Could it be a variation of this:
Mass hysteria manifesting as collective symptoms of disease is sometimes referred to as mass psychogenic illness or epidemic hysteria. Mass hysteria typically begins when an individual becomes ill or hysterical during a period of stress.[6] After this initial individual shows symptoms, others begin to manifest similar symptoms.
Besides, peer pressure and wanting to belong to an elite group is a factor. Who wants to ADMIT he can't hear what EVERYONE else says they can hear? My system can resolve as well as yours!!! I have golden ears also!!! I am just as much an audiophile as anyone else!!! And so on and so on.
I own Belden 10awg.
Cheers |
Zd542,
I think you have me confused with someone else as pertains to wire. On this thread, I am just a messenger. All I posted, about cable, was from people a lot more knowledgeable than me. I just delivered the message. I didn't drink the Wire kool-aid, so I am not involved. Just trying to be helpful. HOWEVER, when some one says a cable is 'danceable', I have to speak. After all I am only human. There is only so much a human can take.
I am not a player is the wire debate. Blue Jeans is all need.
Cheers |
Jmcgrogan2:
I am flabbergasted!!! Did you read the two post I submitted? Both were copies of info I got online. Are you saying the authors of the info were nuts also? I thought my comments were inline with all the other posters. Chayro was critical, and he was given the benefit of the doubt. People even 'explained' that he using sarcasm. I had no idea I was making a spectacle of my self. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll try to be more of a team player in the future.
Cheers |
Acman3
Thanks for giving the chance to clarify my thoughts on wire.
The failure I alluded to in my previous post, refered to the reviewer at stereophile accepting the challenge to do the wire thingy, and then backing out. I do not know the details. I just postulated, that if he could not ID wire, how could he ever be a reviewer for a publication that believes in wire and in which he has many times tested, reviewed and sang the praises of many wire products. He would have lost his position / status in the audiophile community. You are right. The price of failure would have been high. And he didn't need perfection, just any rsult above guessing. The test is, can humans hear wire, not just one guru. Perfection was not required.
This challenge thing has been around for many years. It's nothing new. BUT, you cannot PROVE a negative. I cannot prove that I cannot hear wire. You can prove that you do hear wire. Therefore, the burden of proof in the wire debate is on those that say they CAN hear wire. And no one has proved it as of yet. No one is obligated to do so. But the fact reminds that no one has.
Back in the day, the definition of a perfect amp was, a straight piece of wire with gain. That means, the wire is just there to carry the signal. it adds nothing and takes away nothing. And if you could get gain, that is perfection! Of course no such amp exists. But that would be the 'perfect' amp. All you would have is a signal traveling thru wire and magically having an increase in amplitude. No noise / distortion. Nothing!
NOW, we don't need some guy with a challenge and a million bucks. We can all do this at home. Just have a person that lives with you, change or not change your wire everyday. It must be so you cannot SEE any difference. Both of you keep notes. Compare notes after a week, a month, a year or even a decade. Then you will KNOW if you can hear wire. You can even listen to the same CD/LP which should give you an advantage. To make it even fairer, use the best audiophile wire avaliable vs say, 10awg blue jeans. Take your time there is no rush. See how often you picked the correct wire, or could even tell when the wire had been changed!
This is getting sort of long, so to close.
Think about human hearing. Think about hearing at certain ages. Think about hearing these so-called differences while music is being played. Think that seldom does one say wire sounds better, just different. How does guru wire change your listening perception of your copy of Beethoven's 9th, as opposed to the non guru wire? Just think. Remember people cannot even ID different amps and cd players with all the components involved. How can they ID a simple piece of wire?
And lastly. How do the scam artists explain the reasons for all these benefits of their product? What do they do to the wire to make your soundstage wider? Change freq response?
Sorry I was so long winded. I could go on, but won't. Unless you have questions.
