Polite Rules for discussing Audio related things

elizabeth, I totally agree, unfortunately only in a perfect world.

The three categories of threads mentioned in the original post are missing at least one more. Threads that are none of those three and it is often close to impossible to decipher what the initial purpose for them was. They become a dumpster and fertile soil for behavior that probably, at least to some extent, prompted elizabeth to start this thread. Like responding to "No biggie" with "Surely not an English major" or something like that.


As far as censorship here goes, I think that administrators are more than forgiving. It is not easy to police a virtual world with many threads.

Speaking of stalkers, it may be flattering to think that way about self, but no, most of us are not worth stalking. A little paranoia here and there does not hurt. However, ideas of grandeur are laughable.

Back a while ago there was a massively successful drag racing game on mobiles.
It was so huge it spawned its own website and forums.
I was a member of THE most successful team in history there AND was a mod on the forum. Now we literally had the power of God!
Suspension,bans, complete annihilation of a members very existence, reset post count to zero( wouldn't GK love that one!).
But the point is that those powers were never needed, usually a few warnings were enough to calm the rabble.
But here is where I see a big difference, on that forum, all the mods were well known and very active participants in the forums and contests.
I am really not sure I truly like the faceless mods technique that this forum uses.

@ron1319- think of it as a giant, dysfunctional family. At least you don't have to show up for Thanksgiving or eat Aunt Tilda's 3 bean salad.
@erik_squires - Erik, in my experience, snark and downright craziness has been part of the Internet since the old Usenet groups. The WWW is just bigger, broader and encompasses more, as people spend more time on it for everything, not just topic specific stuff like Audiogon. I don't think the world has gotten uglier, we just get to see more of it  since everything is on the Internet. 

Oh right, was that a perfect example I wonder?
As long as we can keep things light hearted without any real angst and vilification then I for one am happy with the status quo as it is.
You don’t like a post?
Ignore it, reply to it or report it.

Sorry Geoff there would need to be a LOT more posts here for all of your stalkers to have showed up yet......

I'm a newcomer here and in general find this site to be friendly and helpful. There are some very obvious exceptions. Many sites are not welcoming or friendly to those who are just learning about the given subject of the site and I commend Adiogon for not being like that.

I think not feeding the trolls is really good advice that I often fail to take and have failed to exercise it here. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

I have moderated on other technical websites. It is hard to do well in part because it is easy to be biased for whatever points and beliefs you hold to be true and in regard to personalities. It is easy to abuse the role of moderator especially within a site that allows them a heavy hand.

I would agree with those who have said leave things alone here. For now.

I have also been a member of a paid website or two that had a specific forum for gloves-off discussions. The member is warned before entering. It worked well on one site where the general membership was generally intelligent and thoughtful. In the other site it was just pure acrimony and nothing else.

I am finding the whole community to be so into their own bickering and in-fighting that I am pretty likely to just buy my USB cable and speaker wires and be done with the whole thing.  Unsubscribe from the Audiogon forum emails and ignore it all.  The FB groups are worse but only by so much.

There is a problem with ’anything goes as that is what works for me, I’ve got a thick skin, and I give as good as I get"..

The problem is that the vast number of people who contribute and might contribute to a forum or thread are not of that nature. They are notably more gentle and easy going.

And so, if allowing for nasty behaviour and telling folks to toughen up, we get to a few forum members, with their thick skins - being the only forum denizens.

Everyone else has left as the median of the curve was left out.

So, what one needs to do, in order to run a forum.. a successful forum... is enforce civility --- and cut out, like a cancer, those who won’t be civilized and want free reign to denigrate, be sarcastic, and brow beat at will.

Social and cultural norms that work in a functional society, kinda thing.

FYI, ’users249’ was a pre-internet talk group from the old days, where ’anything goes’, no rules in what could be said..about anything or anyone. The very embodiment of shocking, brutal, extreme....and limited to such who could handle it.

The search for approval..
Credit to those with more wholesome intentions. Their contributions stand out here.

@erik_squires   Absolutely!  Your examples stated in the first of two posts above is spot on.  And I in NO WAY want to get into the political here.  I was referencing a cultural shift not the political aspect of it.  But I concede it is hard to divorce one from the other.  I was trying to point to the fact that all of us here are subject to the vagaries of a larger culture in which our lives occur and I prefer to hear all sides of an issue not just the side I agree with.  No to censorship on all sides save those that promote violence against others.

I want to refocus something. This is not a political forum. I don't think there's a problem with banning off topic conversations entirely, or rudeness. Also, anyone is free to hold to an idea with zero facts behind them. These "bad" practices here do not lead to the undermining of democracy or the rule of law. You are free to state opinions about music and audio that may have zero basis in fact. It's just a hobby forum. 

