Guys, I hate to switch gears but I bought some Thiel CS3.6s on Audiogon about 5 years and recently asked the manufacturer when mine were made based on their serial numbers. They say 1996....20 years old. They sound terrific, but is there something that could be updated or upgraded to bring these closer to "new" but "broken-in" sound? I'm very happy with what I have, but you never know what you're missing without hearing it. If there is a different discussion thread for this, please let me know.
Showing 50 responses by jonandfamily
oblgny.....I totally agree with you about being nervous about any changes, because I have become very protective in preserving what I have and uneasy about potentially loosing it....like with normal wear from aging. As I test more speakers, I have become increasingly aware of just how musically engaging my Thiels are. I recently bought and sold some much more expensive Revel Ultima2 speakers after only having them for about 2 months. They were touted as having all the attributes that I like about the Thiels, but it was obvious from my first listening session that my Thiels would be back.The Thiels just seem to make the whole listening room come alive, while all the other speakers I've tried just seems to project sound from between the speakers. I'm currently using them with the Audio Research Ref 150 and Ref5 with a tube modified Modwright Oppo 105. I have been told numerous times that 150 watts of tube amplification is not enough juice for the Thiels, but for my listening volumes, it seems like plenty. jafant.....I'm glad that I found this thread and will "follow this discussion" with email notifications. Jon (Birmingham, AL) |
dlcockrum.....I don't mean to propagate sidetracking the Thiel thread either, but I could use your experience with Synergistic cables since I do believe they are good match for Thiel speakers. If I need to move this to private messaging, please let me know. I have settled into mostly SR cables and I'm curious if you have any insight on any recommended changes, because I'm so happy with the sound, I'm afraid to make any changes. Between my Thiel CS 3.6 and my Audio Research Reference 150 amp, I have SR Tesla Accelerators. Between the AR Reference 150 and the AR Reference 5 preamp (and from the preamp to my Modwright tube modified Oppo BDP105), I have SR Tesla Accelerator XLR interconnects. I have SR AC Master Coupler X-series power cords on the Oppo BDP105 and its Modwright PS 9.0 power supply. Both amp and preamp are powered with SR Tesla T3s (UHC T3 on the amp). Everything is plugged into PS Audio P5 Powerplant which is powered with PS Audio AC12 power cord. I have been thinking of upgrading to a preowned set of SR Apex speaker cables for the Thiels, but I'm having second thoughts based on your post. Any thoughts would be welcomed. Jon |
I have really enjoyed following this discussion over the last year. I have been more passive with opinions because I recognize that all of our senses are clearly subjective. oblgny... I'm reflecting back on our exchange on this discussion 8/31/16. Since I have owned 3.6s for over 6 years and have never heard the 3.5s, I will be waiting in anticipation about your opinions regarding the comparison. The only change that I have made the last couple of years is selling my Audio Research Ref 5 and buying a preowned 5SE in December here on Audiogon. I'm still very content with my current setup. prof... I also followed your discussion with the change from 3.6s to 3.7s, since we have a lot in common. I also have a fairly small listening room and sit about 7-8 feet from my 3.6s. I have been contemplating moving to the 3.7s myself if I can find a pair close-by and affordable. Prof, are there any attributes of the 3.6s you miss that you're not getting with the 3.7s? Thanks, Jon p.s By the way, there is a pair of 3.6s for sale locally here on Craigslist in Birmingham allegedly from an original owner, but without the boxes. https://bham.craigslist.org/ele/6053373347.html |
Thanks for your input prof. I'm not sure why I thought you had the CS3.6s. I'm curious why you preferred the CS6 over the 3.6s...do you think it was the coaxial design? I have always wondered what the CS7.2 would sound like with my setup. Jafant, check my virtual system. I use older Synergistic Research cables and I'm satisfied with them. I love tubes with the Thiels. I can listen for hours with zero fatigue. |
oblgny, Your first impressions of the 3.6s sound just like my first and last impression. I'm a bass player (1977 Fender Jazz Bass) and I have never heard a speaker or speaker/sub combo that gave me such a "real" and uncolored bass sound while maintaining the precise mids and highs. You say the sound is in front of the speakers. I have my 3.6s about 3 feet from the back wall faced straight forward without toe-in and I hear the sound either at or behind the speakers. Great deal for that price. I got mine for $1200, but was lucky to have an Audiogon seller only 90 miles away so no shipping. It still amazes me that I spent less on my speakers than any other component in my setup. I look forward to more impressions over the next days! |
miyu... I agree with oblgny. The AR/Thiel setup is NOT a mismatch. I think there is a misconception that lower powered tube amps can't drive the Thiels. I have driven my 3.6s with the AR VSi60 and the Ref75 with excellent results. I am now very satisfied with my AR Ref150. I have ventured into solid state Bryston and Krell amps, but I have come back to the tubes and I have no plans to change. Man, I had some good listening last night...Nicky, Ruth and Heather's voices on The Wailin' Jennys "40 Days" album is absolutely stunning. Their voices are so distinctly focused on the soundstage and blend so seamlessly! |