Cheers |
Well, I tried to be nice. My posts 'wreak' of facts! Listen, this is not about money. I can assure you I can afford anything I have ever seen on this site. I don't care how other people spend THEIR money. This is about Physics, science and human physiology. This is about common sense. This is about people spreading nonsense and trying to pass it off as truth.
I am always amazed how, when someone criticizes anything on this site, the assumption is, jealousy or envy. I envy no one. What a petty mind people like you have.
Most of the time I try to be provacative just to simulate discussion. Maybe you can talk for hours about the merits of the Thunderbolt Cyclone mark 6 speaker cable and the Black Widow Banshee mark 4 power cord. My eyes just glaze over. Post after post of sheer nonsense. Posted by people with absolutely no knowledge of electronics or sound wave theory, or Stereo equipment. Just 'audiophiles', As if they are a different species. Possessing SUPER SENSES. Let's not even mention music.
Now, you could say, so what? What business is it of mine. I would reply, it's just the way HUMANS are made. To resist and expose ignorance and cheaters. To respond in the face of balant untruths. It's as simple as that.
BTW, no one is required to read my posts.
It's interesting that no one responded to the points made in my posts. They just attacked me. I guess you own a few 'danceable' cables also. :)
Cheers |
Mt10425:
Thanks for your words of support. You just doubled the size of the 'posse'. High Noon comes to mind.
Cheers |
I still see FOUR (4) lights!!
Cheers |
Zd542:
No apology is required or expected. I love a good spirited discussion. I was not offended in any way. And all of my comments, at least the not so nice ones, were directed at Jmcgrogan2. But I am not mad at him either. I just like the give and take.
Wire? Lets just agree to disagree. I don't want to lose a good music member over this silly wire stuff. Thanks for the post. BTW, I think you and I are the ONLY people on this site to have actually apologized for things said in the heat of battle.
Cheers
Thank you for the kind words concerning music. I know at least three guys who would beg to disagree with that.:)
Cheers |
"Rok2id..what does your system consist of..?.."
Polk Lsi15 speakers
Sony XDR-1FHD HD Tuner
Marantz SA8001 SACD player
Marantz PM7200 Integrated Amp 95/155 wpc 8/4ohms
Blue Jeans 10awg speaker cable 6ft runs Overkill!
Monster ICs 4ft
Thanks for your interest. I think :)
I once asked a very knowledgeable member for advice and he, being a very nice guy, said he was 'not familiar' with my equipment. I still LOL everytime I think of that. Even right now!
Cheers |
"I'm sorry if I intimidated you in eany way sir"
I will assume you are not a native English speaker, and just say this, there is no way, you or any of your sidekicks, will ever INTIMIDATE me. That's down right laughable.
"I feel someone needed to tell you this about the system you are trying to hear cable differences with,you will not!"
Where did you, and several of the other posters get the idea I am 'trying' to hear wire? If I was, don't you thinkI would have wire that cost more than $39? I don't know your education level, and I certainly don't want to offend you sir, But my arguments are not based on the price of stereo equipment, or the rants of your cohorts. or the 'reviews' done by the scammers. If you have problems with my position, take it up with Sir Issac Newton or the guys at places like CalTech and MIT. They will be able to explain it to you better.
WOW! There are no zealots like the recently converted.
In this country you are what we call a Kool-Aid drinker.
Happy listening to you also. SIR!
And btw, if you spent $70,000(US) on mostly cables, you are a very respectful idiot!
Cheers |
Audiolabyrinth:
I misread about the cost of your cables. Now I understand, your cables cost over 35,000 dollars. Hell, that ain't so bad. I am sure you hear every dollar. So excuse my previous outbrust. But I do have a question about this statement:
"I can move up the componet food chain and not worry about changing cables ever!cheers!"
Audiolabyrinth my friend, it just don't work like that. If you change a component. you must change the cables, because these things are very carefully matched and any component change requires the wire to be changed. Go back to your book on 'How to be an Audiophile' and look up the chapetr on SYNERGY. Ever hear of it? You mix the wrong wire with the wrong component and you could suffer severe ear hemorrhage!
