Zd542 That might be true, but its still speculation. I could argue (successfully), that the problem may lie elsewhere. Unless someone has access to the OP's system and room, we can only guess as to what the problem is. Getting good sound is a hands on activity just for that reason.'
true, but it seems a less likely problem. basically we have a very small bedroom with 8 ft ceilings. unless the room is extremely well treated its hard to imagine getting it right using a better cdp. just saying a small space like that is gon have all sorts of problems if not treated. but yo are right, we are not there. |
Almarg's suggestion is excellent (I operate my speakers with a Dialogue on the 4ohm taps and get a much more linear response than when using the 8 ohm taps). You might get a lot of mileage out of using a sound pressure meter and a frequency response test disc to help you identify nulls and nodes at the listening positions (and speaker placements). This should help find the most linear sound you room can produce and the best position for your speakers. Once you do this you can fine tune using acoustic treatments which are appropriate to your problems.
But, FWIW, there are no quick fixes. Takes a lot of time an patience to get it as good as it can be. |
Dylanfan...Lots of great advice, and as always, Al has suggested a good idea in trying the different taps on the amp.
The consensus is that the room is the problem area in reproducing good sound, but I still say first run your system in a near-field setup to verify good synergy between components. Your CDP will sound fine playing modern CDs from quality record labels.
If you are pleased with the result, then use the full room and set up acoustic treatments. Several members on this thread have small rooms and can advise you on the size of panels. |
"05-25-15: Veroman
blaming a 500$ cd player is ludicrous. it is the room folks. beyond that the source is foremost."
That might be true, but its still speculation. I could argue (successfully), that the problem may lie elsewhere. Unless someone has access to the OP's system and room, we can only guess as to what the problem is. Getting good sound is a hands on activity just for that reason. |
I would do at least one full wall of auralex, preferably behind the listening seat. The key is to kill reflections and make your room acoustically bigger.
I had a room like that 12x11, with back fully treated, each side partially treated, center front wall treated, and two columns of foam (4ft tall/12" diameter) in the front wall corners... music was inaudible before treatment, and great after, with all sorts of big and small speakers. |
blaming a 500$ cd player is ludicrous. it is the room folks. beyond that the source is foremost. are they next generation cd's? redbook is very hard to get right unless the recording was primo, which many can be |
"A budget CD player can sound damn fine, and anyone who has been in this game long enough can tell you that. Please give the pontificating about $3000 players a break. Dylanfan, ignore this "advice."
I have to agree. If you judge audio components by how much they cost, you'll have a train wreck. Its very common for a lower priced component to sound better than a more expensive one. |
One thing no one has asked about so far is whether you have tried both of the output taps on the amp, and also whether you have tried the amp in both ultralinear and triode modes. If you are presently using the 8 ohm taps, and haven't tried the 4 ohm taps, you should definitely do so. The impedance curve of your speakers, as shown in Figure 1 here, suggests that a fuller sound is likely to be realized with the 4 ohm taps (although using the 4 ohm taps with the X12 may reduce the amp's maximum power capability slightly, compared to the 8 ohm taps). That is particularly true because the Dialogue Five is described as using zero feedback, which is suggestive of a relatively high output impedance, which will be highest on the 8 ohm taps and will interact significantly with the wide swing in speaker impedance that occurs between around 200 Hz and 1.5 kHz. Whether you use UL or triode mode is also likely to make a significant difference. As would changing power tubes among the numerous kinds the amp can accept (EL-34, 6550, KT88, KT90, 6L6GC, KT66, 7581, EL37, etc.). As would changing the small signal tubes in both the amp and the preamp. I (and others here) have found with other power amps that the choice of small signal tubes can often make more of a difference than the choice of power tubes, and can often mean the difference between sound that is unacceptably thin, and rich, satisfying sound. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
This site needs a like button. |
Dfarmer,
A budget CD player can sound damn fine, and anyone who has been in this game long enough can tell you that. Please give the pontificating about $3000 players a break. Dylanfan, ignore this "advice." |
"05-23-15: Drubin
+1 to Stringreen's suggestion. A good way to find out if the system ahead of the speakers is at fault."
I don't see why that would be. Going with headphones means that you will be cutting out not only the speakers, but the amp, and probably the preamp if you have a separate headphone amp, all cables and accessories down stream of your headphone amp and the room. And your source may not sound exactly the same connected to different equipment.
Its a reasonable idea and by all means, try it. I just think the results may be all that reliable. |
Greetings Dylanfan!
The reason your system isn't "Doing it" for your is most likely due to the fact that $495 CD players won't "Do it" for me either.
