@harrylavo Dynavector made several versions of KARAT Ruby, the better version have "MicroReach" stylus profile, the older version has just an Elliptical stylus.
Same about Karat Diamond, the better versions are all have MicroReach and MicroRidge diamonds.
I think this is a huge advantage over the old versions, because the life-span of Elliptical stylus is too short, but the MicroReach (MicroRidge) can be used for 1500-2000 hrs max. |
Dynavector Ruby was the best cartridge I owned until the Accuphase AC-2. Superbly natural .... find one in good shape today and you have a keeper. |
|
I too found the LP12/Ittok 'mediocre'. But I tried the Ittok on other tables (including Oracle Delphi II) and it excelled. The LP12 was the weak partner IMO. I still use an Ittok 25 years later for certain MCs.
|
Just received the Dynavector DV-20X2 Low Output and I am thrilled with it. Does anyone know what the Hours are for Break In? |
Your Linn combo is a mediocre performer, no more no less. You would be amazed when hearing a true quality turntable/tonearm and you Karats will start to shine. For a belt drive deck I warmly recommend a vintage ORACLE DELPHI MK III at most with original GROOVE ISOLATOR "sorbothane" like mat (but not sticky like sorbothane), don´t waste your time with hard acrylic mat and stiffer suspended models starting from MK IV they sound worse (dull). I have had four different Delphis over the decades and know what are the best sounding ones. Good luck, whatever you may search for. Because you really need just that. More information about GROOVE ISOLATOR here: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-oracle-groove-isolator-the-original-special-compound-ru... |
I am a big Fan of Dynavector cartridges. I have owned my Linn LP12 /Ittok for close to 30 years. For several years I used the 10X4 models, but then when I bought a used Aro tonearm it came with a Karat (was it a Karat 19A mk II? I don't remember...) mounted on it. At first I thought the cartridge was just junk - the stylus was so tiny I couldn't see it - but I took it to work and looked at it under a microscope and was shocked to see the stylus there, looking fine. I mounted it and played it through a Linn Linto phono stage and that was it. I was hooked. This cartridge was eventually replaced with a 17D2 - I think I went through two of those - and now I'm using a 17D3. Still through the Linto, which has now been serviced. I have great respect for the Dynavectors and think they are excellent. However, I've never tried other cartridges and there are so many out there. I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to switch brands.
For those of you who have previously enjoyed a 17D2 or 17D3 and moved on, I'm interested to hear what you've moved on to and how you think it compares. In many ways this hobby is difficult, because it's hard to imagine something better than what we have until you hear it... That's kind of where I am at. I know there is better stuff out there, but I'm pretty satisfied with the sound of my system. |
Upgraded to DV KARAT 17D2 mkII recently, another Dynavector in collection. Any users of this beast ? review on enjoythemusic |
Very interesting, we hardly can wait. The ART7 has very low output, 0.12 mV exactly the same as the Highphonic MC-R5 that I will compare to ART9 in near future after some break-in time... |
It’s 6 months later. I am really really really going to mount my 17D3 in my new Yamamoto CF headshell and then install it on the same DV505 tonearm that now bears the ART7, TODAY. Honest.
After some break in time, I’ll report here on the comparison.
|
This thread made me curious to try one of the Dynavectors and I managed to pick up a Karat 23RS in 'as new' condition for 300 euros. Judging by its visual condition I seriously doubt it has ever been used, so it may need some playing time to settle. But actually it's one of those cartridges that sounds great straight out of the box. First impressions suggest it's very open, dynamic and 'alive', with unusually strong bass performance. The highs were a bit edgy in the first few hours, but this trait is already melting away.