Your plan / theory sounds logical, but in the audiophile universe, homo sapiens logic does not apply.
Pay attention. You have a lot to learn about WIRE! :) It's not as simple as you seem to think. You can't just buy expensive good wire and then think you are fixed for life! I can, you can't. I have Blue Jeans 10awg, and that's all I will ever need. It's one of the advantages of having a cheap, one notch above YORX, non-audiophile stereo system. But you are running with the big boys. Those guys with golden ears and deep pockets. That's a different game!
Watch your back and your wallet!
Best wishes on your journey.
Cheers |
"All metals are different. They react differently though some may appear or are assumed to react in a similar manner, otherwise, why are they separated on the periodic table? Standards derived from one type of metal don't translate to every other metal out there."
Sophism Indeed!!! |
"It seems you have changed your position during the course of this thread to one of someone who was not involved to one of disrespect and name calling."
Read my posts, and all the responses to my posts, from the beginning of this thread, and then tell me I am the name caller. Tell me I started it.
Some of you people are so obvious and lacking in the ability to read, think, or follow a line of thought, it would take someone with the patience of Job not to call you names. But as someone said earlier, in the greater scheme of things, this ain't very important. And another thing, most of you do not even know what the question is. It's not about me or my system or you and your system. It's not even about stereo!
BTW, has anyone noticed that people have a tendency to get a lot more upset and vocal over hearing the truth, than they do over hearing untruths. Esp those that are true believers. Almost as if their beliefs cannot withstand a challenge. Jusr something I have observed in life. Its almost as if the truth is 'dangerous'.
Cheers |
"Rok, above you have some well thought-out comments and challenges to your stance"
Point them out. For the life of me I can't see them.
"Oh, hell! Man, you are out of your league"
and what league would that be?
"so I will do the generous thing and try, once again, to point out the error of your ways"
No one say you are not generous with your time and thoughts. I know I appreciate it. Send some that rain to Texas. We Need it.
Cheers |
The case against wire:
1)NO ONE has ever demostrated that they can hear wire
2)There is no measurable or scientific basis for hearing wire
3)The limits of human hearing
4)Golden ears have tried and failed with wire and amps
5)Given human greed and pride, there would not be a million dollar prize still on the table to the person who demonstrates he/ she can hear wire.
6)No one explains WHY wire should sound different, the periodic table theory notwithstanding.
The casr for wire:
I can hear a difference.
Cheers |
Irvrobinson:
You are absolutely correct in everything you said. I think I will take your advice and go watch 'Gunsmoke'.
Glad to see the Peter Aczel reference. He is a real hero in the field of audio.
Cheers
Thanks for the support. It gets lonely on this place. :) |
Irvrobinson:
Well said. I think I detected a little Aczelian influence.
Last night I reread his review of the Parasound A21 power amp. How refreshing to read a real review. I really miss his input. he was the last of a kind. The only thing between truth and the charlatans.
He quit his 'hip-boots' articles because he said the ENTIRE audio media industry was now corrupt, so there was no need to point of the voodoo priests, since they are all now selling snake oil.
Have you noticed that a lot of these people can't read. They call the words, but they cannot comprehend. Check out the 'Frogman's response to your post. How in God's name did he come to understand that you said all non-believers were techically astute. It's like talking to a wall. They just regurgitate what they have been told.
I have to read Peter every now and then just to cleanse my head of all the nonsensical claptrap you read here on this forum. The ignorance and gullibility is absolutely breathtaking.
When someone 'accused' me of trying to 'save' them, I knew it was time to move on.
Good luck to you.
Cheers |
"Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that you are nearly as firm nor passionate in your ideas about this stuff as what you present in print. "
And how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion? And what 'stuff' are you referring to?
Cheers |
To All:
I just dropped by to give a shout out to Irvrobinson. Frogman then addressed a post to me, and I answered. Thats just common courtesy. But I am finished with the so called 'debate' on wire. I have found that after things like this are over, I just feel bad.
