Class D = Trash?
approximately 1500 hours break-in for Class-D. Wishful thinking, more like breaking the owner down, more like it making him submit. At 2hrs listening every day of the week, that's close to 2 years before break-in, that's just ludicrous, and you would have rocks in your head to leave any poweramp on while nobody's at home. Cheers George |
I’m not sure if this is clear, but amps are subject to any thing in front of them. Buying an integrated w/ DAC and judging all Class D amps based on that is not going to give you a very good base upon which to judge. Also, B&O have gone through three major generations, the latest full amp modules are the AS/ASP. There is also now a chip only version, which allows manufacturers to buy the theory, without the rest of the parts. God only knows what each maker will do with that, so it is completely unfair to use this as a basis to judge ICEPower in general as well. The credible comparisons I have read between ICEPower AS/ASP vs. nCore put them pretty close. I think bigger differences, like in purely linear amps, will be found with amp-killer speakers. "Normal" amplifier friendly speakers may not care very much. From my listening, I put the ICEPower AS/ASP modules as good as the Parasound A21/A23 series. Both are very modern, clean, open and quiet, and grainless. Based on this, I debunk the idea that class D is in any way inferior to linear amps. Now, if you want to argue your particular tube amp sounds better than that, well go ahead, but it won’t be due to digital vs. analog. Best, E |
Wake up Call to all those firmly asleep: Class D has and will continue to have a great future in Audiophile systems. The key is Sigma-Delta processing. Without it, yes these are harsh and mostly useless products. With it, it all comes together. Do your research on-line and in home and you will recognize this technology and understand. If not, take more Valium. Vincent Raptor |
@ retrofunk I have not heard the Thors yet, but I have tested at length the Merrill Audio Veritas and Teranis... My friend Merril makes wonderful amplifiers indeed, so I am not at all surprised that you are enchanted by the Thors. With 500 hours, your Thors will sound great, but they might continue to bloom further for as many more hours... Feed them some white noise or FM interstation hash at lowish volume whenever you are not listening to them, including night time... That will maximize the break-in speed. G.
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@ jonasandezekiel If the amps are a recent purchase, they may not be properly broken in. Give them some 1000 hours of break-in... They should have sweetened considerably, and the bass should be rendered OK. However, until now, W4S has not been one of the Class D brands with a house sound that has delighted me at RMAF. G. |
I have had a number of Amps; SS, Tube, Class D. 3 years ago I replaced my Cary V12R (Tube), with a Bel Canto, then I (in my opinion) upgraded to a Spectron Musician III with the remote sense cables (I will be listing this next week), I recently upgraded again to the Merrill Audio Thor Monoblock's. For reference my pre-amp is a Vac Signature Mkiia with Phono Stage, I have various turntables, a Bluesound Vault and the Speakers are Dynaudio C1's. IMO the Thor Monoblock's are without doubt the best Amps I ever owned and frankly one of the best I have heard. In my set up, having a quality pre-amp helps, the Dynaudio's love power - the bass comes alive. I am not an audiophile, do not have 'golden ears etc so I cannot talk about 'Blackness', "Presence', 'Soundstage' etc....all I can tell you is that I have asked friends to pick their favourite track, then sat them in the best position to listen and walked out the room. I come back in and they are speechless, one even cried ...but i expect the wine had something to do with that! To the original question, Merrill recommends 500 plus hours of burn in. I'm 49 years old, I am sure the frequency spectrum I hear is not the same as when I was 19...but for me... I am hearing the best reproduction of music I have ever heard in my life. Again, just my opinion, and we all have one !!! LOL |
Here is what a well known quality speaker manufacture believes with what they put into their own active monitors. JM Labs Focal Speakers. " The amplifiers are conventional Class A/B designs rather than the increasingly common Class D option, because Focal thinks the traditional technology gives a better sound." Cheers George |
NuPrime changes everything.... Amps = NuPrime ST-10 NuPrime STA-9... NuPrime STA 6. They have also a great line of integrated amps. These have a sweetness to them that most other class D’s can not touch. http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/index.php/products/amplifiers-and-preamps/integrated-amps.html http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/index.php/products/amplifiers-and-preamps.html |
Interesting read this thread has been! Just thinking out-loud.... I bought my Marantz PM-11s3 a year ago and listened to many class D amps including NAD, Devialet and others in its price range and to me there was no comparison! The PM-11s3 was a much better listen in every way. Now what scares me is that the new Marantz PM-10 is Class D. And it's priced at $9000, a full $4000 more than the PM-11s3!!! I really hope they got it right and it’s a major jump forward for the Class D technology without these long break-ins and loss of performance or they are headed for a major black eye! That would be a terrible let down considering how good their Reference Series has been... |