So here's another great 'vintage' cartridge that in direct comparison could embarras some of those overpriced MC's in today's inflated market place. Recommended!
|
AT-ART9 needs at least 150 maybe 200 hours to really sing. Mine has just reached 190 hours (285 LP play) and sounds wonderful and nicely balanced w/ very deep soundstage at 1.8 g VTF and 100 Ohms, very slightly raised pivot. Has become my reference MC. The new 17DX is very tempting I admit. |
I was running the Dynavector 17D3 on my new Technics 1200G and it sounded great, but I recently bought a AT Art 9 which to me sounds better on the 1200G with overall beter tone from top to bottom but less wide sound stage from the 17D3 but the Art 9 has only 50 hours on it still need more time. But when you put the Dyna 17D3 on my Rega RP8 is really sounds amazing huge sound stage through out. Probably going to put on here soon my RP8/Dyna 17D3 for sell. On another note I am curious if anyone has used the 17D3 and also listened to the new 17DX is the price jump worth it? |
Back in 1980 I bought both a diamond and a ruby cantilevered Karat. Both were superb, but I prefered the ruby and sold the diamond. These were killer cartridges .... which I'd love to have today. Better than most MC's and equal to or better than my AC-2. |
Thanks. @chakster Yes agreed but it's time I spin with a Dyna! Maybe I will try the Sussuro soon too.
|
I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua and curious about retip options for the future.
DV does retip and refurb carts above the XX2 line. |
The only problem of those Te-Kaitora and X-1s Dyna cartridges is unprotected cantilever which is so easy to destroy assidentally. Some other carts on the market from various manufacturer have the same problem, personally i would never buy any of them for this reason. I feel better with conventional design, when the cantilever is under the cartridge body and protected from left and right side a bit better. |
I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua
Let us know what you think, must be a great cartridge |
I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua and curious about retip options for the future.
Was looking at the Sounsmith Sussuro, and while I have enjoyed their carts in the past, I wonder if the high price tag reflects the smaller outfit and time for production etc. given it is a small shop. Not saying price = sound but I've always wanted to try this Dynvector having never owned one.
|
@lewm
Saw something interesting on the spec sheet for the 17D3; the internal resistance is 38 ohms! This means don’t use the standard 100 ohm load that one would normally use for an LOMC with 0.3mV output. It also means that the 17D3 has relatively large coils and relatively weak magnets. I am in no way saying or thinking that these numbers predict mediocre sound quality. As I recall, when it was introduced, the 17D3 was something of a giant killer at its original price. I still have not auditioned mine, which has very low hours from new. (It is from the estate of my dearest audiophile friend; I was consulted on his decision to purchase it, although he was at least as knowledgeable as I will ever be.) I actually heard it on his system once or twice before his symptoms of dementia became very advanced. We both liked it.
I would load mine at no lower than 1000R, maybe 47K.
Chakster, how do you load your 17DS? I can't remember, but most likely i've tried 470 or 2200 on JLTi phono stage with that Dynavector. BTW with my Ortofon MC2000 i use only 47 Ohm on the Gold Note PH-10 phono stage, because recommended load impedance for this cartridge is 20-100 Ohm (stated in the manual). Cartridge internal impedance DC resistance is 3 Ohm. |
I had Dynavector 10X4 in the ’80s used for a long time, the sound was good and I was satisfied but the improvement was when for the pleasure of trying I removed the red casing ... the sound improved considerably leaving me impressed; at that time there was no talk or very little was known when the casing of cartridges was removed and the sound became better.
Since then it is possible to remove the casing from the cartridges I use.
|
Yes I noticed that the cantilever wasn´t made of diamond but it is gray so probably boron but it is short (about 3 mm if I remember correctly). It was advertised as a very limited edition with number 1 stamped on metal, but no DV logo and wooden body is longer that "real" 13D. So possibly it is a prototype for all those short-cantilevered Dynas ?
Anyway, it is an excellent MC with refined and dynamic sound, also w/o its aluminium headshell and tracks 90 microns. It may be better w/ headshell but I´m not interested in integrated cartridge designs and I never used w/ headshell. Buyer says it´s a great buy so good for him.
|
Your cartridge, Harold, is most likely refurbished/recantilevered 13D, but not the original. The index "13" is nothing else but the length of the Diamond Cantilever (1.3 mm). Your Dyna has Boron Cantilever of the different
length, if the length of the cantilever is not 1.3mm it is not the original. |
Ivan, you are absolutely right: we must not forget Friedrich Nietzsche. In music, his ideal for Übermensch is also introduced in "Zarathustra" by Italian rock band Museo Rosenbach, in 1973. One of the very finest albums of that special subgenre, Classic Italian Progressive Rock.