I think the people of this entire site are some of the nicest people you will find anywhere. Smart, educated , well read and seem to have done well in life. A good bunch.
I was looking for an Academic debate, but we could not get away from stereo systems, money and personal opinions.
But, as Nonoise alluded, it ain't that important. I am PASSOINATE about MUSIC. That's it. The gear is just a means to an end. I wish we didn't need it. I would love to walk into my house and say, "COMPUTER! Beethoven's 5th". Just like on Star Trek. :) Maybe I'll see that before I go.
If I have offended anyone, it was not intentional. Just love to spar.
Now, I am finished with wire!!
Cheers. |
"Now, anybody that tells me that "Sassy" can't sing."
Now who could be clueless!!!
Cheers |
"What do I get if I can do it? "
All of my Ornette Coleman and Don Pullen CDs. :) |
Irvrobinson:
Once again you have fought the good fight. All points excellent, and right on point. But this will never end because, There is no incentive for the wire folks to submit to scientific examination. And I mean FINANCIAL incentive. Think about this:
If all the folks who buy, test, review, make and sell this stuff would prove that wire can be heard, this debate would be over before noon today. If they proved it could be heard, the wire business would increase 1000-fold. They would make more money than ever. Hell, I would buy wire!!
Then why don't they do this? well it's the other side of the coin that is holding things up. Failure! If they can't hear it, it's 1929 all over again in the wire business. The scammers would still be rich of course, I am sure the homes in aspen and miami are paid for by now. But, there would be a lot of unhappy campers out there is audio land. Imagine sitting before your system, looking at tens of thousands of dollars worth of, well, wire. Wire that could have been purchased for a few hundred at most. Wire that is now worthless, except for carrying audio signals.
I hope I live to see this fraud exposed. I want to HEAR and SEE what the gurus will say then. Will they be able to show their faces ever again. What will happen to the audio Mags? What a wonderful prospect! I think they will say the equivalent of 'Never Mind'(gildna), and then fade away to enjoy their ill gotten gains. Remember this is not the first or only scam in audio. You people have been had before! It's just the biggest and most lucrative. And it surely will not be the last!
Advice: If you now own very expensive guru wire, SELL IT NOW! No one will ever know. Because when the crash comes, and it will, you won't be left holding the bag. Like the worthless stock certificates of 1929.
Cheers |
This has nothing to do with stereo systems or ears or any of the rest of this audiophile mumbo jumbo. I am speaking of scientific research. No 'audiophiles' allowed!! Just men of medicine and science. They know how to do 'real' research to discover the truth. They can find out if humans can hear wire. Tell them the question, they will find the answer.
The problem is, this subject does not even show up on the radar of normal people. Why would anyone go thru the time, effort and expense to keep a few strange people from self-delusion. They are harmless. Sooo, I don't think we will see my proposal happen anytime soon.
If the scammers made any claims for their product,then they would subject to law suit. And then they would have to prove all this magic in open court. But, they don't make any claims,. the marks do that for them. It's the perfect scam! It also has to be the most profitable business this side of drug dealing, and without the deadly 'gone bad' thingy.
When the Lord was handing out gifts, he shouted BRAINS!, but the wire folks thought he said RAIN, and they ran for cover!
But, like I said, you are harmless, and it's your money. So who really cares. Just a way to pass time on the 'gon.
Cheers |
"That explains why the world is free of hunger and disease. Thanks to these wonderful, all-knowing men of medicine and science, no one has to fear cancer or any affliction anymore. LOL!!!
What a tool!!!"
Now, this post should tell any and every one, all they need to know about the intellectual level of the pro-wire crowd.
Nothing more need be said!
Cheers |
We don't need no stinking scientist (sierra madre), we got gurus!!
hahahahahahahahahaha
Cheers |
Again I am being misunderstood. I AM NOT saying scientist should take a piece of wire in a lab and analyze it, then say if humans can hear it.
