Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
miveraaudio I don't think anyone's posting about class D here to convert the luddites.Logical fallacy of the excluded middle. That someone is skeptical - or event resistant - to the idea of Class D doesn't make them a Luddite. |
Another client replaced these 3 NC1200 based amps with 3 of my 1200AS based amps: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159490.0 |
miveraaudio When you trash new technology that you haven't even tried that makes you a luddite.I think that trashing something one hasn't tried is silly, but it doesn't inherently make you a Luddite: Lud·dite
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Nobody should be on a mission to convert anyone to anything here. We shouldn't be attacking people for enjoying some amps more than others. There wouldn't be thousands of amps on the market for consumers to choose from and enjoy if there was only one correct choice or genre, and anyone who doesn't "get it" simply needs to be converted. Please...just let us share what we like knowing it's ok to like what we like! |
ricevs"Wherever
Mike goes is a fight. He has been kicked off several forums and made a
mess on his forum on Audiocircle. He states things so righteously that
anyone with a differing opinion wants to fight him back. A lot of
threads where he participates get deleted....including most of his
threads on his now gone Audiocircle forum circle...There is
half truth in what he says" Ricevs I am grateful, thankfull, and indebted to you for sharing this informations to the community here on Audiogon which is the only English language audio site on which I post so I would not have known this about "Mike" had you not alerted us even though it is becoming increasingly obvious, apparent, and evident that he is a religious proselytizer who uses name calling, insult, and derision to advance his Holy Cause of which he is a prophet, a visionary, and an oracle. I think we have all witnessed this hear previously on Audiogon and newcomers such as "Mike" usually do not last long because the moderators manage, intervene, and act accordingly as needed, required, or necessary. |
“Another client replaced these 3 NC1200 based amps with 3 of my 1200AS based amps:” @miveraaudio, You’re not even selling 1200AS based amps....so why you are continue to promote or post. As a manufacturer/designer, it makes no sense promoting something that you can’t even furnish for any one of us to audition. |
three_easy_payments Nobody should be on a mission to convert anyone to anything here. We shouldn't be attacking people for enjoying some amps more than others.I agree, and would add only that it's unfortunate that some need to be reminded of this. Beware the audio guru. |
@ three easy payment. Well you’re on a class D thread. So expect class D amps to be the subject matter discussed. If you aren’t interested in the subject matter on this thread, it’s probably best to stick to threads that interest you. Nobody's trying to convert anyone. We are simply discussing today's class D technology for those who are interested. |
I fail to see how a thread topic like this advances the hobby. Audio is a subjective pursuit and consensus is fleeting at best. Yes, measurements are meaningful and quite useful but it's the ears that ultimately separate the wheat from the chaff. Personally, I use classes A, A/B, and D in my various systems. I also use tubes. System synergy is where it's at. |
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Class D has now matured.Its obvious that this statement is false. '2018 amps are so last week; only 2019 amps can be considered.' is the message I'm seeing here. I can point out the exact post if needed. We have a patent pending on how to eliminate the need for dead time in class D amplifiers. Now if a little guy like us, previously unknown for even a solid state product, can make an important contribution like that (dead time is one of the major sources of distortion in a class D amp) then its pretty clear that class D is not a mature technology. Innovation S-curves start with lots of time and money poured into the tech with little to show for it; as it gets sorted out the tech improves dramatically with far less time and money invested. When the tech is mature large amounts of time and money are needed to incrementally advance the technology. So its very obvious that class D is not matured. Class D isn't there yet, but its obvious that if the designers can get their collective heads around what is important to the human ear and what is not, then we will see something that really is an improvement and by that I mean something that may well be better than tubes. |
Icepower put millions of $ and 13 years into their new Iceedge class D ASIC’s. With a team of the best of the best engineers in the business. So unless you have experience with this technology, you are not in a position to judge whether or not today’s class D is mature. It takes a lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as B&O, with that many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know what they’re doing. Iceedge technology is not a 1-2 year leap for class D. It’s a 13 year leap. the last time we seen a leap this large was way back in 2011 with Ncore. And most here don’t even have experience with the best of that yet. |
miveraaudio ... unless you have experience with this technology, you are not in a position to judge whether or not today’s class D is mature.As Ralph noted, he does have experience in this technology. Regardless, everyone here is free to express his opinion. It takes a lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as B&O, with that many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know what they’re doing.It takes more than a bit of arrogance to state this when no one here has made that claim. |
Icepower put millions of $ and 13 years into their new Iceedge class D ASIC’s. With a team of the best of the best engineers in the business. So unless you have experience with this technology, you are not in a position to judge whether or not today’s class D is mature. It takes a lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as B&O, with that many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know what they’re doing.That's pretty funny! ... uh... I never stated B&O doesn't know what they are doing. Didn't mention anything about B&O. Now, think about this for a moment. I filed for a patent in the area of class D technology. The patent is based on a functioning amp. Now since that is the case, is it thus possible that I in fact do 'have experience with this technology'?? I went to engineering school and while I make tube amps, when I went to school tubes got exactly one day of mention... this isn't that hard to sort out. Engineering FWIW is all about applying the math and the principles to solve a problem. The question often becomes 'are you solving the right problem?' Personally I'm of the opinion that quite often for many designers the correct answer is actually 'no' and the reason being that if you want an amplifier to sound right to the human ear, it has to be very short on the distortions that the ear is designed to pick up on. IOW, an understanding of how the human hearing perceptual rules work, rather than how to get the specs to look good on paper. The two are different and have been for many decades. |
