Hi jafant,
I have a pair of Thiel CS2.4SE (the last pair made actually). This was my upgrade from a pair of Thiel CS2 I bought in 1988. I had been looking for a new pair of speakers for about 5 years, but nothing seemed to outperform (to my ears) the 2's until the 2.4's came along.
FYI, about the SE run: they only made 91 of the anticipated 150 pairs. I got this info from Lana Ruth directly. The run was cancelled during the time of flux in the company, due to the restructuring, and a lack of interest from their declining dealer network.
I'm very happy with the speakers. These will probably be the last pair I own, unless I win the lotto and seek out a pair of 3.7's (to complement the new music room)...
Cheers,
Warren
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Like I said: lotto = new music room. The speakers are 181 and 182. So yours are the 89th pair (pretty much the end of the line).
If we must talk about the system details, here’s the analogue chain:
Ortofon Cadenza Red > SME Series IV > Oracle Delphi > Graham Slee Reflex C > Kimber Hero > Parasound P7 > Kimber Hero XLR > Mark Levinson No.27 > Monster Powerline 2 > Thiel CS 2.4SE
Oppo BDP-95 (7.1 analogue out)
Apple Mac Mini
Parasound A52 (5-ch.)
Parasound Zhd (HDMI switch)
Thiel MCS1 (centre)
PSB Imagine Mini (surrounds)
SVS SB12-NSD (subs)
Cheers,
Warren |
Thanks.
The Kimber Hero is fine. The system ran with original Monster M1000 (the grey ones from 1989) throughout until i needed to buy more when I went to 7.1. Then i just switched it up. As long as the cables are well-insulated from interference, I'm cool with them. I don't get too caught up in the minutia unless something sounds "wrong". The last time that happened, was with the M1000 Mk. II. It did something different, and less convincing, so i bought up all the previous version I needed.
Cheers,
Warren |
@jafant So what are your go-to cables with the Thiels, out of curiosity?
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Dan,
I have found that the PSB Imagine Minis mate quite well with my 2.4s in my room. They have their own adjustable wall bracket too.
Cheers,
Warren |
So I swapped out the Monster Powerline 2 speaker cables, to the CS2.4SE, for a shorter pair of Kimber 8TC; more out of curiosity than anything.
First impression: everything sounded the same tonally. No difference in the soundstage either. It was the system that I’ve listened to for years.
Then I noticed something: I heard the precise words in some background vocals on an Indigo Girls’ track. I never knew exactly what the lyrics were before; just that the harmonies were nice. Then I was surprised at some rightish-channel strumming that kicked in part-way through another song. I never noticed it before, despite the years of listening to the piece.
All-in-all I’d say that the 8TC has added a level of detail that I hadn’t observed before. Not a huge difference, but enough to sit up and take notice. And be delighted...
Cheers,
Warren
P.S. I’ve also added a short run of 8TC to the MCS1 centre channel too. |
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I was waiting to hear what unsound would say...
For me, going from the CS2 to the CS2.4 was a no-brainer. There was enough bass extension and tightness to make the jump.
The 3.5 (or 3.6) is tricker because of their aforementioned attributes. I'm not convinced I'd hear the difference at the top end, so it'd come down to the aesthetics of the slimmer design, smaller footprint, and refined craftsmanship.
Oh, and having the cable connections at the back, instead of the bottom! |
Does anybody know what the theoretical frequency range capability is of the 3.7's coax? Rob G. told me 3k, but I think he misunderstood my query, and just gave me the mechanical crossover point. i.e how low can it actually go?
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jafant,
i know that Thiel crossed it over at 300 Hz and sloped it off accordingly to around 70 Hz. But i was really wondering about the physical capability of the driver. i.e. If you were to create a mini monitor with it, alone, what could be the usable response as a "full range" driver? |
I've always assumed the recommended power was based on an 8 ohm load since that's how amps are normally advertised. It was up to you and your dealer to recognize that you needed one that doubled down at 4 and 2 ohm. |
Does anybody know whether Jim Thiel ever played around with the idea of an active loudspeaker?
I've wondered about frankensteining something in the CS6 form factor, consisting of the CS3.7's crossover, coax, and woofer; and the PX02, SS3's amp and 12" subwoofer replacing the passive radiator.
Goofy i know, but was thinking that if Vandersteen was actively doing it (pardon the pun), whether it would work... |
So not only is it unwise; it's unsound. BA DUM PAH!
Thank you. I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your bar staff. |
@robinbarbour Understood. What I was getting at was the form factor of the CS6. Obviously it would need a sealed chamber at the bottom to isolate the 12" sub from the 10".
