Maybe you should close the can. This has been beat to death lately.
Opening a can of worms
Here is the can filled with opinions. It's been hashed and rehashed to infinity and beyond with no clear result. Since I am a seeker of truth I'll post my thoughts here for the yea and naysayers to debate over. Question is: Are expensive speaker or any other cable in a system worth the exorbitant cost over a reasonably priced cable loom? I thought I'd experiment myself to find out. My comparison is between Transparent Ultra cable loom and Blue Jeans cable loom on a pure stereo system comprised of Proceed PAV, Proceed PDSD, Krell Kav 250, Musical Fidelity A3cd, Sony Ps4300 TT and B&W 803D2 speakers. All sources were used by this experiment using identical playback material. Cables had in excess of 200 hrs burn time and all were identical in lenght. The only variation were the connector manufacturers.
One change that occurred during this 4 week long endeavor was that I'm firmly seated on the sharpest picket on the fence.
My result is that I'm now a believer that there are audible differences in cables. I also believe that these differences are minute and one has to really listen carefully and for a long time to discern these differences.
Now to the crutch of the matter, $$$$$, As we all know Transparent Cables would reside in the upper tier of Audio Cable expense. Blue Jeans Cable on the other hand falls into the lowest tier of expense (well maybe not lowest but low nontheless )
One would think then that the Transparent would be far superior to the BJs. Not really! Yes the highs were a little cleaner, mids a little tighter and lows a tad more pronounced but not by as much as one would expect. Soundstage was somewhat more open and airy and depth was somewhat more defined with the higher priced cable but again less than one would expect.
Now for my personal opinion regarding the cable debate: expensive cable looms are slightly better than reasonable priced looms, if a dollar equals a penny to you then by all means opt for the higher priced loom, if a penny equals a penny don't be ashamed for opting for the best you can do. The differences are so minute that it's not worth going into debt over. BOTH looms sounded superb on my test system and I would be happy with either loom.
Now let the debate begin, just know I'm a fence sitter and not in one camp or the other
One change that occurred during this 4 week long endeavor was that I'm firmly seated on the sharpest picket on the fence.
My result is that I'm now a believer that there are audible differences in cables. I also believe that these differences are minute and one has to really listen carefully and for a long time to discern these differences.
Now to the crutch of the matter, $$$$$, As we all know Transparent Cables would reside in the upper tier of Audio Cable expense. Blue Jeans Cable on the other hand falls into the lowest tier of expense (well maybe not lowest but low nontheless )
One would think then that the Transparent would be far superior to the BJs. Not really! Yes the highs were a little cleaner, mids a little tighter and lows a tad more pronounced but not by as much as one would expect. Soundstage was somewhat more open and airy and depth was somewhat more defined with the higher priced cable but again less than one would expect.
Now for my personal opinion regarding the cable debate: expensive cable looms are slightly better than reasonable priced looms, if a dollar equals a penny to you then by all means opt for the higher priced loom, if a penny equals a penny don't be ashamed for opting for the best you can do. The differences are so minute that it's not worth going into debt over. BOTH looms sounded superb on my test system and I would be happy with either loom.