I just recently tried out, and returned an NAD M22 amp. My 20 yr old Bryston 4B-ST was misbehaving, so i sent it to them for their restoration service (replacing ALL the electrolytics!). I thought it was maybe time to update to a new amp, and I've always loved NAD gear. Well I thought the M22 was dismal..... simply unlistenable to me. Now, I own (5) class A/B amplifiers that range from $800-5000, and all 120 to 300 w/ch.... And i can tell each one of them apart. They all perform well, and have their own personality. So don't tell me i don't know what amplifiers sound like. The M22 was truly unlistenable to me. I'll admit that woofer control, and dynamic power was truly amazing, but the sound was so harsh and congested, and lacked any depth. The imaging was very weird too..... like the center was sucked out in the mid frequencies. There was no solid center image. I'd never heard an amp like it. |
I'm impressed with my Audio Alchemy DPA1 Stereo amp, A/D. It's very musical, it has great presence, palpability, heft and body. I've owned McIntosh, Rotel, NAD, Hegel and my other amp is an ARC tube amp. I would say the Audio Alchemy beats the Hegel H360 I owned, so it really is very good. The entire frequency range is fully present, no complaints. |
Does anybody realize most 'class d' amps are simply another type of single-ended amp? Investigate it - the output is actually developed across 2 passive components - not that far away from how an OPT develops power output across its secondary. There are physical analogies within the details, but the overall system functions the same: the sound is 'built' across a passive element. That means both amp typologies are quite susceptible to reactive output impedance of the load. The SE 845 certainly is, so are most 2 quadrant switching amps as they can't effectively sink current. This is required to effectively manage real world speakers. If a class D was well designed with full 4 quadrant operation, this would be a different column. Also, class 'D' amps are subject to power supply/cable/drive issues just as SE amps. Proper execution of the stable implementation is absolutely critical, as Bruno has shown us to this point.....but we yet have a way to go. |
Not for nothing but why do you care if the Amp is an inefficient Class A design versus a Super Efficient Class D. You listen with your ears and not with feedback used to generate gain. Blanket ideas is what allows the marketing gurus to convince people that brown bag of dog poop is the best thing their is. If you have free clean electricity and need heat of course get the Class A by all means. |
I am using a 4 channel amp from ClassD Audio. I am super happy with the amp. I purchased the CDA-1000 which is essentially the CDA 250-L x 2. I purchased the kit and assembled myself. I will be adding 2 more channels to power a multi-channel active crossover system designed by Siegfried Linkwitz (LXmini + add-on subs). Tom, the owner is great to work with and incredibly helpful. The idea that class d amps are inferior to class A/B/C/Z is hogwash..... typical audiophile BS. |
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I have owned many amps, but currently have a bel canto ref 500 (class d) powering a pair of monitor audio pl200 speakers. I needed enough power to get the ribbon tweeters to liven up. Tried a Bryston and couldn't listen for more than 5 minutes - way too harsh. With the bel canto, and a ps audio ac-12 power cable, I get the low end of the bryston without the aggression of the bryston's treble. After the amp/speaker match, everything else fell into place for me. I feel this amp/speaker match is critical to the entire system - and likey less a matter of amp design than component matching. |
Aberyclark... Hmmmm.... Really?! George, funny thing that, trusting my own ears, I really can't hear any artifacts in my gear... SMPS switching at 450 Khz or so. Real heavenly actually. But I admit that some amps switching at similar frequencies are the ones that should be marketed only as varmint chasers *Grins!* G. |
seanheis196 posts04-01-2017 9:36am Very interesting point about switching frequencies… What is the acceptable switching friequency range is targeted by the pundits? Below is a quote from George from the Class D technology thread. The day will come when Class D will compete and very well be better than any linear amps tube,s/s, class A, AB or whatever, BUT!! Yes it actually, the filter that’s needed to rid that switching frequency and all it’s artifacts that does the damage also to the audio band at the moment. ( switching frequency artifacts left over are the buzz-saw ringing that one sees on test 1khz square waves) http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/805CIAfig2.jpg (And the filter also causes phase shifts in the 5khz to 20khz of the audio band) If the switching frequency were higher, then the filter can do it’s job without effecting the audio band, and get rid of all ringing that’s left over on those square wave tests. So I wait in hope for technology to advance so the switching frequency can be up around 5mhz. Technics in the above link have got it up, with special transistors to 3hmz they are showing the way, but that amp costs $20-30K and is special order only. Cheers George |
Guido, is there any scientific explanation behind these Class D break in numbers? I can see speakers maybe needing a bit of time to break in....but transistors???
