Gamut Di150 the king of the road.
Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK?
I’m trying to find a HIGH QUALITY integrated that has:
1. A no-corners-cut real class A - A/B power stage.
2. A real, high quality analog preamp line stage.
3. A good phono stage.
Aside from a few very high end products, the above described integrateds seem not to exist. Why can’t I find a quality integrated? Do we just have to accept having a pile of boxes?
1. A no-corners-cut real class A - A/B power stage.
2. A real, high quality analog preamp line stage.
3. A good phono stage.
Aside from a few very high end products, the above described integrateds seem not to exist. Why can’t I find a quality integrated? Do we just have to accept having a pile of boxes?
203 responses Add your response
Conrad Johnson CA200: Similar in function to an integrated amplifier, a control amplifier offers the significant potential improvement of eliminating superfluous connections, external cabling, and inter-device connection considerations that limit conventional audio systems. But the control amplifier also eliminates an entire stage of audio circuitry (the line stage) and its inherent colorations. Most integrated amplifiers not only forgo the advantage of eliminating superfluous circuits, but also are cheapened to offer a low cost entry into a prestigious brand, thereby failing to achieve even the performance gains that could be afforded by integrating preamp and amp into a single package. By contrast, the CA200 circuits incorporate top quality parts (metal foil resistors, polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors, machined gold-plated connectors, etc.) to fully realize the dramatic potential of a control amplifier to enhance the immediacy of musical experience afforded by fine recordings. As a result, the CA200 is notable for its resolution of subtle dynamic shadings and palpable imaging, for a natural harmonic tonality, and extraordinary resolution. A half-scale version of the Premier 350 amplifier at the CA200’s price would be an excellent value. Add in the full switching and level control functionality of the control amplifier and it can be seen to be a genuine bargain. |
To Those who dare to give the post their verbal thrashing. Get a life. People have different means and tastes, therefore your ever so mighty talking down to whomever, is not warranted. Don't respond if you don't like it. Bow out of the conversation and butt out. Keep your thoughts and let the others be. |
Good Integrated tube power amps are hard to design and make, except cost no limit amps. The reason behind this is any power amp with variable gain stage need ladder resistor network or multi section input transformers combined with switches, they are big and expensive. Also, any real highend power amp with high gain stage should have shunt voltage regulator to sound good, which is expensive and takes space due to heat dissapation requirement. All in all, for optimal cost effective production,it is desired to have seperate preamp and power amp manufactured. |
jond 2,619 posts 01-31-2018 4:32pm The OP has already answers his own, once again trolling, question. "Aside from a few very high end products", yes it's expensive to do all those things right. As with many things you get what you pay for. ++++++++ +1 ...... Nailed it ! .....point , set, and match! ..... ( Emphasis added). Don't feed the troll......full stop. Definition of an Internet Troll per Wikipedia : ".... In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusements..." |
There are plenty of perfect integrateds with an output of about 100 watt per channel. A good example would be the Yamaha AS 701/801. The problem arises if you need more power than that. Almost nobody seems to make integrateds with all the modern stuff like digital inputs, and a power output of 200 watts or more. And yet, that is what you need for most high quality loudspeakers in anything other than a small room. |
My my..One of the highest quality integrated amps in the U.S., hand made in sunny California, just popped up on TMR, brand new, not used, 50% off. The CODA CSiB. The V3 version. A real brute if you need a lot of muscle. 400 watts per side @ 8 ohms. All silver finish, I'm considering buying it to put in my Bentley. Sure is pretty at $ 2799.00. |
Sure, but no digital inputs and not particularly cheap. My observation was that there are numerous really very good integrated amplifiers from mainstream manufacturers with about 100 watt per channel output such as the Yamaha's that I referred to, but above that the market is much much thinner. You either have to pay multi dollars for audiophile brands, or go the route of pro audio separates. I am just wondering if the 100 watt ceiling has a technical basis, or is just what the marketing people came up with as a practical limit to what make sense for most ordinary listeners. I really don't know. What I do know is that more watts make for a rather cleaner sound in many situations. |
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Margules “Macotela”. Pure class A, triode or ultralinear, all tube (12au7 preamp section and 6550-KT88-KT90 amp), auto bias (advanced active-servo bias), 40w triode or 75w ultralinear, zero negative feedback... Beautiful. http://margules.com.mx/es/amplificacion-margules.php |
@madavid0
Look no further: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Victrola-Nostalgic-Classic-Wood-6-in-1-Bluetooth-Turntable-Entertainment-/1... |