Now let the debate begin, just know I'm a fence sitter and not in one camp or the other
216 responses Add your response
There are definitely audible differences in cables. But you can only hear them when you have the other variables in alignment with them. I have a pretty revealing set up currently and have just started swapping interconnects and have heard major shifts. With my system 5 years ago I probably would not have heard a difference. But I only do 2 channel stuff and I'm pretty particular to using class A or at least class A/B components. So I can't knowledgeably comment on your current rig. I do think that your B&W speakers should really be performing well and definitely be able to show a clear difference between cables given the right power and source. I'm going to take a wild guess but if you put a relatively simple and well built pre amp at the top of the chain you might start hearing what you want. |
Debate? The Transparent cables cost X, the Blue Jeans cables cost Y, and you have concluded which ones sound better. Is the difference in sound worth the difference in price? Everyone can opine but only you can answer. At the end of the day it is your system, your ears and your bank account, none of which anyone else’s opinion can take into account. |
I agree with the OP. His observations match my own and fall in line with what measurements might lead you to expect. Anybody interested in a well reasoned and measurement-backed analysis of cables and their potential contributions or detractions should read the article Nelson Pass wrote on the subject at passdiy.com. And by all means, laugh at Geoff. This guy tapes rocks to his cables. |
Correct, with some speakers (cones) there are audible differences in cables, because they change the complex impedance that the driver "sees." One could call the difference minute - it is certainly not as large as using a different speaker. And, there is no reason whatsoever to waste a lot of $$ on expensive cables - just keep swapping them at a cable rental place until happy (or until worn out, if you are the type of audiophool who is never happy). The use the $$ you saved to build a new listening room, constructed for the very best SQ. |
Go check out the nutjobs who think they can hear a fuse that's separated from the signal by a transformer, a pile of caps and resistors, and a couple feet of wire and circuit board traces! Those guys swear they hear stark differences. One guy said a fuse is almost impossible to listen to at a certain point of burning in! |
OP Is any cable worth its exorbitant cost? Depends on what you call ‘exorbitant’, doesn’t it? How deep, if at all, does one wade into the pool is their own question to answer. Anytime. Everytime. On any thing. Everything is relative. Most of my problems are relative so I stay away from my relatives as much as possible. I have found the sonic results of wires are similar to the results one gets from calling insureance companies for quotes on car insurance. Open the phone book, start with the A’s, and you’ll get a different price from each and every one of them. Some by a lot. Some not so much. But all are different. In fact, some won’t even insure you depending on your current carrier, and as such could loosely equate to those cables few can afford or are exorbitantly priced. Blue Jeans & transparent? I would not say those two makers are even anything resembling extreme ends of the industries cross section based on price, or popularity. It does however, make up two wire brands…. You have a very long ways to go to make sure your hypothesis is ‘global’ rather than between one tiny segment of the industry. At least two of them are quantified and qualified now. I recall years back, maybe ’04, ’05 a poster here said they opened the box on several wire makers cables. MIT, Transparent, Shunyata, and maybe a few more. There were posted pics which supposedly showed pretty clearly, there was nothing substantial inside the boxes. One post said they found only a stick, or peg, or rod with a wire wrapped around it. Of these brands, MIT, Shunyata, and SR cabling and electrical renumerating power strips, do alter the sonic presentation with their proprietary technologies, IMHO. The only cable maker in this list I’ve not had any good results with has been Transparent. I have not tried every model they make. Just a few. Certainly I’ve had EXP with many, many, other wire makers models. I’ve posted loads of cable reviews on these pages in the past. It’s a boring, lengthy, frustrating affair, and one restricted to those who are irretrievably pedantic, and expecially true for those who wish to fully optimize their cable loom by using different makes and models for specific ends.. Blue Jeans offers a decent value but it is easily surpassed if one wishes to do some testing, it usually won’t take long to find better than BJ although it will take a fair amount more money and time. Congrats!!! |
Superb reply s to this point. Both sides of the debate are convincing. With the multitude of cables to choose from my small experiment was certainly limited in scope and it's goal was to ascertain that there was/is a audible difference in cable and how much between budget and budget breaking cables. My equipment used may not be the absolute but I believe it can represent a fair median. My results were posted. I'm not arguing for either side. |
Ah Blindjim is the voice of wisdom and reasoning. Pay attention grasshoppa's because he knows what he is talking about. I think most of have been on this merry go round for awhile and I know there are doubters however, there ARE differences in cables. For example I can say there is quite a bit of difference between a HiDiamond P3 powercord and a Shunyata Python CX. Both are very good but very different. If one can't hear a difference or much of one between various brands then consider yourself VERY lucky haha. :) |
