain he hired a shill to buy the cables in order to put an end to my ad that made fun of him.  I was a fool for buying and a fool for selling. I've since graduated to far better phono cables (German-made Firewire) so maybe I will list the phono cables with the same spoof for $1000 to make it more expensive for MM to silence me from telling the truth. 

elizabeth,

It's not true that no one's mind is ever changed in discussions like these, including audiophile controversies like cables, tweaks, burn in etc.   There are plenty of audiophiles who have switched from whole-hearted belief in all sorts of subjective audiophile ideas, to skepticism.  And of course you will also hear testimonials like "I was skeptical...until I was influenced by reading people's reports on line to try and now I'm a believer."


Personally, my own beliefs have evolved over time, both through personal experience and very much by looking at the case made by people taking different sides of a debate.


Not everyone is as dogmatic as you seem to believe.

The ironic thing is that it's usually those quickest to yell DOGMATIST who don't recognize their own dogmatism.   It often goes like this:

Skeptic:  "All of us, me, you, are human beings prone to various types of errors in how we interpret our subjective experience.   This isn't simply a claim by fiat; it's based on tons of evidence from everyday life to all the biases documented scientifically.   So I could be wrong - in fact I've proven myself to be wrong in some cases using tests to uncover my bias.  Because every human suffers bias, it's reasonable for you to admit you could be wrong as well.  It makes sense therefore to take in to account we could be wrong and ask what methods will help us more reliably tell when we are in error."

Believing Audiophile:   "Speak for yourself!  My subjectivity and senses are reliable, so I know I'm not wrong about what I KNOW I HEAR!  And stop being so DOGMATIC!"

This just reminds me of the Morrow thread from a little while ago.

When the return period is shorter than the break-in period, you know there's a problem.

That was my thread. I tried to return a $600 (my cost, not Mike Morrow's fake cost) set of IC's that were in pristine condition 4 days late and Mike Morrow told me to F myself. That was after spending a lot of money on phono cables that I found satisfactory. Then when I went to sell my pristine but crappy IC's with some spoofing in my ad copy about Mike Morrow's film-flam advertising, I am 99% certain he hired a shill to buy the cables in order to put an end to my ad that made fun of him.  I was a fool for buying and a fool for selling. I've since graduated to far better phono cables (German-made Firewire) so maybe I will list the phono cables with the same spoof for $1000 to make it more expensive for MM to silence me from telling the truth. 

Wow. I did not realize the problem of a late return with him was such a bad experience. Folks definitely should be made aware of the problem. When I have a cable I did not like, the dealer was adamant I should give it more time.. but I returned it within the time frame. (problem was I had to use the money as a credit.. And bought junk I really did not need., but not a big deal.. I should have jumped and bought the cable I was too cheap to go for at the time. Took me two years to get up the guts to just buy what I really wanted. Kimber KS1116 7m for $3200.) The Kimber KS1116, for me anyway, is the cable for life...

Well written prof. +1

Well, cable for life might work if the life is short. You replace speakers, equipment and then might have to replace cables too. Some, however, are less equipment dependent than others but this doesn’t mean they are best in every case. Unless of course you build your system around your favorite cables which would be a highly unusual and novel approach. You might still end up with great set up, by the way.

@prof- AGAIN: Your initial question, to aniwolfe, " What do you think is happening within the cable over those 300 hours THAT WOULD ALTER THE SOUND?" That question presupposes that THE SOUND MIGHT BE ALTERED. Why would I have to establish whether it WAS or NOT? HELLO(is anybody in there)? That Dielectric Absorption and the attendant oriented polarization of dipoles are a reality, has been categorically established. Let me rephrase my question: Perhaps you can tell me, WHY that can’t be a cause(or, "plausible"), of a POSSIBLE SOUND ALTERATION in a cable, SCIENTIFICALLY(without your obfuscation)? One glaring bit of evidence, when judging whether another is, "dogmatic", is the refusal to even admit possibilities, when in disagreement with their dogma, regardless of how apposite those possibilities might be.

@rodman99999

Conversation will prove impossible if you refuse to try to understand what is being written instead of leaping to some caricature you have in your mind. If someone just doesn’t automatically believe what you believe or doesn’t simply accept your claims as verified....in your mind they are a dogmatist. That is about as dysfunctional a scenario for conversation as possible. Asking about the evidence for a claim, or how it could be tested, isn’t dogmatism. It’s the opposite: it’s trying to base beliefs on evidence, not simply on someone’s say-so.

So you trip over yourself with wild statements like:

One glaring bit of evidence, when judging whether another is, "dogmatic", is the refusal to even admit possibilities, when in disagreement with their dogma, regardless of how apposite those possibilities might be.