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Very interesting point about switching frequencies… What is the acceptable switching friequency range is targeted by the pundits?Below is a quote from George from the Class D technology thread. The day will come when Class D will compete and very well be better than any linear amps tube,s/s, class A, AB or whatever, BUT!! Class D needs much higher switching frequency (needs to be at least 5 x higher) technology isn't there yet but in the future it will come, only then will ClassD become a contender. Till then good for budget hifi and subwoofer/bass amps. Technics has progress the Class D race and developed 2 x the present switching frequency with their own made components, in this amp but it’s very expensive $20-30k https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1334662?highlight=Technics When the switching frequency is 3mhz or better, then it can be called hi-end, and will own it myself, then my linear heavy boat anchors will be sold or become door stops. Cheers George |
Everyone in audio has a different opinion on what sounds good and what does not. There are many factors that influence your opinion on equipment and its associated technology. Understanding the technology is interesting but, for me, how a piece of equipment sounds in MY system is more important. After some discussion, my friend loaned me his James Romeyn "Class D" mono block power amplifier and I liked them very much. They sounded much better than my Luxman 590ax Class A integrated amplifier (solid state). The music was more open, detailed with much improved bass. I was very surprised and could not believe it. And, yes, I was hearing sounds that I have not heard before. I consulted with James and decided to buy his Hypex NCore NC400 dual mono block class D power amplifiers ($2,980) with 2 NC400 amplifiers per side with the NC1200 power supply. He highly recommended his Class D dual mono version for improved sound quality and power. The amplifiers finally arrived and they were a huge step above his mono block power amplifiers. The sound quality from my Hypex NCore NC400 Class D duel mono block power amplifiers is amazing. Burn in time was about 3 weeks but they sounded very good out of the box. However, as I was instructed. I made no judgement until after the 3 weeks. My sound system sounds much improved over my Luxman 590ax Class A integrated amplifier. I mentioned this before in previous posts but we removed the R141 chip from the 4 NC400 amps that allow increased volume setting from my Bricasti M1 SE DAC. My DAC is going direct to my Hypex NCore NC400 mono block power amplifiers and I am not using a pre-amplifier. I am using the James Romeyn Pure Balanced POWer Fully Balanced Interconnect cable with Cardas Rhodium XLR Connectors. The Rhodium connectors took several weeks to burn in and sounded horrible out of the box. I am hearing details, imaging and bass that I have not heard before. My system now offers breath taking detail, transparency, lack of noise, and excellent dynamics that I did not hear with the Luxman 590ax Class A integrated amplifier. I purchased the Hypex NCore Class D amps from James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC (James). He was very helpful answering my many questions and I suggest you contact him for more information on his assembled Hypex NCore Class A amplifiers (he offers 3 models). Please see this link: http://jamesromeyn.com/product/hypex-professional-build-service/#tab-description |
Madavid0 - Have you considered the possibility that A) you have very neutral and revealing speakers plus B) a highly detailed and resolving amp could mean that C) perhaps you're just now able to hear the quality of the source recordings that you haven't before? I remember when I first setup my highly revealing and resolving system how many recordings I used to enjoy sounded poor (accurate) and how many I had previously dismissed sounded great (accurate). Give your ears time to burn in as well. Greg |
Very interesting point about switching frequencies… What is the acceptable switching friequency range is targeted by the pundits?
