Jriggy OCD hifi guy is a nut, do you notice how he denigrates a product he hasn't heard, based on looking at pictures of it on the internet on a product that he doesn't sell nor has not persoanly tested? He also incorrectly rails against the power of the CPU when it says it is an Intel quad core, and yes it runs Roon with full DSP, the only thing it won't do is DSD 512. As per off the shelf motorboard it isn't, the entire motherboard is custom designed and built by Innuous. As per Mike or anyone else building a super computer with high end off the shelf parts that will challenge this again we call bull, how do we know because we have one at the shop the very same incrediblily well built high speced product: We sell a $15k music computer, which uses an Sotm USB card, an outboard plex power supply, aluminum case, extensive emi shielding and custom silver cables, with an Intel 7 and a lot of ram, the Zenith MK 2 sounded nearly as good, and the Mk III is in the same league. Notice that Mr Powell complains that the Innous device could be built for less money and that over priced servers are a scam we could easily say the same thing about his cabling: How about his Verastar cables and the prices he charges for them, gee we found silver foil going for From an Internet search for pure silver audio foil: Pure Silver Foil -> Thickness of 0.05 mm
-> Width of 30 mm
-> Cross section: 1.5 mm², resistance: 10.6 mΩ/m (at 20°C)
-> Purity at least 99.99 mass percent (4N)
-> Coarsely crystalline
-> Rolled surface
-> Cryo-treated
Price: €39.-/m from 10m: €36.-/m gee 36 euro a meter is about $40 for 3 feet so an eight foot pair of silver foil speaker foils should cost you about $100 for 2 2.5m lengths if you used 2 pieces per speaker cable you would still have a cost of $200 not $2,150.00 for an 8 foot pair of his speaker cables. therefore his speaker cables like the Grand Ilusion 2 which we found in a 2015 Six Moons Review showed a price of $2,100.00 for an eight foot pair quite a bit of mark up from the price of a high quality silver foil encased in a woven sleeve
By the same logic you can say that his Verrastar cables are a scam as well. The reality is we haven't heard them, and his cables may be really good, but you can't attack another manufacturer's product until you know all the facts and details about the kind of silver foil, the type of materials used construction variables, time and testing, and most importantly you have listened to in and compared it to other class leaders.
To even post a video without having the actual product in for evaluation is very unprofessional and wrong.
Dave and Troy
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I don’t wanna be the one to link...maybe just the one to drops a hint that there is a new vid out there from a certain HI-Fi Guy, Debunking the music server...specifically the ZENith.
Don’t shoot the messenger. |
Hi,
If you contact Bob at Rhapsody Audio in NY, he has done direct comparisons between the $20000 Aurender and the $9100 Rockna Wave Dream Net server and he prefers the Rockna server.
Personally we have done direct A/B comparisons of 75 different devices and we feel that Rockna is among the very best digital in the world. The Rockna WD Net has a built in reclocker is the most analogue sounding server we have tested.
Cheers,
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I've had the Antiopodes CX+EX combo for about a month -- my first exposure to their products. Simply spectacular, IMHO.
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Question on the Innuos or similar. Maybe this is for a different thread? but in the case where one is looking for just the endpoint what are the best alternatives to an Innuos? It would seem that a Innuos would be total overkill if looking for say just a ROON endpoint and or HQP NAA, no?.
Additionally, and in my case, I’m needing an NAA compatible device for HQP and thus my use of a microU, but going onto what Darko was stating in his Innuos review, he stated the Innuos is better than several streamers and endpoints, including the UltraRendu.
Now I take that with a grain of salt (too many variables) and his network is certainly different than my network, which could potentially have a significant influence overall.
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Possible hard-drive failure is one of the MAIN reasons I went with the Lumin streamer. Very full, rich sounding product.
I am sure the Innuos and the Aurender are fantastic...however I want to be able to replace the hard-drive myself and choose what size and brand hard-drive to use. Something to consider when buying these digital streaming products. Good Luck! |
Have the Innuos Zenith MKIII. Love it. You will not be disappointed.
Also, Innuos is developing a player app for their servers. I hear will give Roon a run for its money. No definitive release date. Hoping they might have a demo at Axpona. |
How about sound science music vault diamond classifies position in ranking |
Wouldn't do the swap myself at all. I would go through an Innuous dealer to make sure the upgrade doesn't mess up the OS.
Rugy please contact us we can find out the cost of the upgrade for you it is likely not to cost that much.
We sold a lot of SE so the unit may be from one of our clients.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Innuous dealer |
As far as I aware you should be able to change that ssd out yourselve as long as you buy a compatible 4tb ssd.
Whatever brand the present 2tb is just replace with same brand 4tb.
It should not be any more complicated than that unless Audiotroy knows different?