Btw, I just sold my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D w/ its integrated aluminium headshell (Limited Edition of 60 samples), not because it isn´t good enough for my system (it is more refined sounding than AT-ART9) but I just don´t need anything extra for any cartridge. And to fund my other MC desires, of course. And in the end of the day, all this is just recycling, like we all do it.
|
Harold-not-the-barrel:
Although I only watched the clip once, I believe the musical Wittgenstein is a relative of Ludwig Wittgenstein.
BTW the admonition you quote from the end of the Tractatus, viz,
" Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen".
is derived from the predecessor Nietzsche, who L.W. must have studied, viz.:
"Of that we cannot speak nobly, we must perforce be silent."
Back in grad school I wrote a paper on the irony of L.W. using this remark.
BTW the "new" XX2 series Dynavector is one of the great bargains in audio and is compatible with a wide series of tonearms. Mr. Pranko gives great support to endusers and dealers alike.The top of the line Dynavector cartridges are sensibly priced and slap the $20k cartridges around.
|
Dear chakster, In your post (07-10-2018) you mentioned that
Tominari made 60 samples of Nova 13 D for USA market.
This may explain those ''astronomical'' prices which you hate.
But you should know better because you should know how
the new rich in Russia compete with each other. They compete
with prices because they never learned ''the connoisseur art''.
Like the first English capitalist who copied English aristocracy
because they had no idea what to do with their money.
So all those ''insane prices'' are meant for the ''new rich'' and
not for us the ordinary forum members.
|
I should have not said that... But I say thanks for Chakster for the Dynavector links but I still can´t find my sample there. Mystery not solved yet. Mine may also have a hyperelliptical stylus tip on short boron cantilever as the sound is very refined. Very well, as also this little correspondence apparently shows and thus reminds me one of the greatest thinkers of our time, Ludwig Wittgenstein. So sadly unknown to majority of humans, also here at Audiogon. Despite our Nandric´s constant reminders. And like we this or not Wittgenstein was absolutely right. " Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen". And I would like to take this opportunity and introduce you another great man, our national hero, well for some at least (smile), M. A. Numminen and his interpretation of the subject. This is a homage to great Wittgenstein: https://youtu.be/CGksgZKecKE |
I think each innovation usually patented by the person/company who invented them. Each cartridge designer/manufacturer invented their own unique things. This is why each cartridge is different and we can decide which one is better in our systems.
For example 7 unique patents belongs to ZYX in design of the Premium 4D model as i can read in the manual that comes with my 4D. Each cartridge designer believes that his cartridge is the best ever.
Here is Nakatsuka-San (ZYX) statement:
"For both MC and MM cartridges, 15 vital design points apply, however they are not the same in each caswe. Only in our ZYX series have these points been correctly identified and attended to, and thus only the ZYX series can play Real Stereo. The 15 vital design points for a MC cartridge are as follows" :
1. Magnetic pole direction
2. Coil winding direction
3. Coil winding method
4. Prevention of dynamic included current in the coil bobbin
5. Prevention of dynamic included current in the magnetic circuit
6. method of prevention of dynamic included current
7. Prevention of dynamic included magnetic flux in the magnetic circuit
8. Grounding of coil bobbin (yes or no and method therof)
9. Grounding of yoke (yes or no and method thereof)
10. Grounding of magnet
(yes or no and method thereof)
11. String of output terminals
12. Case material (metallic or non-metallic)
13. Grounding of case
(yes or no and method thereof)
14. Electrical connection between cartridge case and headshell
15. Direction of wire drawing
Now we can look at the Miyajima cartridges (for example, as the oppositeto ZYX) to see that these cartridges are completely different compared to ZYX. Miyajima-San invented cross-ring method, cantilever of his top cartridges made of exotic bamboo and the cartridge body made of exotic hardwood.
Which cartridge is better? There is no direct answer. All i can say they are very expensive cartridges. But when it comes to some $20k cartridges i'm getting sick of it. I would rather buy reel to reel instead. Spending 20k on a cartridge is like buyin yourself a private jet. Definitely not for every audiophile. And i don't care if they are better, the price is insane! |
Dear @bimasta: ""
the short cantilever has many obvious advantages ""
I don't know what you mean with " obvious " .