Wow prof, "Audio Research preamps (slightly bleached tone to me)". To me, bleached means smeared with attenuation of dynamics. If anything, my AR Ref system tends to exaggerate details and dynamics, compared to live music. I just assumed that it was the recording process and my Thiel CS3.6s, but maybe it is simply the synergy between the components. Maybe I just lucked into the right combination. Unfortunately, I have limited ability to listen to real world setups and my only comparisons comes from my few visits to audio shops while traveling, reading Stereophile and forums like this. I really need some local friends that have my same audio tastes. Jafant, we need to form an Alabama audiophile society! |
There was a pair of 3.7s Les Paul Edition speakers on USAUDIOMART a few months ago for sale for $6800. The ad expired (never said sold). Does anyone know if these ever sold? They were a nice looking pair. I can no longer respond to the seller, since they're expired. If you go to the website and enter 649304777 in the search line, you can see them. |
There was a pair of 3.7s Les Paul Edition speakers on usaudiomart a few months ago for sale for $6800. The ad expired (never said sold). Does anyone know if these ever sold. They were a nice looking pair. I can no longer repond to the seller, since they're expired. If you go to the website and enter 649304777 in the search line, you can see them. |
corvette01, I was seriously thinking of making an offer on your 3.7s back when I first saw these, but I just couldn't justify the extra money for the Les Paul edition. At the time, I was about to buy a pair of 3.7s in Atlanta (driving distance for me) for a couple of thousand dollars less, but they sold during my indecisiveness. I really want to hear a side-by-side comparison of my 3.6s with the 3.7s in my listening room. oblgny, I am tempted to give the X250 a try in my setup, but I think that I will keep money on reserve just in case a pair of 3.7s (or possibly 2.7s after reading prof's helpful input) show up on the market. The X250 is 13 years old and amps over 10 years old always concerns me. There are numerous used components that I have bought and sold after a short audition when they didn't meet expectations, only to loose the cost of shipping. That is one of the benefits of buying used, but I sometimes wonder if age related sound degradation is why expectations were not met. |
Corvette01, I started my obscession in 2011 when my son gave me a subscription for Stereophile in a school fundraiser. Little did he and my wife know what they started. I purchased an Exposure integrated amp and CD player based on Stereophile budget system recommendations and shortly after, made my first Audiogon purchase, my current Thiel CS3.6s. Since then, I have gone through numerous amps, preamps, sources, and cables....most of which were purchased preowned on Audiogon. Several points to consider. The Thiels have stayed in my setup. All other speakers were bought and sold after a short time. Also, buying and selling preowned is much more efficient. The Thiels have sounded good with every setup including the little Exposure 2010S integrated at low-medium volume. Once I decided I liked the sound of Audio Research tube amps/preamps, I was able to slowly step up the ladder by selling, then buying better preowned components (I previously tried high powered Krell and Bryston). I agree with the others. I have received a lot of advise based on reading reviews, but mostly on forums like this, and my decisions have been based on listening in my listening rooms under ideal conditions...i.e at night, with a dim room and a glass of wine ;) |
There is a pair of Thiel CS1.0s locally for sale priced at $225 that are reportedly in good condition. I'm thinking of purchasing these just to have a pair of vintage, early Jim Thiel designed speakers maybe for a second system. Does anybody here have experience with these? Unsound, you have mentioned them in some of your comments. What do I need to look out for before making the purchase, other than the obvious? (surrounds, etc) . Thanks, Jon |
Summer is going well. Working hard but finding time to play and listen. I never see Thiels for sale locally and now there is a CS1.2 pair asking $550 in addition to the CS1 for $225. I'm really curious to see how these sound in my reference setup compared to my CS3.6s that I have now and the SCS4s that originally sparked my interest in Thiels years ago. |
Hello all, I ended up buying a near perfect pair of Thiel CS-1.2s locally, just because they were such a good price. I first connected them to my main system and instantly was impressed with familiar Thiel sound. Obviously, they are missing the 25-50 Hz warm punch of my CS-3.6s but I am amazed that they can created such a clear and concise soundstage like their bigger bothers. I then replaced my old M&K speakers with the CS-1.2s in my second system. Still amazed...a definite upgrade. The second system is an Exposure Electronics 2010 integrated and CD. I know I could use more current, but as a second sytem it's adequate. You can look at my virtual systems for details. I took a picture of the 3.6s next to the 1.2s for comparison. A 'Mini-Me' for sure. My question: Does this group have a suggestion for a powered subwoofer to cover the 25-50 Hz that is missing, preferably preowned on Audiogon without spending more than I have in the whole system? And, how to connect...speaker wires or RCA out of Pre-out? I have never used a sub in a 2 channel setup. Thanks, Jon |