Well, I'm glad to see there's serious answers to this question in spite of certain members trying to push this meme that I'm a troll. I'm not dead set on the phono...I would just like not have to have another box to upgrade. The Anthem may be interesting. I normally wouldn't consider them... Modwright might be an interesting audition. LSA is hard to approach because you can only get them from a junk dealer (Underwood HiFi). VERY suspicious of the Creek. Will it really compete with field we're talking about? I just really don't want to have to upgrade the pre (thousands upon thousands), upgrade the phono (more thousands), just to find out something doesn't mesh well with something else. |
Hey, I thought, like you, that the all the integrated suck, up to the point I found Accuphase E-600 (then the E650). You can buy an add-on card for the phono stage, that is the AD-40 (or the new AD-50), You can also buy an add-on card for DAC, that is the DAC-40 (or the new DAC-50), They are all pretty expensive, but they are definitely worth it, IMHO. They have it all: look, extreme quality build and hard to match sound(pure class A), and they hold their price.. http://accuphase.com/model/e-600.html Good luck ! |
Vinnie Rossi LIO. With the LIO yo have choices. Choices of input line stages, DAC, two different phono stages, headphone amp. You can order it one way and change it as your needs change. This is the finest piece of audio equipment I have ever owned and recommend it without hesitation. Good luck on your journey. Cheers! |
+1 on the Vinnie Rossi LIO (w/ DHT stage). I’ve owned Ayon Triton, Triton II, Accuphase E-560 and demoed the Luxman 590-AXii, as well as owned separates from Modwright and Herron. The LIO was juuust right. As versatile as it gets and w/ the ultra-cap off-the-grid power, it’s the cleanest tube sound I’ve heard. Also the preamp is killer, as I am using it as DHT preamp only with a reference quality $15k amp...and the internal amp in LIO stood proudly not to far behind my amp. Excellent reviews and show coverage out there for the LIO. |
I've been out of the high end for a long time. My last foray included an Auduble Illusions 3A preamp and a Meitner STR-101 power amp. Just like week I acquired a mint used Revox B150 integrated to drive my Mirage M590i speakers in a bedroom system. Back then, circa the early to mid 1990s, I believe it sold for about $1,400 Can. Apart from being a little bright, it is fast, detailed, and exquisitely dynamic both on micro and macro passages, with thunderous bass. The midrange is very neutral and not quite as "romantic" as the abovementioned combo. It is no Hegel 360 but is certainly in no way "crap". |
I sampled this recently vs LTA pre/power and Odyssey Kismet/Candella and it won. The other went back and they Lyngdorf stayed. I'm still amazed by it. Sadly, the Odyssey and certainly the LTA hardware were WAY cooler looking. But this all about the ears. Not the eyes. Find a dealer and give it at try. https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/integrated-amplifiers/lyngdorf-audio-tdai-2170-fully-d... |
Integrated amplifier vs. separates? It all depends on who's baking the bread. Certainly if you tell your design team they can design without sharing the apartment the end results have the potential to outperform. This assumes we are operating at the same level of engineering, have access to the same technology, and with almost unlimited parts availability. Some IAs will dramatically outperform some separates while also costing more. Like most things it ultimately gets down to money. Not just the cost of the component. (Some very expensive devices still render poor sound quality). Access to quality R&D (money) is a big deal. Despite the subjective nature of the exercise this same thing can be said of loudspeakers. Regardless of your budget consideration should be given to the manufacturers operating budget, access to technology, the quality of the design team, and the overall commitment to excellence. |
I went down this path for a long time. I started out with a Micromega Minium Amp, which actually sounded great. Excellent phono stage, very high-resolution sound, very dynamic, even a great headphone jack. After less than a year, it started blowing devices in the power amp section. They were hard to come by, and there was no service center for Micromega in the US. Then I went vintage for a while. I used an Advent Model 300 for several years. Not bad, but it doesn't really get your toes tapping either. Looking for something better lead me down researching the Rega/NAD/Arcam amps. I was ready to pull the trigger on an Arcam, when a dealer convinced me to listen to a Naim Nait 5i. I was done for. The Naits are all fabulous integrated amps, regardless of the particular model. Unfortunately, newer models don't have integrated phono sections, but I prefer the modularity for easy upgrades. They are all Class A/B as far as I'm aware, and most have active preamps. Many have the ability to upgrade to a higher-quality outboard power supply. The DIN connectors really do sound better than the RCA connectors, even if you're using an adapter cable. One caveat is that the original Nait 5i (non-italic) has a passive preamp section, and the Nait 5 has a volume control that a lot of people didn't like. So you might want to go older or newer than those two models, which were current around 2003-2005. Regardless, that one piece of gear made me a true believer in the Naim sound. I now have separates, a Naim CD player, and a couple of power supply upgrades. Their equipment tends to hold value well, so upgrading is fairly easy. |