If shorter cantilever could has " obvious advantages " everyone will design its cartridges with way shorter cantilevers no matter what.
ZYX, My Sonic Labs, Benz Micro, VDH, Clearaudio, Transfiguration, Dynavector, Koetsu, Ortofon, Lyra, etc, etc . today medium to top models outperforms any of those Dynavector short length cantilever models or the ones named wrong " cantilever-less " cartridges.
Today exist cartridges next to 20K dollars where designers made it all they want in a freeland: cost no object and very short cantilever length is not " there ".
You can have for less than 800 hundred ( second hand. ) a 17D3 and for less money the 23R and OBVIOUSLY can't compete with the Lyra Atlas or the Universe or Colibri or the Coralstone or XV1s.
So what are you talking about?
R. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : Fascinating?, that's only the de item bandwidth with out any reference that can tell us is a flat response, normally the deviation is over 3+db. Some Denon cartridges goes to 110khz or Technics to 120khz.
Overall design is the key with cartridges and specs that can tell us " something ". Example: 10hz to 45khz +,- 0.5db.
Anyway, good that you like it.
R. |
|
Frequency range from 3 Hz to 130 kHz .... measured on Air Tangent ...
Fascinating.
|
I agree with Lew 's post from 06-30-20018 stating that ''exotic'' parts do not guarantee ''Nirvana''. But I will try to first make our ''implicit'' conceptual presuppositions clear and than elaborate. The first is the simple sentence form ''S is P''. The basic form to ascribe properties to objects. The other is ''parts and wholes'' pre- conceptions. I think that we all can agree that without comparison between cartridges we can't make any judgments. However comparisons are relational in logical sense while ''S is P'' sentence form is not suitable for relational descriptions. Say ''brother'' is not some kind of property of an person but a relation to some other person. We can see that ''our'' chakster try to explain differences between carts by their ''parts''. Say in the sense of Lew's ''exotic parts''. He is very fond of ''diamond cantilevers'' which should be ''as short as possible'' (grin) This is not my reproach but he admitted to have an ''border line'' regarding cart prices. I don't believe that prices have necessary relation to sound quality but what we call ''the top kind '' are usually pretty expensive .Anyway chakster limited himself in the sense of ''extension of his comparisons''. This limitation is , say, ''financial'' which is in my case ,say, of less importance. So I was able to buy Allaerts MC2 which provide pretty strong arguments against ''exotic parts'' reasoning. There is nothing special by this cart in the sense of ''parts''. The cart is conventional even old fashioned. But look at its technical specs and you will not believe your own eye. There is no other cart that can come close.
|
No model number anywhere and unfortunately no papers came with. The only information is a stamped little mark "1" on bottom of the aluminium part (base) of the wooden body. My sample may very well be re-cantilevered though. According to Hart Audio in UK this was made for the Japanese market only not US. And the wooden body is much longer and heavier. https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ar2yUQrU4Bz4hHnjECkAx6g8EQuB
Whatever the case, a modern MC AT- ART9 has nothing on it in audio quality when using stand alone fashion on the aluminium wanded Trans-Fi linear tracking TA. Tracking easily 90 um at 1.5 g actually it´s the finest (and flattest, excuse my clumsy expression) MC I have heard, in particular mids is very transparent and highs so refined almost sweet but my knowledge and experience in MC kind is limited.
|
Below is the answer from Doctor Noburu Tominari himslf for those who’re asking why top models comes with long Boron cantilever.
RG. "I notice that neither the XX1, the Te-Kaitora nor the XV1 use gemstone cantilevers. Why is that?"
Dr.Tominari (Dynavector Systems): "At the moment, the construction of this magnetic assembly used in these cartridges requires a long cantilever. It would be very difficult to engineer this for a short cantilever, and also very, very expensive."