I am saying this. How do we know what are 'normal' glucose levels in humans? Normal blood pressure? All of these 'norms' are based on studies involving thousands of people.
Now, I am saying, let Thousands of people undergo testing setup by compenent people. All over the country with standardized test. Audiophiles are welcome. of course they can't bring their own wire. that would like taking your own cards to vegas! All they need is for ONE person to demostrate he / she is able to hear wire. Once that ONE person is certified as being able to hear wire, this Debate is OVER!! Just ONE!! They will have proven, that at the least, some HUMANS, can hear wire.
People in science know how to do controlled tests. These will be people without an agenda.
If I had the wherewithal, it would have already been done.
Cheers |
Seriously, I would take the bet as you stated it. All that your results would have to be, is greater than guessing. One change. it should be between your wire and a cheapo wire. And your wire must be store bought without any sort of mod.
Practice! And kiss that 'Kind Of Blue' goodbye.
Cheers |
"I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards."
So True! They worry about the stuff that's 'easy' to 'upgrade'. |
What would we do without Nonoise and his rapier wit! One day he might even answer a question!
Cheers |
I, like some here, just like the banter. It's amusing to see how far a person will go to make an illogical argument.
However at the end of the day, the 10,000 pound gorilla stills sits in the middle of the room!
THE MILLION DOLLAR PRIZE!! Just demostrate you can hear wire! That is almost TOO easy. Hell, I wish I could hear wire. I'd be cruising in my 911 Turbo this minute. But I guess you wire folks just don't wanna take advantage of the poor misguided soul.
BTW, just curious. Can any of you Ferengi(stng) hear the differences between two brands of 'mere mortal' wire? Say, monster and blue jeans?
And also, why do you say 'different' instead of 'better.' Don't you buy wire to improve your sound?
Cheers |
I have Shorter and Nascimento (yauarete), but no Shorter with Nascimento. I had no idea I had so much latin stuff until you came along. eerrr.... thanks????
Let us pray that 'early' shorter is not anything like 'current' shorter!
The mere mortal cables I mentioned, I was asking can you ID them when they are compared to each other? Or does a guru cable have to be involved?
My stance on wire has not changed. I will argue up until folks start getting nasty, then I stop. It's possible have fun and be serious and speak the truth, all at the same time. However the million dollar thingy is very compelling. Human pride and greed being what it is.
I don't have 'native dancer' but I have Nana Vasconcelos doing 'Rain Dance'
I better get rid of this stuff before someone finds out, and labels me 'progressive' aaaaaiiiiiieeeeeeeee.
Cheers |
Anyone need a quick cool million? Better hurry before some guru beats you to it. Btw, this is not the only million dollars on the table. Others have offered the same thing. The oracle at stereophile raised his hand, but quickly backed off. I guess he pondered the consequences of failure. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Pear ANJOU Speaker Cables – $7,250
Pear Cable Corporation’s ANJOU Speaker Cable, a 12 foot length of which retails for $7,250, reportedly “allow new levels of sonic accuracy to be explored.” Supposedly, this exploration is accomplished by “proprietary hybrid geometry,” “ultra low electrical reactance” and “fully annealed 99.999% pure oxygen free Copper.”
In response to a glowing review by Dave Clark, editor of Positive Feedback, in which he refers to the cables as “very danceable”, the James Randi Educational Foundation offered a million-dollar prize to anyone who can prove beyond the shadow of doubt that these expensive speaker cables actually perform better (to the human ear, mind you) than Monster Cable’s $80 HDMI cables. While the prize is available to anyone who can prove the superiority of the ANJOU cables, the JREF unabashedly directs this challenge at Mr. Clark himself. In fact, the JREF apparently has MANY SUCH UNCLAIMED prizes for audiophiles who can PROVE that certain exotic piece of audio equipment are actually as exceptional as they claim.
“very danceable” hahahahhahahahhah REALLY!!!
Just the facts! Use them as you will. :)
Cheers |