oblgny... I am perplexed that a small REL T7 subwoofer with a low frequency extension to 30Hz +/- 6db would be enough "to make me keeop the 3.6" which has a low frequency extension to 27Hz +/- 3dB. Where do you crossover? Do you think that by removing those few low Hz from the Thiels cleans up the bass response? Or do you think that your ampification just didn't have the juice to drive those lower Hz? Being a bass guitar player, I love the weight of the bass with my 3.6s and the Audio Research Ref150, but I'm always looking to clean up the timbre/transients of the individual notes. Thanks, Jon |
Man, I almost had the Thiel 3.7s that were listed recently (type
lis8790g in Audiogon search). We were working on how to get them from Tulsa to Birmingham before I made my final offer, but he sold them on eBay before we finalized. He told me that he sold them for $2500 to a guy in New York who was having them crated and freighted for $953. Even though they were my least favorite color- matte black, I would have driven the 1300 mile round trip for $2500. I guess if I were sure that I would like the 3.7s more than my 3.6s, then I would jump on these deals quicker. |
We have a couple of new Thiel owners, so if you haven't seen this site, its a good start for understanding legacy Thiels. https://coherentsource.wordpress.com/ |
prof, I negotiated an unbelievable deal on a new pair of Ultima Salon2s from HiFi Buys in Nashville. Believe me, I read all the reviews and I listened to them in their Nashville store with some high powered McIntosh gear in a large listening room. When I put them in my smaller listening room with my tube gear, they lacked the huge soundstage I was accustomed to, they lacked the Thiel warm bass that seems to penetrate my viscera, and they were simply fatiguing to listen for more than an hour. I really did a bunch of repositioning and changing around my acoustic treatments, but I just never found that magic. Since I have a tough time connecting my right brain feelings to my left brain verbalization, the best way to express my thoughts are like you say.....realism and believability. Obviously, there are too many variables to make a blanket assumption including the fact that I probably never gave them time for a full break-in and maybe didn't have adequate power, but the bottom line is that I didn't have the patience or money to rebuild my entire system around the Revels. My original deal was so good that I was able to easily sell them without a loss. The process did make me more content with my Thiels. All I want to do now is to try out other Jim Thiel speakers to see if my 3.6s are my favorite. |
arniespin, You deserve these because I did what I have done before....hesitated because of the distance between me and the 3.7s. I did not want to chance the shipping. I could not convince my wife that we needed a vacation to Tulsa. I thought I had worked out a deal for him to personally deliver them to Birmingham for 4K, but I think my extra money wasn't worth the 22 hour round trip. I was lucky to find a mint pair of CS3.6s for $1.2K about 100 miles from me 5 years ago, and I have bought and sold several speakers since then never bettering the magic I get with my Thiels. This included the Revel Ultima Salon2s which lasted only about a month before I sold them. Boy, were they a disappointment, and I had to crate and freight those across the country over 2000 miles. Yes, welcome arniespin and I look forward to hearing your impressions of the 3.7s. Also, I think most of us would like to hear about the rest of your system. Maybe you can add your "virtual system" to Audiogon. Cheers, Jon |
This might not be the correct thread to ask, but I trust us reasonable Thiel owners. I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the tweaks out there, including some of those made by my favorite cable company, Synergistic Research. I can't keep from coming across so many praises for their fuses however, and I see that Scott Walker Audio is offering 3 blue fuses for the price of 2 during the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Do any of the followers of this thread use aftermarket fuses? I do periodically remove all non-soldered connections including plugs, tubes, and fuses and reconnect, and I have even used Kontak Audio Cleaning Fluid. Are theses audiophile fuses better than either ensuring the contacts are free of oxidation or simply replacing with new commercial grade fuses? Thanks, Jon |
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-thiel-audio-cs-3-7-2017-10-24-speakers Asking price a little steep for my budget. |
David, I have tried a class A Krell 402 paired with an ARC Ref5 tubed preamp and my Thiel CS3.6s, but preferred my current ARC Ref5SE - Ref 150 combination. It was probably a synergy problem with preamp-amp, but instead of trying a different preamp, I went to a better tubed amp. Here are a few albums that get regular play on my main system due to quality music and recording, IMO: Beck - Morning Phase Phish - Fuego Eagles - Long Road Out Of Eden Shelby Lynne - I Am Shelby Lynne Wilco - The Whole Love Suzanne Vega - Nine Objects of Desire Robert Plant and Alison Krauss - Raising Sand Rickie Lee Jones - Traffic From Paradise SOME QUALITY DEEPER CUTS: The Wailin' Jennys - 40 Days Tift Merritt - Bramble Rose The Greencards - Fascination Kim Richey - Rise |