Dr.Tominari
(Dynavector Systems):
"The Te-Kaitora is really just a special version of the XX1 made for Mr Denson who distributes Dynavector products in Japan and also builds the Dynavector electronics. It has no body, and uses better magnets and selected parts. And also better quality wires as well."
|
|
I have a 23 Ruby Karat and the short cantilever has many obvious advantages, which we've covered in this thread. It does have one disadvantage — if there's any warp in the record, the change in SRA as the cartridge moves up and down will be greater with a short cantilever. Not an issue when playing flat (or flattened) LPs...
|
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : Everything the same the XV1s outperforms the 13D as the XV1t too ( and other today cartridges. ) and here we can see that Dynavector choosed a longer cantilever for its top of the line cartridges and not the the short ones like the 13 or 17D.
As I said a cartridge is the sum of its parts where cantilever length and build material and its shape are only parts of that overall cartridge design.
R. |
@harold-not-the-barrel actually Tominari-San has mentioned 60 samples of Karat Nova 13D made for US market, but is there any model number on your cartridge? You should know that "13" in the model number is for the 1.3 length of the cantilever. I hope your sample is not re-cantilevered Karat Nova 13D ?
"KARAT" is for gemstone cantilever, never heard about any KARAT with Boron cantilever.
Any chance that your sample is not the original, but a refurbished (re-cantilevered) one ?
When it comes to diamond cantilever for re-tipper it is impossible to find anything like the original short dyna gemstone cantilever. Those special gemstone cantilever were made for dynavector by Namiki. |
^ Very interesting ....
Gentlemen and Ladies ... I would like to take this opportunity and introduce you another quite rare Dynavector cartridge: I have this a very limited edition Dynavector Nova Karat modified solely for the Japanese audiophile community, approx. 60 cartridges were made. The cantilever is short made of boron w/ Micro-Ridge stylus, the body is made of wood and it´s an integrated design w/ aluminium headshell. I bought this from Hart Audio, UK two and half years ago. They said this rare Dynavector cartridge is from the first production line for demonstrating the new Karat Nova Series so this sample is very rare and seldom comes for sale. They said they played app. 10 hours at most, it was practically like new then. This differs from the famous Karat Nova 13D integrated design, the boron cantilever is not as short and the wooden body is much longer and thus heavier. There is no DV plate/labeling in front of the body. This really may be the prototype for the Karat Nova. I would very much appreciate your input and hopefully for further information of my sample.
|
The 13D was made for US market only, it was a special development of the 17D according to the interview with its designer (Tominari-San): " At first when I tried short cantilevers I worked in sapphire or ruby and their resonance dictates a length of 2.5mm. But in Diamond, it is possible to use 1.7mm. We even made a very special product for the US high end market with a cantilever only 1.3mm long, and called the Karat 13D. It was our flagship model and sold nearly 60 pieces in America. The 17D was the first diamond cantilevered cartridge that we made, and the 13D was a very special development of it, using a special body and headshell arrangement. " - Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems) Dyna cartridges such as XX1 (first) with Flux-Damper and later all Dynavectors cartridges "involves winding a wire around the front yoke of the cartridge. Experiments showed that movement of the coils was generating a voltage in the yoke which in turn effects the linearity of the magnetic flux. It is this that makes many poor movingcoil designs sound thin and irritating. By short circuiting the yoke we prevent this happening, which leads to a much smoother and more natural high frequency balance. The effect is quite noticeable, which is why we put a switch on the XX1, so that people could hear the effect."
- Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems)
Speaking of the further development of the mighty Dynavectors such as XV1 and Te-Kaitora i would say that the long boron cantilever looks unprotected and extremely fragile. I would avoid using such cartridges for practical reason, but it’s just me. |
The most of us think that there must be technical ''reasons'' or causes for cartridge different performance. But considering the fact that (MC) ''technology'' is the same the reason why should be moved to the designers/producers. To mention few: Ikeda , Takeda, J.Carr, Van den Hul, Allaerts , Andreoli, Lukatschek (Benz), etc. In this sense we should see designers as ''artist'' instead of ''technicians''. |
Raul, sure there are cartridges that outperform Karat 13D or even Decca Reference in certain environment but not necessarely in all high tech stereo systems. There are so many different combinations of TAs, TTs and cartridges that even good old Michael can´t tell the truth.
|
I think we pretty much agree on this, Raul. |
Dear @lewm : ""
The motion of the stylus has to be transmitted to coils or magnets in order for transduction to occur. ""
Rigth and for that happens it needs that exist some kind of compliance for the stylus track LP grooves, normally through a cantilever that's the way till today.