Given that break-in of a class D power amp ranges from 600 hours to approximately 1500, asking a manufacturer to exercise the device for upwards of a couple of months before shipping it to a dealer may be woefully unrealistic… Of course, everything is possible…. For a commensurate list price uplift.
G. |
The Teac I mentioned that supposedly used an ICE module was virtually un-listenable. I will admit that I only burned it in for a few weeks, perhaps not enough for a class D. This D-Sonic uses a modern Pascal module for which I read has technical wizardry that goes way over my head in order to reduce switching noise even further than previously accomplished. When it doesn't sound like trash, I do appreciate the extra resolution and cohesion in the face of difficult passages. I guess I'll just have to be patient. But, damn, this is the first time I've experienced fluctuating quality during burn-in. I'm very used to burn-in, but there's always a linear progression from "horrid" to "good". |
Kvetching does not equal documentation. The latest generation of ICEPower (AS or ASP) are wonderful, and to my ears indistinguishable from good A/AB amps. Any attempt to use them as examples of Class D inferiority is highly suspect to me, based on experience. I'd be happy to evaluate vs. nCore or Pascal when some one provides me the funds... :) Best, E |
Again, one experience with ICE modules cannot possibly speak for all Class D amps, just the one amp you heard. Goodness folks. I heard a poor tube dac once so they all must have a ways to go.....crazy thought process correct?These issues with amps that use Ice modules are well documented on this forum. Amps using NCore, Pascal, and Abletec are generally viewed as favorable. NCore is often times described as similar to Ice, but improved. Plenty of folks don't care for NCore though...None of these Class D amps are as universally agreed upon compared to Class AB offerings from McIntosh or Mark Levinson. |
I can definitely detect that element of...whatever it is. Dryness? Poor blending of upper- mids into highs? Lack of weight? There's a SOMETHING to the sound that hints to listener fatigue.I experienced the same with Ice Power amps. Dry, cold, clinical...lacking depth and instruments not decaying properly. I purchased the amp used so it wasn't a break in issue...I started a thread about it and it appears that the switching frequencies aren't currently high enough to avoid degrading the signal. If it was a simple break in issue, they would be broken in at the factory. Don't give up on Class D though. When the switching frequencies improve, they will become the solid state amps of choice. Some folks don't hear what we hear and they are fortunate to enjoy these small and efficient power houses. More power to them. |
Hello madavid0, please let me be the first to extend to you a warm welcome to the wonderful world of class D breakin Purgatory! For the next few weeks you shall be our guest... Though shall be regaled by the experience of gnashing of teeth, extreme audiophrenic anxieties, buyer's remorse, snarky comments from wife and friends, plunging self-worth, desperation, upset stomach, gastritis, duodenal ulcerations, persistent tremors, and occasional night terrors. Please do not despair... Know that there is light at the end of this grizly tunnel.... Sorry, we know you can't see it yet... 'Tis around an untold series of nasty bends, dips, collapsing sound stages, intermodulative shrieks, tubby corners, and halls filled with revolting audio mud. Please find in the left pocket of your seat a 500 count jar of 250 mg generic Valium fast-acting jell caps, a miner's helmet, and a silicon audiophile-approved teeth guard... Please use the teeth guard during rest periods to prevent teeth from shattering from the inevitable gnashing. Always wear the helmet to prevent head injury when hitting the roof during inevitable fits of audiophrenic rage.... And use Valium as needed to reduce anxiety to a bearable level. Please enjoy your ride!!! Signed: Your devoted Class D Break-in Purgatory Administrator (CDBPA)
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madavid0, what your amp does now is most likely a break-in artifact... Discount it for the next two weeks or so. If the behavior persists towards the end of the 3rd week, try switching the left/right inputs of the amp around. If the problem changes channel, there is something amiss in the electronic or wire chain. G. |
In my quest for continuing minimalism, I bought a PS Audio Sprout. I love it. It drives my Spatial Audio M1 Turbos effortlessly, with plenty of good noise in a large room. The inboard DAC is way good enough for my Theta Pearl, I stream Bluetooth from my computer, and hooked up an MP3 player for background music and NPR. All is well. My 20-year-old Krell KAV-250 integrated sits unused. Head to head, l'il Sproutie just sounded more...fun! It's all that this old fart requires for enjoyment. Now, maybe, an upgrade to M4 Turbos. I like the white. |