I was also thinking about the crossover considerations that Thiel already took into account when developing the specific PX02 that could marry an SS3 to a CS6 (if it even exists). Maybe start from there, and figure out if freqs are augmented rather than crossed over, and the impact that has on the main driver and its radiator. |
Ugh. Unsubbing from this thread. |
@robinbarbour
Have you considered changes in temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure affecting the sound waves? It's measurable and audible. Could be that simple. |
You can read about my introduction to Thiel in my blog The Coherent Source . BTW, I have posted a few pictures in the Virtual Systems section, in case you were interested. |
Yes I sold the BDP-09 last year. Pioneer stopped updating the firmware to support newer Blu-ray authoring schemes. I felt it was sonically and visually superior to the Oppo but the load times and sketchy BD-Live support made the parting, amicable.
Cables: Mostly Kimber Hero interconnects and 8TC speaker wire. Couple of pairs of Monster M1000 MK I interconnects. |
There were major problems with disc transport failure, which many owners had to replace. I replaced it, the motherboard, flash memory, and the power supply within the first year. I think the only original part left was the chassis.
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Ooooh, somebody's selling a pair of SE's on here. Curious that the serial number (191/300) is higher than Thiel Audio told me the run terminated at, a few years ago. Guess you can't believe everything you're told... |
@marqmike I wouldn't worry about the serial number honestly. There are a few other distinguishing characteristics of the SE's that can be seen in the photos: the mounting hardware, the bevel behind the baffle, the veneer and finish.
I am writing a blog post the SE's so I had already posed the question of exact number to Rob. Seems as though Lana's personal email doesn't work anymore. I don't know if she's still there in KY.
Don't be surprised if there isn't a COA either. I didn't get one. The company was in such a state of flux at the time the last pairs were built, a lot of things slipped through the cracks.
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@schubert Well, I guess if you consider a Jim Thiel-designed speaker to be an extremely accurate transducer of an input signal, then they should be fine with any kind of music, with consideration given to a particular model's frequency limitation.
I chose Thiels decades ago, without knowing any of the technical aspects of the speakers, at the time. They were the most convincing with recorded acoustic instruments. e.g. guitars, violins, and piano. They just sounded "right", where everything else was "not quite right". |
@prof @jafant Don't believe I'm doxing him, but Larry was Director of Sales, and Marketing at Thiel Audio ~2000. He's mentioned the positions in other threads on here.
With respect to the 2.4SE numbers: according to Rob's memory they made ~200 of the 300 run. The paperwork is lost which is why the number is inexact. Sounds like everything went to hell, with the closing of the original Lexington, KY location, and the laid-off staff walking out unceremoniously. Also, it doesn't appear the speakers were "buttoned up" sequentially either, which could lead to the situation of my pair (181, 182) being the last to leave the factory and yet, not be the highest numbered ones.
I wonder if it's worth putting together a Signature Edition Registry, to see what numbers are out there, and their location?
Cheers,
Warren |
@dnanstad a refurbed Levinson No.23.5?
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So all this talk about room size, and placement theory, had me experimenting and moving the 2.4s around again. The room has absorption panels on the side walls, corner bass traps on the front wall, and diffraction on the back wall. Room is 13'6"W x 23'L x 8'H.
I ended up with them 57" from the front wall, 44" from the side wall, and 75" apart. Listening position is 100". All measurements are from the centre of the THIEL name plate.
So I lost none of the soundstage width (which often goes wall-to-wall), gained some depth, and a little tighter focus in the vocals.
I'm somewhat amused by this, because it seemed to fly in the face of the wisdom of most literature recommending an 8' minimum distance between speakers. I've been able to free myself of the head in a vice behaviour, as a result.
I've been running through my usual test tracks and have been pleased with the results. Painter's tape markings have been repositioned accordingly.
My mileage has been varied...
Cheers,
Warren |
Hi unsound,
It wasn't a serious consideration because the room doubles as a home theatre too; where we often add a second row of seats.
There's a structural telepost (masqueraded by a 16" wooden column) that interferes as well so it was better to have it off to the one side rather than directly in the middle of the seating.
Anyway I was just playing around with the Cardas golden ratios and such, and seemed to have reached a good sonic solution for 2-ch.
That reminds me to build my next house with floor trusses; and free up the space for even more flexibility...
Cheers,
Warren |
Salutations! on this 4th of July weekend. It's actually Canada Day (150+) today. I put the "plus" to acknowledge the indigenous contribution. Time to fire up the Rush... and Anne Murray. Cheers, Warren |
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So Thiel Audio has become a SONOS clone? LOL. |
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@vair68robert
Measured from the centre of the Thiel logo at the base of the 2.4SE speaker:
41" to side wall
55" from front wall
80" apart
100" to listening position
Recordings:
Pierre Bensusan "Awali"
Indigo Girls "Let It Be Me"
Olivia Newton-John "Warm and Tender"
Rush "Red Barchetta"
Deadmau5 "Sophie Needs a Ladder"
Rammstein "Los"
Warren |
Warren,
your one of the lucky few that own a 2.4SE model and it sounds like judging from your measurements you must have a large room.