If there is not a difference in the sound of various brands/prices of cables, then why wouldn't we all just use the cheap stuff and invest more in music? One reason would be the "snooty" factor of liking the "idea" of having the high price spread in your system. Another reason why some invest tidy sums in cables is that in their system and circumstance they hear a difference that justifies, for them, their cable investments. My cable purchase decisions have been based in part on reviews, price and most importantly, experience over decades in audiophiledom. Please know that I, in that time period, have made some significant purchase errors. Fortunately, most of those mistakes were rectified at little financial detriment. Interconnects - I like the Audioquest line because of many years of experience with their cables and that whatever their current line is, their is a consistent sound revealed by their interconnects as you move up and down the line. The trick is finding the cable that best suits your sonic tastes with your system. Example. I tried AQ Columbias and Colorados from the line previous to their most current offerings. In being able to A/B them, the Colorados had a fuller more natural bass response than the Columbias. Their response sounded to me to be very linear up and down the frequency response of my system. Therefore, my system is wired with AQ Colorados. Speaker Cables - Here is where I learned a new lesson a little over a year ago. When I traded in my Vandersteen 3A Signatures for Treo CT, the copper heavy earth series AQ cables that I had used successfully with the model 3s sounded too heavy in the mid-bass with the Treo CT. And yes, I experimented a great deal with speaker placement trying to find a spot in my room to tame the mid-bass beast. Didn't happen. Then came research time. I was reading hours each day all over the internet, investigating cables from myriad manufacturers, many of whom I was completely unfamiliar with. It was in this forum however that I began reading more and more about Paul Laudati's Clear Day Audio cables. The more I read the more the adjectives used to describe the sound people were getting through them started to sound like what I was looking for. Next step. Call Paul. That I did. He was very forthcoming with information about his cables but made no wild promises about how they would do with my system. The price was very reasonable for what he was offering and so I took a leap, after even more research and purchased the Double Shotgun models. Fortunately for me, the mid-bass hump was gone and the treble smooth but opened up so for the first time I could truly hear what the CT tweeters were capable of. In summary, experience, research, personal contact and anecdotal information from others informed my choice here. Isn't that what a lot of us learn from other's experiences here on this forum, kinda the whole point of spending time here. The bonus is of course, in those situations where sharing your audio travels can help someone else here on their journey. |
Will a new $12,000 ARC power amp sound 600% better than a well known new $2000 tube power amp? How about a $12000 Pass Labs power amp. Will it sound 600% better than, say, a $2000 Marantz power amp? What percentage ratio can be expected for the differences in SQ of the equipment? 50% better sounding? 20% better sounding? 15% better sounding? 10% better sounding? 5% better sounding? 3% better sounding? |
@jea48 Will a new $12,000 ARC power amp sound 600% better than a well known new $2000 tube power amp? The only right answer to that is to make sure that if you're paying 600% more that it will do job exactly 600% more or better and that's exactly what I do otherwise no deal at least from me. Make sense? |
@hifiman5 Tough to quantify for most agree. You can profit on fool only if you're smarter and only if you can quantify. That's the core principle of economy to be smart in order to profit on fool and that's where mega-priced home stereo components including overly debated wires fit in. @geoffkait Thanks for showing how to 'quantify' out why Honda is best. |
@geoffkait There you go again, spouting your ass-backwards BS. I'll set you straight again... Honda is the company that made Ferrari rethink their entire approach to quality and luxury. The Honda NSX is widely considered to be one of the best sports cars ever built. The NSX was and still is the benchmark for quality and reliability in exotic sports cars. What's more, their sport bikes are among the best in the world. |
👺 kosst_amojan @geoffkait There you go again, spouting your ass-backwards BS. I’ll set you straight again... Honda is the company that made Ferrari rethink their entire approach to quality and luxury. The Honda NSX is widely considered to be one of the best sports cars ever built. The NSX was and still is the benchmark for quality and reliability in exotic sports cars. What’s more, their sport bikes are among the best in the world. >>>Uh, kross, did your Thorazine stash suddenly dry up? I was obviously referring to cheap Hondas. You know, since the thread has to do with relatively inexpensive cables vs very expensive ones. Duh! If you’re attempting to be the new poster boy for the reading comprehension challenged you’re doing an excellent job!. 👱🏻 Maybe you need a time-out. |
"....it happens every time they open these worm cans, Taunto. They escape, burrow into their brains. and consume everything from ear to ear. All that's left is this strange knee-jerk response pattern...." "No cure, Chemosavy?" *Sigh* "Only one, so far. But everyone's tired of cleaning up after it. It's more humane to let nature do it for us...." |
What this does is call into question the notion of the "sweet spot", at least as far as cables are concerned. No, not your listening chair, but rather the price point in the "family" of products where performance and price are best balanced. If you need to spend $5000 to hear even a minor significant improvement over $50, why ever spend $500? [numbers rounded for the sake of argument] |