Again...I had said your hypothesis was INTERESTING. I did not discount it as impossible. And I repeated again:

I quite carefully did not claim your conjecture was wrong or implausible.

And yet instead of seeing this as a reasonable query about evidence and methods, in your mind you have this wild caricature that I have dogmatically "refused" to "even admit possibilities" like the one you raised.
Could you please make actual contact with what I’ve been writing, please?
It is very strange that when you simply float an interesting technical hypothesis - and it was interesting! - and someone asks about the evidence for it and how you’d go about testing it...that you leap to the OTHER person as being "dogmatic" and ’refusing’ to consider possibilities.

It seems to have gone unnoticed by you that even from my first post I admitted the possibility that the OP was hearing something objectively changing in the cables.   And I admitted your conjecture was interesting, and did not claim it to be wrong.   Yet I haven't seen YOU concede anything I've said as being possible - e.g. that it could also be due to perpetual bias etc.  Instead YOU have simply claimed I'm just wrong about this, any alternative possibilities are "in my head" only, it's all been established so you aren't even considering my point of view.And then YOU go about implying that I am the recalcitrant dogmatist?   Amazing.

"life is short".. Well I am old.. Plus I have used the same cables for 20 years in the past. So I have no difficulty seeing the seven meter Kimber KS1116 as the last one for that particular seven meter spot.Some folks do not swap cables every year. Or even five years or ten.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zAUAAOSwKphcVCPg/s-l500.jpg

Ed Sheeran - X

I received this CD from England today.

It sound marvelous with fresh vocal and wide soundstage.

Blackcat Silverstar Mk2 is still connected to Lyngdorf 2170 and it is easy to switch back and forth between Blackcat and Zenwave D4 through remote controller.

Blackcat emphasize sharp focus but it is slightly too hard sounding.

Through Zenwave, his voice sound organic and everything transparent with nice transient.

Zenwave D4 is much better digital cable in my system than Blackcat Silverstar Mk2 .

@prof- "It seems to have gone unnoticed by you that even from my first post I admitted the possibility that the OP was hearing something objectively changing in the cables. And I admitted your conjecture was interesting, and did not claim it to be wrong." OK! "Yet I haven’t seen YOU concede anything I’ve said as being possible - e.g. that it could also be due to perpetual bias etc." Conceded! Anything’s possible, regarding opinions/perceptions, given the spectrum of humanity this issue covers!

Elizabeth, you are in audiophile mid-age.
Clean your records properly, get the same model speaker cables, upgrade the power cords, and you will get a jump in sound quality.
Then you might consider getting better table/arm/cartridge/phono. Then maybe preamp and amps. A lot of work to do.

Thank you inna. That is the Classic Audiophile Mantra: ""SPEND MONEY"". Made me laugh.

@elizabeth 

You can enjoy music without spending more money,

I had been that way from 2013 to July 2018.

After hearing my friend's big horn Western Electric vintage system, I started upgrading my system.

It cost me almost 18k$ but the fortunate thing is that it is almost over.

Please do not repeat the same mistake.

Stay away from other peoples high end audio.

Thomas

Get off the upgrade train, folks. 🚂 It’s a train to nowhere. Necessity is the Mother of Invention. The cheaper you go the higher you fly. 

Geoff, aren't YOU the guy who told me go buy a $2300 powercord?

Yes, spend money, a lot of it.

Did I do that? 😳

This thread reminds me of the netflix movie entitled Behind The Curve about flat earthers and their reluctance to acknowledge the results of their own experiments designed to disprove that the earth is a sphere.

One question I would like answered is, if the earth is a disc, what's on the underside? My vinylophilic mind wants to know.

flat earth = spending more money on audio gear hoping for an improvement

Geoffkat
Nice reference.

I have some Morrow ICs that broke-in 87% over a couple of weeks and just stopped...then they resumed break-in on their own about 2 days later, like they were messing with my brain. After being away for a weekend they un broke-in about 8% and then became over broken-in (they sounded too good and made me feel bad for doubting them) and stayed that way for about 37 hours...I mean they sound great but still...now I can’t remember what they sounded like before so I have no idea where they wound up. Frustrating man...it's like I have to start all over...

Morrow is snake oil think. 

@rodman99999

Thank you.

As I said, I do find your hypothetical explanation interesting. I've heard something similar before to explain possible changes in cable performance.

I'm no expert on electrical theory to say the least, so I'll have to sit back and see if such an explanation ever gets vetted by people with the necessary knowledge and expertise.

Cheers!