The issue here is whether each of us is encouraging a fun place that invites more fun smart people to join or not. Towards that end, I've stated how I try to behave and hope it is useful.

Best,

e

The"West" is experiencing an increasingly worrisome intolerance toward those who hold and want to express opposing views.  College campus speakers being shouted down, safe spaces, shadow banning on social media etc.  

Conspiracy peddlers encouraging violence with accusations of horrific crimes, leaders encouraging violence against the free press and using dehumanizing language to talk about others should also be on your list. 

Well, it should not be like Users249.

That is, if anyone even remembers what that means....

To paraphrase Alfonso Bedoya -- RULES!  We don't need no stinkin' rules.

But then again, ass Rodney King once asked, "can we get along...for the children and old people?"

Just read the thread to this point.  Thanks to Elizabeth for initiating the discussion.  It's probably good for us to bandy this about now and again to remind ourselves of our own quality of deportment.

The"West" is experiencing an increasingly worrisome intolerance toward those who hold and want to express opposing views.  College campus speakers being shouted down, safe spaces, shadow banning on social media etc.  

I would hate to see Audiogon follow along that troubling trend!  I would strongly recommend against any new efforts at censorship of content. 

Have we become so accustomed to cynicism that this "new norm" now dominates our thinking? We go there so easily and quickly at times.

Neil Peart of Rush said it so well in Witch Hunt: "Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand, ignorance and prejudice, and they walk hand in hand."

I try to be helpful to fellow 'goners if I’ve had experience with a piece of equipment or a system, but often when I have offered advice, someone follows up immediately with some unhelpful comment and, I don’t care if the arrow is thrown my way, but I feel bad for the OP who is now less informed and perhaps even more confused. I supported a particular brand and model of phono stage recently to help a fellow who was looking for suggestions and soemone jumped in with, "yeah if you want your system to sound like a tomato, nyuk, nyuk."

Is this the way of the world?

I have no opinion on enforcing censorship on Audiogon, but it is important to remember this is a commercial establishment. It is not a publicly owned forum. The same censorship rules do not apply. 

I find what works for me is to encourage those who engage well, and ignore those who do not. I'm not always the best example of this, but it is what I attempt. 

Also, there are people who are just waiting take on anyone who says anything outside the mainstream about their favorite brand.  Say something like "I found the Magician F a little too tall" and they will be right there. 

Best,

Erik

This is beginning to sound like 1984. Our freedom of speech is already being chipped away, why add to it. 

Wow, almost all of my stalkers in one place at the same time. Even Cyclops. What are the odds?

stereo5 has a point, but some people do not want to contribute to the discussion therefore it does not matter that the forum members have a thick skin. Some are here to sell their gear (think dealers) some are here to make the converstation about THEM (think geoff). In those two examples, the original subject goes off the rails because of ego drive idiots with thier own agenda.
Thread hijackers who kill the conversation. Some even create multiple identities, I guess to further feed their desire to be written about. Elizabeth it would be great if the forum members would adhere to reasonable rules with common courtesy and with the notion of being helpful.... I would agree with it. But even when we discuss negative experiences with any manufacturer or dealer, the thread will get dumped. So the forum really is only meant for positive experiences??? and to sell more audio gear.

@elizabeth You forgot to mention that the following, "Why" and "Please provide figures" are not allowed and constitutes Trolling. as I am mostly referred as.

Here is a thought, leave as is.  It is not up to us to police an uncivil thread.  If your skin isn’t thick enough then you have no business here.  This is a forum for all members.  What one person thinks is uncivil, another may think differently.  

Some people have difficulty dealing with dissenting ideas, that’s all. No biggie. Alliteration, anyone? Besides, the way it’s set up now anybody can squeal to the moderator if he objects to someone’s post. It doesn’t even have to be the OP. Hel-loo!

Another alternate would be able to make YOUR post to a thread flash and change colors text zooming out and back.. I bet Geoff would go for THAT! Can you imagine the riot going on in some thread... LOL

Some folks just crave attention and confrontation.

Yeah, put the inmates in charge of moderating the threads. Nothing can go wrong with that idea. 

Like this possibility and see a variant possible: The OP would be allowed to flag the post as a "Suspicious" one for any reason and therefore those who are new or unaware of the kind of background treachery going on would be warned. Keep the ideas coming, E.

I wonder if allowing the OP of a thread to delete (no changing, not cutting a few words, total delete of a response, anytime, just by the OP of a thread ,and naturally Audiogon.) For anyone responding to the thread. It sure would raise some hackles, but I would love to be able to take out things that are just nonsense to a thread I started.This would raise the standard for a LOT of threads, where folks go off topic, rant, and generally create chaos.It also might start wars, where folks delete others tit for tat.. But I think it would be GREAT.I am sure it would take a big revision in the background program?