Well if you come out with better class D technology than Icepower was able to achieve over a 13 year span then great. I can’t wait to hear it. But to say that today’s class D isn’t mature, without any experience with today’s class D, doesn’t hold much weight. Especially for me since I do have experience with today’s class D. You don’t have any idea about the level of research Icepower put into human hearing when engineering the Iceedge ASIC’s. I can tell you that they put much more into it than Hypex did with Ncore. Because out of the box buffer-less it sounds sensational. Where with Ncore amps you must add color with a fancy input buffer or else they sound dry and sterile. |
I’ll also note that currently the only turnkey Iceedge based amplifier module is the 1200AS. However the ASIC’s are available for OEM’s to incorporate into their own designs: https://icepower.dk/products/audio-ics/iceedge/#comparison-chart And there’s potential to make an amp out of these chips far better than the 1200AS, which is built to a price point. Give it a couple of years are we are going to see these chips in everything. Icepower has delayed the release of the 500AS because they are so busy working with OEM’s who are incorporating Iceedge chips into their own designs. |
My class D sounds incredible to my ears and cost me 2k,I'm glad that works for you! High end audio should be fun and musically satisfying. But high end audio though is not about cost, its about getting the music to sound real, IOW intention. I find that on these forums, audiophiles often use the same words to describe what they hear, but there isn't any standard to allow them to express the degree of their experience. So its all relative. Because high end audio is about intention, the idea of a 'reference' amplifier strikes me as a bit odd. Shouldn't all the amps one makes be capable of 'reference' performance? But to say that today’s class D isn’t mature, without any experience with today’s class D, doesn’t hold much weight. Especially for me since I do have experience with today’s class D.To imply that I don't have any experience with class D doesn't hold much weight either, does it :) I'm pretty sure you've not met me. You've not been to our shop, not been to my house... pretty bold, don't you think, to make an assumption like that?? |
@helomech you are spreading false statements base on ur feeling not facts! The Devialet as I remember is not a pure class D and has their own designFalse statements? Sorry, the Devialets are in fact class D. Their integrateds have a class A preamp section that attempts to smooth over the typical class D sound, though based on my auditions, MY OPINION, is that it wasn't successful. |
I’m sure my post will get deleted again by admins but I really think statements like this fall under the category of marketing for personal gain. Am I the only one who sees what’s going on here???Yup, don't accuse anyone of marketing, especially any of the insider members, regardless of their obvious, blatant tactics, your post will be deleted. |
When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers.This just proves you have no experience with a half-way decent tube amp. Maybe instead of postulating nonsense here, your time would be better spent gaining real experience with designs other than class D or Icepower. |
@atmasphere You have no idea how real music sounds with Iceedge based amplifiers. As technology advances, costs go down. This how technology works. Things get more efficient, quality gets better, and costs go down. How much did the first Apple computer cost back in the 70's? How much does it it cost for 1000x better performance today? a $40 Raspberry Pi has far more power. If you have so much experience with class D then the proof will be in the pudding. But it better be good, and based on ASIC's if you want to compete in today's market. We haven't even seen what ESS is coming out with yet. This will be the next big contender. |
Mivera says: "When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers. I guess I’m just more into the sound of music than the sound of electronics. a lot of musicians who have been around loud sounds for decades can’t hear good enough to pick up on that. Too much hearing damage." This statement simply says this guy has never heard a great tube amp, which is likely baloney intended to help him make his case. Buzzing sounds? Man...also, as a successful decades long musician and live concert mixer (working this weekend...everybody is welcome to come by the show, although for privacy reasons I refuse to say where it is) I likely fall into the "hearing damage" category, but it seems my hearing is just fine...amazingly...Although I don't claim to have "golden ears" I have noticed a somewhat dry and unappealing overall sound produced by the various class D home audio amps I’ve heard, and that’s not to say they could, and likely will, improve. The reason musicians often prefer tubes isn’t due to hearing loss, it’s due to exposure to music and the desire to hear it reproduced with the timbre and overall tonality that simply sounds right to them as, after all, musicians have a unique perspective. |
You have no idea how real music sounds with Iceedge based amplifiers.LOL this too is really funny. Are you saying that music doesn't sound the same through Iceedge products?? Don't let ICEpower hear you saying that :) Overall any amplifier should be neutral and Iceedge is no exception. FWIW I have recordings I made myself on both CD and LP. I was there so I know how the recording is supposed to sound. I have the masters. I don't care how **any** amplifier **sounds**; but I care a lot about how those *recordings* sound when I play them on a system. Most class D amps fall well short of the mark but many tube amps don't. There are a few class D amps that do rather well though (as there are also some traditional solid state amps, in particular some of the SIT amps by Nelson Pass). A *real* reference is a nice thing to have. |
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