You have vacuum tube amplification and Dynaudio speakers which are just fine but a $495 Digital front end will still sound like a $495 CD player even with a $20,000 pair of monoblocks and a pair $15,000 speakers.
I have a friend that has a pair of $15,000 speakers and it becomes BORING to listen to very quickly due to the fact that he will not put any serious money into his source.(he has an $495 Oppo, which is great for $495, but not for spending any more than 20 minutes of serious listening to)
I will put a $1000 pair of mini monitors with a 3-5K Digital front end and 2k of amplification any day before I will go with mass market or mid-fi digital front ends. Substitute an Ayre QB-9 DSD in for around $3000 msrp and you will experience a new world. (not to mention putting an end to having to replace worn out digital transports)I'm not saying the Marantz you have is a bad component, It just can't do things like make every song on an album have meaning and purpose like a true high-end source component can. I actually have a $3500 DAC and a $7500 Turntable and only a $1200 pair of Maggies with $650 worth of crossover upgrade and it is ALWAYS exciting to listen to. Really, having anything less than the Ayre DSD and I would not know why I would be spending this kind of money on vacuum tube amplification and high-end speakers. Please fell free to email me with any questions, i'm not a dealer.
BTW, nice choice on the primaluna stuff.
David. |
+1 to Stringreen's suggestion. A good way to find out if the system ahead of the speakers is at fault. |
Have you listened to your equipment through earphones? |
I read the Decware paper linked above by Sebrof and myriad of other "how to" articles and am still lost. I already had Room Tune products in recommended ceiling and corner spots. But when I added acoustic panels at first and second reflection points and behind my listening position, my sound became lifeless and boring. IMHO I over treated my room. But did I? I thought I treated the room correctly. Is it just a matter of getting used to the new sound?
And for a room with an 8' ceiling are 2'x4' panels to be placed midway on the wall or on the lower half or upper half of the wall? I apologize for such basic questions. |
Another thing to try is to put the speaker into the corner, right against the wall. |
a hindu sage was confronted by a man who said his meager budget forced him to live above a noisy garage and he had trouble meditating, the sage asked his students to submit a solution. they all got it wrong. finally the sage said to the man in question....MOVE. |
I'm not an electrician, but I thought you had to have 2 legs in order for your AC to work properly. I had one leg go out in my house a few months ago and nothing worked. It was a nightmare. Maybe we're not talking about the same thing? |
Very small room and close to being square. I would try some acoustic treatments at the 1st reflection points.
Is it possible to do an experiment? Can you take your equipment and place them in a bigger room for a couple hours? If you find you like your system in a different room, then it's not the equipment. If you don't like it again, then you need to start eliminating/changing things |
+1 for the fact that about 50% of Agon posters I have interacted with over the last ten years responded to this post within one day.
+2 for the "room is the problem"
+3 for the stuffed animals suggestion.
+4 for the near field listening suggestion. I have my office system set up near field with monitor speakers on the diagonal near the corner in a smaller room with a sub and it is spooky good, even at (relatively) high volume. My equipment is half as good as Dylan's. In another problem room (too lively) setting monitor speakers up on the floor solved the glassy sound. Isolate with wooden plinth may help further.
Mapman. Just have to say one of the best systems I ever heard for synergy was Primaluna One integrated plus Dynaudio 52SE with vinyl front end. To each their own.
in |
No that is not a joke, first hand experience. No amount of equipment change could solve it. And it was not the room either. |
"05-20-15: Coli
I guessing he's using 2 legs of the electricity which will destroy the sound, make sure only 1 leg is used."
I assume that's a joke.
"05-20-15: Rlwainwright
It would seem that even a cursory reading of the responses indicates that you have a room that is your main problem. The speaker/room interface is, BY FAR, the most important arbiter of good sound quality."
That's not always the case. What's most important will vary from person to person. For me, there are other qualitites that to be more important then the room to speaker interface. |
I guessing he's using 2 legs of the electricity which will destroy the sound, make sure only 1 leg is used. |
It would seem that even a cursory reading of the responses indicates that you have a room that is your main problem. The speaker/room interface is, BY FAR, the most important arbiter of good sound quality.
The folks who are advising that you run around throwing equipment at your problem are way off base. Adding an AC power conditioner isn't gonna do jack sh!t for you. And neither will expensive speaker cables and over-priced AC cables.
You *must* improve your speaker/room interface. The best ways to do this are:
1) Carefully "tuning" of the room/speakers to eliminate early reflection points and peaks/nulls caused by standing waves.
2) Employing the use of "room correction" software (RCS). Surely you've heard of Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov and other such systems? If not, time to get on Google and start getting educated. The better RCS systems can do an astonishing job of taming problem room/speaker interfaces.