Elizabeth, here here! Oh, and don’t feed the trolls. 

@elizabeth and @sbank (how are things, Spence?) make some good points, and show why we need this thread.

I’ve always strongly opposed censorship. But at this point, I’m ready to switch sides. Along those lines, I would implement cutting off someone’s participation in a thread (yes, only that thread, specifically) sort of like getting thrown out of a game, after making the same point repeatedly (3X?), to the point of the discussion getting stuck. That’s obviously open to judgment, and some will feel they’ve gotten hit unfairly. But what we currently have has poisoned the environment, in my opinion. As prime example, fuse threads seem to devolve into a never-ending back and forth by the same handful of people on both sides making the same point over and over and over and over and over again, with perhaps a little extra insult thrown in over time.

Likewise, I know one member who got hit with a 30 day suspension from participation in the threads, without doing anything that seemed especially egregious or out of the ordinary. I could name several others who regularly act in a far worse manner, and should get hit with the same sentence, so what is Audiogon waiting for?

All good in principle, but human nature seems to override the best laid plans....
I can take fair argument if it is done thoughtfully, and in the process, contributes to the knowledge base. Nobody knows everything-- that's the reason why these fora have value--aside from answering direct questions posed by an OP--
Some of the topics are never going to result in consensus, but one can argue- in the reasoned sense of discourse- without sniping or rancor-- as in arguments that are simply squabble. 

+1 @elizabeth,

As nice as the suggestion is, rules of civility on a forum like this is like having someone come down off a mountain with some commandments.
Great in theory but not in practice.

I've pointedly stated how nice it would be for those who love to argue to just go a start a thread with their like minded ilk and have at it, deriding the rest of us. I think it made it to almost one page and then it died out of lack of interest. There's only so much back and knee slapping a small group can endure before they tire of each other.

They need to interject, to impose their will when not asked for because of the nature of this venue. Anonymity is an essential aspect of their condition and it's rewarding and strengthening every time they do it.

Alas, Elizabeth, I think you regard some here too highly. 😄

All the best,
Nonoise

I'm an audio enthusiast. When I find a product that works well in my system, especially if it performs beyond its price point, I like sharing the information. I don't have a company. I don't sell audio products. I'm retired and love to listen to good music. I have many friends who do the same. Therefore, I will post on these forums as I see fit. Thank you ...

Frank

Response in print, in forums, is generally a case of motivation to do so, which is by nature --- based in emotions.

Furor and response are tightly linked.

Where emotions are motivation, reason... is in shadow. Where reason is a second and third rate victim dragged behind the prime bodily survival motivators of fear and desire.

Note to self: All reason is passed through primary emotional/survival filters before it is noted as conscious thought in a human mind. It is how we are wired, from the hindbrain on up. All communication between (and in) self and other is filtered by this primary system.

Further note to self: The human brain is not designed to think. It is designed to solve a problem in immediacy and then go back to rest mode immediately. The brain can think, and reason, yes, but it is energetically expensive, and nature conserves.

Humans are designed to think, solve in immediacy and then retreat to ’no thought’, until immediacy calls again. Note that immediacy is provided by prime motivators of fear and desire.

This is neurology and psychology class 101 stuff....and the stats show that 97% of us don’t think. We just react --and solve in immediacy.

If that is not sobering, I don’t know what is.

So, responses are by nature emotional, and the review of the proffered response is emotional... and....no one is thinking.

Yeah, that means you, dear reader. The 100% of you who think you’re an exception......you don’t get a 3% pass card. Another psych class 101 fact point.

You’ll all (including me) self filter yourself to being perfect. Which is absolutely untrue by any measure.

I’ve been here like forever. My company is Machina Dynamica, for you newcomers who might not know. Advanced audio concepts.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artifical Atoms Right!

There's never enough @elizabeth around here.

Another suggestion is to avoid hijacking a thread and turning it into a debate on another topic...especially the old debates that are near impossible to resolve(e.g. analog vs. digital).

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with others here, as long as its done with respect and on topic. 

More to the point of your last question, 2 things that would make this a happier place for me are:

Eliminating strong recommendations of gear that posters haven't listened to and they don't make that clear in their post. It's a disservice to all when someone on page 3 of the thread finally admits, "no I haven't heard it, but Eargasm Monthly gave it a great review". OTOH, nothing wrong w/ "Read a great review of X, maybe thats worth researching".

The other thing is posts by those w/commercial interests who don't fully disclose. The moderators here shouldn't tolerate it; it's a serious credibility issue. Manufs & dealers who do it don't deserve your money. When I've called out a few for the practice, some have defended by saying, "I post here all the time, everyone should know I am in the business". That is weak. Mods should implement "auto-signatures" for every commercial poster to state their business and title in the signature of every post.
Cheers,
Spencer