@twoleftears To follow up on your point, another way of looking at the "sweet spot" is expressed as "the law of diminishing returns." Finding equipment that is in line with your budget that gets you the maximum sonic performance for the amount of money spent, such that to get much better sound you would have to spend a great amount more than the component you selected. That is where you want to be. So there is a "sweet spot" within a specific category of components ie. amps, preamps etc. and also as you were eluding to, a "sweet spot" in a particular manufacturer's line. Specifically, this can be seen in a cable manufacturer's line where there is a cable that gives you most of the sonic virtues available at a price point and to significantly improve sonic performance would require a major jump up in that line to a prohibitively expensive offering. |
Yes wires can and often do sound different. How much do they matter and how much should they cost? The only possible answer is "it depends". In general. I’d reserve a fairly small % of overall budget for wires. The smaller you can get away with the better. After all, they are only wires. No rocket science needed there if all else is well. Good quality wires made for pro use are always a safe bet if not sure how to cut through all the BS one will encounter with many products marketed mainly to audiophiles. |
Sounds like common sense to me, mapman. I can see spending upwards of $150 to build cables, but I can't justify more. The ones I'm using now cost less than $50 to build. They do sound better than 12g OFC. If I need to manipulate the character of my system more I'm better off spending the money on something more effective. |
By making a test with 2 cables and jump to a conclusion that there is no much difference between cheap cable to more expensive one is not more than a false generalization . First, there is no necessary correlation between the cost of the cable to its quality. Second,You need the match the right cable to your own system one cable can be good for one system and bad for another. Third,It’s better to use same level of all your system cables and better of the same brand ,mismatch of cables can make things worst. Forth, the most important test if the cable is right to your system is your own demo only .let your ears to decide what is good for you. |
itzhak1969 wrote, "Third, It’s better to use same level of all your system cables and better of the same brand, mismatch of cables can make things worst. Forth, the most important test if the cable is right to your system is your own demo only. Let your ears to decide what is good for you." >>>>>I suspect one might actually be better off using different brands, to allow any anomalies in say, frequency response, to average out. Just as one cannot generalize about copper and silver conductors, it depends on where they’re placed. Certainly cryogenics changes the whole cable comparison on its head as does directionality. Fortunately for the average Joe most high end cable companies pay attention to direction and Cryo their cables. Due to break in times and the issue with plugging and unplugging cables during comparisons, especially of new cables, I’d say conclusions are oft way premature and lead to many toss ups. On a related subject, is anyone using interconnects of different brands connected in series? |
>>>>>I suspect one might actually be better off using different brands, to allow any anomalies in say, frequency response, to average out. Just as one cannot generalize about copper and silver conductors, it depends on where they’re placed. Certainly cryogenics changes the whole cable comparison on its head as does directionality. Fortunately for the average Joe most high end cable companies pay attention to direction and Cryo their cables. Due to break in times and the issue with plugging and unplugging cables during comparisons, especially of new cables, I’d say conclusions are oft way premature and lead to many toss ups.
I totally agree with this. I think "too" many cables from one company can create anomalies. My interconnects and speaker cables are Morrow and they haven't caused any issues. My power cords have always been an array of manufacturers because simply I can change the flavor or tone. Yes one can with interconnects but I think its easier with power cords overall. |
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....and under all you can now include a new cable serving from TEO Audio....inspired by non-other than our very own mashedpotato-11 (a.k.a. randy-11 ) we are going cook up a new series of cables filled with our own special , you guessed it, mashed potatoes.....initial testing has shown them to be superbly rich and very smooth with no lumps ....can be ordered "au naturel", "lightly buttered" or the "la speciale" that comes with hot peppers..... ....a complete loom of the TEO Audio MPs will be just a dollop under $1,000,000(USD)....a delicious deal considering how yummy the potatoes are..... |
sam, - some speakers can sound different when cables with different complex impedances are used, so go to a rent / return cable place and try different ones - your manf. may have suggestions too - DACs need very low noise, so buy a LPS, buy or make a star-quad DC power cable for it, and galvanically isolate the inputs ==> or buy a DAC that is designed to be immune from any such effects - either way no need for a fancy USB cable - but if you do want one check out the Lush - buying expensive analog interconnects is woo-woo; get some good balanced ones and buy balanced components - do not wast $$ on fancy AC cables - buy well-designed components and an isolation transformer to solve any noise there * no affiliation with any consumer audio co.; none of the above will be as big an effect on SQ as expensive, top-notch speakers, room treatments, or building a new listening room... most importantly - ignore the trolls whose majors in interpretive dance did not equip them to understand any of this |
The better my system got, the more of a difference tweaks have made. Active shielding on vs off is a pronounced difference. Just getting my cables off the floor made a difference, too. Now I've fully 'tismed out, and my speaker cables only have 3 points of contact: the two terminals and a porcelain electric fence insulator on a 3' wooden dowel at its midpoint. (something like this: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/White-20KV-high-voltage-proof-electric_60026615576.html?spm=a... ) |