Have you tried moving them out a little further apart ?
Only the Indigo Girls song is familiar to me , buy coincidence
I listened to thier second album earlier , it’s Friday Folk for me.
I don’t have any of the albums by other artist you mentioned. The room is about 14’ x 23’. You can see it in the Virtual Systems. Oh I’ve played with the positioning of these, and my previous Thiels, extensively. I could always get decent soundstage and imaging regardless; but was never convinced by the vocals. i.e. the wider spacing always made it seem like the singer’s mouth was a foot wide, and accompanying guitars were 6 feet long. I reassessed the positioning by using the Cardas placement equation as a starting point, and readjusted from there--4" farther apart, and 2" closer to the front wall. So yes, the dimensions break the golden triangle, but it seems to work, and impresses me with the most realistic aural output. Soundstage width is never a problem, as these speakers (unlike most others I’ve heard) push right to the side walls when appropriate. As for the music: Pierre Bensusan - Awali From the album Wu Wei, the French version of this Folk/New Age song features solo acoustic guitar and bass, with layered vocal tracks and percussive sounds. I use it to test image size, voice distinction, and Pierre’s tenor articulation (he has a slight speech impediment). Olivia Newton-John - Warm and Tender This is a relatively unknown album of nursery rhymes and light AOR songs from the late 80’s. She uses her softer breath voice exclusively on it. It’s really close-miced, and sounds like she’s singing 2 feet from your face. Rush - Red Barchetta From 1981’s classic rock album, Moving Pictures, the headphonic quality of the bridge pushes the limit of soundstage width. "Wind in my hair..." Deadmau5 - Sofi Needs a Ladder This is an EDM (electronic dance music) track that can punish a system with the punchiness of the bass and sibilance in the vocals. There’s a lot going on here with its 3D density, and nontraditional instrument placement. Not for everyone. Rammstein - Los The original version from Reise Reise is my preferred test track of a audio store’s tolerance for continuous rolling bass notes and German industrial metal. This tells me a lot about room interaction and whether there’s enough absorption and decay occurring. Also, there’s rim ringing from the snare drum hits that many speakers miss. Plus there’s harmonica! Cheers, Warren |
i never imagine parasound will do this great with thiel . any of u using parasound ? i currently using bryston 7bst at this moment .
by the way i blown my mcs1 tweeter again . thinking not to do it at thiel because it just contiune to blown .sad....... I use a Parasound A52 5-ch. amp to power 4 PSB Imagine Minis (surrounds) and a Thiel MCS1 (centre). As for the blown tweeter (again), if you've fried the voice coil, that sounds like a clipping problem in the amp—if I understand the physics correctly. I had the simular problem with the center stage ,
toe-in solved my problem , it took listening to classical music to fine tune it, the speakers are pointing about 16 inches out from each ear.
Speaker placement and toe-in are personal and a great discussion .
the Prof has his speakers 8 feet apart and sits less than 7 feet away
and no toe-in,
you have yours 80 inches and sit 100 inches away , toe-in ?
I've tried to get into Rush , a few songs maybe but I just can't.
You have created an interest in Pierre Bensusan after listening to allmusic's snippets of him, never heard of him before so thanks. I had a very insightful workshop with Pierre, on right-hand guitar technique, decades ago. To me, Rush only sounded good (particularly the drums) when Terry Brown was producing. Basically, anything before Signals (1982). The tweeters are pointing ~30 inches outside each ear, so maybe ~5-10 degrees toe-in? Cannot be bothered to do the trigonometry. I started from the Cardas' room node formula and adjusted from there. I could incorporate the near field equilateral triangle as well, and move the seating closer, but then I'd be sitting too close to the projection screen (120" wide). Everything's a compromise. Cheers, Warren |
I looked at the pictures of your room ,
It looks like something out of a magazine , beautiful.
The Autograph wall is really something , COOL very COOL .
What is your favorite Rush album ? Do you favor the Mercury pressings over the Anthem ?
Is there a greatest hits you recommend ? Thanks Rob. There are autographs that go all the way upstairs that you don't see. My personal favourite is Permanent Waves (PW), with Moving Pictures a close second. Most of my LPs are the Anthem ones, and I've duplicated a number of them with the new 180g versions that came out this past year (Abby Road remasters?). I can't say I'm particularly impressed, but the vinyl is clean. I also have a copy of the Mobile Fidelity Labs' remastering of PW which I listen to often. I don't think I've heard a Mercury pressing. Probably the most unique one I have is Archives, which has a printing faux-pas of Bruce Springsteen's Born to Run as the inner gatefold. Looking at the compilation albums (of which I have none), I would probably go with either Chronicles or Gold. Cheers, Warren |
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