Manufacturers and audiophiles use the cantileverless expression but not to really says is cantilever-less but to make some differentation to the normal cartridges design.
With no compliance for movements exist no recorded signal to transducer motor cartridge.
Obviously that the horizontal compliance is way critical but the vertical one has a role too. Normally the compliance figure in many cartridges designs is the same but in other cartridge designs the compliance values are different for horizontal motion than vertical one.
Compliance and cantilever length are very important in the quality cartridge performance but the cantilever shape and build material ti's too because we are talking here about vibrations/movements added by resonances developed down there that all are converted to music signal.
A shorter cantilever resonates and vibrates different from a longer one and not neccesarily better than the longer cantilever but cantilever build material makes always a difference because boron and diamond has different characteristics that has influence in what we listen.
There are several cartridges that outperforms the Karat 13D or the Ikeda REX 9 or the Decca's. A cartridge is the sum of its parts: overall design, part's quality, quality excecution of design and cartridge voicing. At the end a cartridge is the exclusive success achieved by the own designer targets and how he looks MUSIC reproduction by his design and how he surrounded it in the audio systems he used to made the cartridge voicing.
R.
|
After release of the $5k ART-1000 the price for Victor MC-L1000 jumped to the stratosphere. This MC-L1000 was an inspiration for the Audio-Technica designer. Those cartridges with printed coil is very fragile and 90% of them have some problems with output, normally one channel is dead or even both. The Victor MC-1 was the first Victor Direct Coupled cartridge and i bought a few samples, one of them has arrived, but one channel is dead. I also got my free broken sample from Nikola. I am waiting for the 3-rd sample, fingers crossed. SoundSmith reported this upon my request: "It is typically nearly impossible to repair the foil conductors on these. It depends where the failure is." Many years ago my virtual friend discovered a bunch of NOS MC-1 dead stock on Grand Canaria island at some old vinyl shop. At that time i was fascinated by my AT ART-2000 and refused to buy NOS Victor MC-1 from him, the price was acually very low, i regret it now (when all of his stock sold out). |
The ''revolutionary'' Art 1000 was already invented by JVC in
the 80is(?). The only difference was/is that JVC used on silicon
printed coils glued on the cantilever just behind the stylus. The
(thin) wire from the coils are glued ''upstream'' on the cantilever
and connected to the 4 ''output'' connectors.
My sample MC1(?) had an broken wire by the connection
between aluminum ''print'' and (copper) wire . Chakster got this sample as present form me and can better describe the details.
My description is from my memory.
|
Dover, Thank you for correcting me. But we are talking about two different things. However, I do take your point; there is a "cantilever" upstream from the coils. What I do not appreciate is your inability to make a point without also throwing in an insult. If you knew me better, you might find that I am not in fact stupid.
|
The problem of ''wholes and parts'' is obviously where to put the border line and prevent this way the inclusion of the whole universe (grin). However why should extension of cartridge ''subject'' include ''only'' the tonearm , TT and phono-pre? I, for example, still consider speakers as the most important ''part'' of the whole (''system'') while avoiding or overlooking the most important part is obviously ''strange''. The case is, as I see this, that we assume implicit knowledge by others. This help to keep the amount of our explicit statements in check. Otherwise we will get ''endless'' Mexican stories (grin). The other problem is the assumed ''difference'' between (MC) carts. The usual assumption is that the whole construction is ''simple'' and nearly as old as its invention (by Ortofon?). This problem is connected with our desire to see and describe differences among ,uh, ''identical ''. ''The same construction'' imply some kind of ''indiscernibles''. The real problem is ''exaggeration'' of assumed differences. The so called ''marginal value addition'' suggest the ''same'' problem.
|
I´m glad that also Dover keeps bravely carrying the torch. Actually I was waiting for his entrance. He has that mighty Karat Nova 13D you see.
" ... ultimately each design they can only be described in the context of the environment in which they are placed..."
Exactly. TAs in particular and TTs/decks plays another key role, addition to phono preamps. Decca, Dynavector, Soundsmith, Ikeda , Audio-Technica etc have a different approach to the questing we are asking for. The finest there are but all different.
|