In fact, your best bet is to combine 1 and 2 above. Read up on how to "tame" your room with acoustic treatments and employ the tricks learned there. Then get an RCS system and spend a coupla days or so dialing in the room using the RCS.
I flat guaran-damn-tee you that if you do these two things your system will sound *worlds* better!! And the knowledge you gain from this exercise will allow you to setup any future system much more quickly, easily, and accurately.
Feel free to contact me off-list if you'd like some help or advice....
-RW- |
Sound Anchors also makes equipment stands. I have one built custom for my preamp and turntable, each sitting on an anti-vibration platform; it has 4 shelves so the CDP is taken care of as well. I've run it this way for years. It was a nice improvement. |
http://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-1004209-ISO-L8R155-Medium-Pair/dp/B008GOP79G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432133841&sr=8-1&keywords=isoacoustics
If you need a pair of inexpensive but effective isolating speaker stands for smaller speakers in a small room, you probably cannot go wrong with these. They were one of the most unique and effective tweaks ever for me in my wife's small and acoustically challenged 12X12 sunroom. |
SOund Anchor are nice stands.
If those are sounding good 24" off the ground, the Isoacoustics I mentioned might be worth a try. These are less expensive pro stands and very effective but are short stands designed to be used with pro studio monitors. Can be used on floor, desk wherever needed. Three sizes available. One of those would likely fit the smaller Dynaudios or ls50s.
Which speaker are you talking about now that you are hearing better results with different stands and nearfield? The Dynaudios, KEFs or both? |
So how is nearfield sounding at different volumes and with various music genres? |
"1:Dyaudio's are generally low in sensitivity and may need a more powerful amp when playing louder.
2: CD player is not up to snuff
3: Cables not up to snuff either. Kimber 8TC is a good starter cable without the resolution of some of the better cables out there, I would also suspect the Morrow. The ew series 7 Wireworld cables are fantastic.
4: Power conditioning can make a huge difference also power cords.
The last thing I would change is the speakers the Dynaudio's are very good so are the Kef LS 50.
If you get a good power amplifier not class D with the Prima preamp you would get a nice improvement."
He could do all of that and it would still sound like crap when you consider the room is about the size of a walk in closet.
Shakey |
Dylanfan: You can post a video link of your setup, then it will be at least some clear picture to members for help, for me I'm pretty simple guy, near field computer setup, with accurate imaging, with sweet spot setup and moderate volume, you can enjoy music more. If you wanna have party sound right, I guess we need to have proper acoustic management as fellow members suggested here, also mastering of audio track is another important matter to consider, very bias and confuse for all these, my sweet spot setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpEHq2VpNCI |
Well wonder of wonders. A friend of mine who deals in vintage audio got in a pair of Sound Anchor speaker stands 24 inches high. I picked those up this afternoon and then moved my speakers out closer to me for a more near field listening. Sounds much better. Still given my tiny room not much else can be done but This sure helps. My Primaluna sounds great like this. I can live with the cd player for now. Thanks Lindisfarne for the Sound Anchor recommendation. |
Yeah, so you don't have the best CDP, but that doesn't enter into this sound problem.
I agree that you should try listening in a near-field setup before buying new gear.
Set your listening position about 6 to 7 ft. from speakers. Start by positioning each speaker close to the side walls, then move them incrementally closer toward the center of the room. You'll eventually reach the sweet spot for soundstaging. Then try with and w/o subwoofer. This setup will help remove the effect the room has on the sound.
You may not want to live with a near-field setup, but by doing this first, you'll get a closer representation of the synergy of your system. You might find that your amp and speakers are a good match. |
A confounding thread, to say the least. As others have said, unless you can articulate/identify the desired destination other than "fuller sound", which is rather ambiguous, you cannot get there from here.
OP- you've got terrific components in a somewhat challenging room. Someone else suggested nearfield listening which removes much of the room from the equation.
Sometimes it pays to simply listen to the music rather than to the gear. Cable this, CDP that, etc....
Good luck. |
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"Bottom line is that, with the exception of your CD player, your choice of HiFi gear should get you a long way toward satisfying sound."
Why wouldn't you factor in the CD player? It doesn't make sense to leave it out. |
1:Dyaudio's are generally low in sensitivity and may need a more powerful amp when playing louder.
2: CD player is not up to snuff
3: Cables not up to snuff either. Kimber 8TC is a good starter cable without the resolution of some of the better cables out there, I would also suspect the Morrow. The ew series 7 Wireworld cables are fantastic.
4: Power conditioning can make a huge difference also power cords.
The last thing I would change is the speakers the Dynaudio's are very good so are the Kef LS 50.