With a 2K cartridge that has a life expectancy of about 2,000 hrs. buying a set of cables that takes 200 -  300+ hours to start sounding good seems like a bad deal to me......Jim

One poster wrote, " I had used Kimber PBJ for the 7 meter run, and back then, I never noticed any change but I was not looking for any". Interesting, that some people are looking for the change in sound. Perhaps if you were not  looking for a change you would not find it. 

If you keep your eyes shut tight, I am certain you will not see anything.. either.   But I do agree if you are not looking, you probably will not notice. What it seems tobor007 is trying to write is if folks in general did not expect changes, they would not notice them?? So stop looking and you will not find. (interesting advice)    
.            
I am the poster with a 7 meter Kimber PBJ,, (back around ?? 1990?) It was the first cable I used at all in such a long run. The main reason I did not hear 'any differences' is I had never had that setup before anyway, so nothing to compare, except to a short run where all the equipment was next to the speakers. (also PBJ IC) So in particular, I would say in hindsight, Kimber PBJ sounds the same whether a short run, or a long run.            
One cable that proved to NOT be the case was Cardas Parsec. Where a short Parsec XLR sounds great. but a long 7m run sounded thin and basically sucked. (I returned the 7m, and still use the 1 meter Parsec) I went for Kimber KS1116 mainy because it has triple wires, six instead of the 2 in the KS1111. better for a long run IMO. And yeah is turned out to be just right for that application.
Getting back to tobot007... I can see the idea... but it just is not gonna work out for most audiophiles. Maybe for a person who wants 'plug and play', easy to ignore any differences, say when they have to buy a new turntable cartridge. Since they don't care.

Good point. "If you keep your eyes shut tight, I am certain you will not see anything.. either." With your eyes still closed ask yourself, can I hear the difference?

Burn in is a myth. This is simply people getting used to the sound of something over time and enjoying it more.

Even if it’s a myth I’ll take it...as long as it works. A myth is as good as a mile.

Metaphors be with you. 

@twoleftears, Morrow offers 60 days. Even at 400 hours , that’s not hard to do . Besides , if you ever actually talked to Mike , he will work with people . I run tubes , and I requested 10 day ( 240 ) hour break in on my power cords and speaker cables . Also they seemed to break in faster than my Interconnects, especially the digital ones . But I can leave my Yiggy DAC , Oppo 105 , and CD transport powered up for days being non tubed . If that doesn’t work for you , I’ve had great results with comparably priced Kimber products . I’ll be venturing to Nordst soon to try some cables for my Audeeze cans . BTW , I apologize in advance if I come across to harsh . It’s all about the Fun Factor . Regards , Mike B. 

Digital cables have no burn in.  They either pass the signal as a 1 or 0 or they don’t. They have no burn in, no directionality, no nothing. Do you think they deliver a more powerful 1 or 0 after the burn in???   Asinine discussion 

7 hours a day, each and every day, without fail, for 60 days, is not my definition of "easy to do".  Besides, if a product is not performing properly at the moment of its sale, why are you selling it?  Purchasers should have 60 days to perform listening tests, swopping in and out cables, etc., not to sweat over bringing it to perfect ripeness.

dinasty11 posts02-22-2019 11:58amDigital cables have no burn in.  They either pass the signal as a 1 or 0 or they don’t. They have no burn in, no directionality, no nothing. Do you think they deliver a more powerful 1 or 0 after the burn in???   Asinine discussion

>>>>The signal transferred on digital cables isn’t 1s and 0s. Also, the signal is an electromagnetic wave just like analog cables, therefore subject to the same causes of noise and distortion as any other type of cable. This is why toslink is usually judged inferior to coax digital cable, counterintuitively. If it was ones and zeros all digital cables would sound the same, which they obviously don’t. Follow?

I have an expensive (bought it used so not so expensive for me) solid silver coax sp/dif cable from my CD player to my DAC. I think it sounds great and I also think my friends, when I show them that cable, should be more enthusiastic and appreciative of it. But no, they just don't seem to care and also seem to prefer I not yammer about this stuff.

wolf_garcia4,612 posts

02-22-2019 2:28pm

I have an expensive (bought it used so not so expensive for me) solid silver coax sp/dif cable from my CD player to my DAC

@ wolf_garcia

Does it have arrows, or some type of designation, for direction?
I have yet to run across a solid core center conductor coax digital cable that is not directional. Even manufactured digital S/PDIF cables where the manufacturer says his cable/s is not directional.
Especially a silver center conductor coaxial digital cable.

One direction will sound better than the other be it copper or silver.
Jim


.

Burn in has been scientifically disproved over and over again. Yet the "golden ears" crowd buying Nordost etc will be here playing ego games time and time again. This is all nonsense. Stop it.

It’s been disproved? Prove it! Talk’s cheap.