Arvin, I have been puzzled by prof's impression of AR tube amps, but I speak with very little experience with other tube amps since the only tube gear I have owned have been AR. I have moved up the AR chain starting with an integrated VSi60, then to a Ref110, Ref75, Ref150, Ref150SE then back to the Ref 150 (Ref 5SE preamp and Modwright Oppo BDP105). I can compare with other solid state amps including Krell, Exposure and Bryston. To my ears, tubes bring out the best in my Thiel CS3.6s. Unless you listen to music over 95dB, I would encourage you to find a preowned VSi60 and listen with your Thiels. If you like the quality of sound but want it louder with more punch, then slowly upgrade the AR chain. If not, you can usually sell for the same price you purchased on Audiogon at the cost of shipping. These have been selling for as low as $2500 and there are 2 I see on usaudiomart now. Jon |
Guys, the past few days have been an emotional roller coaster for us Thiel owners, but recent postings by Tom Thiel and reports from Rob Gillum are quite reassuring, to say the least. I would definitely be interested in hearing from anyone who has done any upgrading, especially with my models - CS3.6s or CS1.2s. |
Folks, prof, I would look carefully at those Thiels listed. I think the reason they have been on the market for so long is their condition. I do not think the seller is being straight forward about it. Look carefully and zoom, it appears there is damage to the passive radiators and if he is not being honest about that, I wonder what else is wrong with them. |
This is very encouraging. I am very interested in the upgrade kit for my CS3.6s and possibly my CS1.2s. I have a little experience in soldering, and I certainly do not want to risk either causing damage or risk degrading the sound quality. I look forward to hearing more information on the process of upgrading. |
I have chosen the CS3.6 for its more sophisticated proprietary drivers and more accessible solutions.Interested in internal upgrades for my CS3.6s. Tom would like input from the larger community as he finalizes his plans. So, please respond “yea” or “nay” regarding outboard crossovers so that he can gauge interest.Not so interested at this time but might be in the future. |
Very tough to narrow down. On my Thiel CS3.6/tubes home system I prefer to listen to albums that combine artists that I like to see live but add the magic of good studio engineering. With Tidal, it sure is easy to check out some of the previous recommendations. Eagles- Long Road Out Of Eden (check out cut 9 "Fast Company") Shelby Lynne- I Am Shelby Lynne (check out cut 3 "Life is Bad") Martin Sexton- The American (check out cut 7 "Where It Begins") The Wailin' Jennys- 40 Days (check out cover song cut 7 "Old Man") Robert Plant, Alison Krauss- Raising Sand (Check out cut 2 "Killing the Blues") Here is the link to the Tidal playlist: https://tidal.com/playlist/fa778f01-dbaa-487e-98c9-958b412bf346 Thumbs up on the Kim Richey album. I have seen her live several times and love the Rise album. |
frozentundra, It looks like you are using Thiel SCS4Ts with a subwoofer. Have you tried the more full range Thiel speakers without a subwoofer? I came back to my Thiels after having Revel Ultima Salon2s in my system for a short while. To my ears and in my setup, they didn't come close to my 20 year old Thiel CS3.6s. The most obvious shortcomings were with timbre, bass impact and soundstage. Possibly it was bad synergy with my Audio Research Ref tube gear, but my wife totally and independantly agreed with me (she has no musical background and I don't consider her an audiophile, but she trusts her senses). One day, I would really like to audition the Pass Labs classs A amps in place of my ARC Ref 150, but I don't have any dealers near me. Keep us updated on your adventures. Jon |
I thought about purchasing this PX02 Thiel passive XO that is made for my CS3.6 (just in case) or a CS6, but I'm so happy with my bass that I can never invision me needing a sub. Does anyone know what it would take to change this PX02 to work for a CS2.4? https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649444380-thiel-passive-crossover-px02/ |
I'm very happy with mid level Synergistic Research Cables, both the Tesla T3 power cables and Tesla Accelerator speaker cables. I have purchased these on the preowned market for reasonable prices. Also, I might need a little electrical physics explanation about the current abilities of my ARC Ref150 tube amp. Specs list power supply energy storage as 1040 joules but max current is not listed. This appears to be less than 10 amps driving my CS3.6s with a minimum impedance of 2.3 ohms (below 2.5 over a wide frequency range). I have used much higher current solid state Krells and Bryston amps with my Thiels, but much prefer tubes at my comfortable listening volume. I can only hear distortion/compression above comfortable listening levels. Also, can someone explain why power specs for tube amps are listed the same for different loads? Power output with my ARC amp (and other tube amps I've checked) is the same for 8 and 4 ohms. This really goes against all the talk here about amps that double down. Thanks, Jon |