If you get a good power amplifier not class D with the Prima preamp you would get a nice improvement. |
|
The preponderance of advice from the forum has been to address that room. You decide to change your cdp or speakers, WTF?
WTF indeed. At least he's not changing out cables ;) |
My experience with high end audio suggest that the size and dimensions of your room has a lot to do with your perspective on how your equipment is performing. A 9x11 room with the 8ft ceiling will never allow the propagation of really deep bass fundamentals. Along with that your reflection points almost assures that there will be standing wave problems. Having said that, however, there are remedies... which range from room correction software products to sophisticated tweaks which have been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. Bottom line is that, with the exception of your CD player, your choice of HiFi gear should get you a long way toward satisfying sound. I would leave your equipment alone and work on room acoustics before making other changes. |
I will echo the advice from Sebrof. I was forced to move in to a 12X12 room and after a few months of God awful sound I found the Decware paper Sebrof mentioned. The results were revelatory and I now have wonderful sound with a three dimensional soundstage to die for. Still can't go too loud. That ain't happening in a small room no matter how well treated it is.
You have some very fine equipment in a challenging room. The preponderance of advice from the forum has been to address that room. You decide to change your cdp or speakers, WTF? |
Tough room. D/C the sub. Then experiment with speaker position. Some panel treatment will help with high frequencies but very difficult to control room modes. I've had a small room in the past. I would rather have good headphones than wrestle with it again. |
I agree do not change anything until you have optimized what you have.
I have a 12X12 sunroom with cathedral ceilings that is my acoustically challenged room. My gear sounds fantastic in my other rooms larger and similar size, but that one was always a tough challenge acoustically. Its small but very lively with windows on 3 sides and reflective tile floors over a vibration prone modern suspended plywood floor.
I finally solved it and have it sounding spot on with small monitors positioned just a few inches off the floor with slight upward tilt using short and inexpensive Isoacoustic brand stands available on Amazon.
There was always too much or too little bass in this room not matter what I tried. Floorstanders, monitors on stands at ear level mostly.
The Isoacoustic stands were the key. They enable bass reinforcment from the floor from teh smaller Triangle Titus monitors but keep it clean by isolating the speakers from interacting with teh floor rather than coupling to it, as is usually the case with most floorstanders or monitors on stands.
Now that room is one of my best with perfect full articulate bass and all the rest in spades.
The key was getting the bass under control by isolating teh speakers from interacting with the floor using teh Isoacoustic stands.
OPs case may be similar or different, don't know. But thought there enough similarity to throw this seldom discussed and relatively inexpensive tweak option out there.
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Unlike most of the other posters, I do not know what your problem is. But I do know how to fix it. |
My experience mirrors Shakey's advise. If this room is dedicated to audio you might try a nearfield set up (for example a 6' triangle) where the speakers are well out into the room. At moderate levels this could sound quite nice.
The alternative I chose when I faced your problem was to use quality headphones and a dedicated headphone amplifier. Then you can get a recliner, close the door, and literally shut out the world! :-) |
After you discover that the CD player isn't the problem, might as well throw a pair of Lansche 8.2 speakers in that room, fill in any remaining space with stuffed animals, and start praying. |
Dylan...you are going in the absolute wrong direction with a speaker change. That is not the prob. It's the room and/or racks. |
I don't think the CDP is the main culprit. Room acoustics, amp/speaker synergy and cable synergy should be the focus. Ascend and Tekton are not an upgrade(possible downgrade)from your current speakers. I've heard Vienna Acoustic speakers(Haydn SE?) sound excellent with Prima Luna gear. Another monitor option(have not demoed)is the Coincident Triumph Extreme 2 which is made for tube gear and is claimed to have accurate bass under 50hz. |
Thanks for all the help. Going to change out the CD player first and see what happens. Been considering Ascend speakers and Tekton. Had Klipsch Forte's with a previous system and the sounded okay but too bright. |
That's a tough room. You will probably never get any speakers to sing at more than a moderate volume. Anything beyond that and you are overloading the room and exciting bass nodes too.
You said that some acoustic stuff sounds great. I say live with what you've got until you can move into a decent sized room.
Shakey |
Before you go buying anything else, can you give a few examples of CDs you are listening to that sound bad? Just want to make sure you're not judging a lot of really good equipment against some really bad recordings. I was just listening to Benjamin Orr's (from The Cars) "The Lace" and it sounds like when they recorded it one of the engineers fell asleep at the board and accidentally shoved all the high frequency sliders to max. There are so many bad recordings, if a person judges good equipment with them it would be easy to think you've created a bad system or have a bad room when in fact neither is the case. |