I did exactly same on my Auralic Aries, I just scanned the Auralic forums to see what make of drives was recommended and went with a Crucial unit. |
AudiotroyLooking at a used Innous SE mk2 but the hard drive is to small for the music that I presently have.
Can the SSD drive of a Innous SE be changed from a 2T to a 4T ?If so can it be done here or does it have to go back to Europe?Thanks,
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Pop you have a few choices:
1: Aurender No Roon, no native CD ripper, priced from $2700-$16k
2: Innous: Roon Server, CD Ripper, suberb sound quality from $1,200-$13k approx. The new Statement is one of the finest digital servers on the market today expensive but mind blowing
We sell a lot of the Zenith the $4300 model because of its fantastic sound qality and price point.
3: Nad M50.2 good streamer with back up raid drive but not a huge upgrade from a Vault.
4: Lumin U series from $2200 to $6k fantastic OS, no native storrage very good sound quality if you want to run Roon you need another device
5: Auralic Streamers: good OS, good sound quality, does not hold Roon so again you need another device.
6: Antipods and Wolf: we don't know enough about these units to make a good assesment.
7: Baetis servers: can be expensive very good sound quality Roon servers and CD rippers
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Innous, Batis, NAD, Lumin dealers
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Thanks for response, I’m fan of accuphase nothing will change my mind, but what streamer would you recommend for accuphase dac , I’m using vault 2 right now.???? Thanks |
Thanks Nyev, we do a lot of evaluation on a lot of different products and tweeks.
Roon supplanted Jriver as being a better more user friendly platform with a supeior user experience.
The nice thing about Roon is that the product keeps on evolving, hopefully that will gain Spotify, we would also love to see XM radio intergration one can only hope.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
We have sold both Esoteric and DCS in the past.
Personally we feel that Esoteric's products are very good but are being surpassed by things like Lumin's awesome X1 which is a reference class streamer/dac which is $6k cheaper then the Esoteric version and the Lumin still sounds better.
DCS is a sound which some people like others don't they don't sound particularly liquid the DCS sound is clean, quick, and very detailed.
In terms of Dac's we are very fond of the Aqua Hifi Dacs for a number of reasons:
1: They are very liquid and analog like
2: They are the most up-gradable dacs on the market they are both FPGA based with R2R ladders and the dacs are built on all discrete cards for every function of the dac: analog boards, power supply boards, incomming data boards, outgoing dac boards,
if you look at the $8k Lascala XHD it has a total of 7 individual replaceable boards, this allows the entire unit to morph into an entirely new product over time as the Aqua engineers figure out new tricks to boost sound quality.
Our ultimate flagship dac the $32k Light Harmonic Davinci is also upgradble and we have had clients upgrade the older Dual Dac to the ew MK II Dual dac for a nominal charge.
It ultimately comes down to the sound quality and feature set you are looking for, all products in this discussion are excellent it will come down to personal preference.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua, Lumin, Light Harmonic dealers
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Hey guys what do you think about dCS and esoteric ???? |
Audiotroy, you make a stronger argument for Roon than the guy from Roon did when I quit the trial!
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Nyev Roon isn't for everybody and not everybody gets its brilliance,
What Roon does well is a number of things it is a lot more than just pick and artist and play music software yes it does that but that is not the core of what is does.
Roon is about discovering new music and discovering or rediscovering artists you love, personally we find that a stored library plus Roon and Tidal or Qbouz is paradise.
Your stored library is a memory device to remember all the artists you have ever purchased not to mention not all CD's titles will be on Tidal, or Obouz. The streaming services will then also help to round out your library.
One feature we love is Roon radio which finds new music based on what you were just listening to and then plays it automatically.
Another cool feature through Roon is the ability to upsample or cross convert so you can upsample Tidal to 24/192 or 24/384 up to 768k and DSD to 512 depending on your dac and the server Roon is running on.
We have found that certain dacs sound amazing at higher freq or playing DSD.
Yes Roon is expensive, at $500 lifetime or $119 a year but $119 a year is roughly $10 a month, go to Starbucks twice and you have paid for Roon.
Roon spent over 10 years developing its software it was Soolos originally and the softwares meta data and enriched surfing experience is why most people buy Roon in the first place.
Roon requires a lot of playing time and using time to see just how amazing the software is.
Roon may not be for you but many people find it fantastic. If you go for an Innuous they are Roon cores and really should be run with Roon vs iping or Squeeze player which Innuous also supports.
The conductor software is very good, we find Roon to be vastly better, also if an Innous Zenith matches a Aurender N10 yet sells for half the price don't you still think you may have a better deal on your hands even if you have to purchase Roon?
Just food for thought
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ innous dealers |
I have been of the mind to separate the processing/computer/network/usb activities. Since experimenting and removing all of the above from the listening room I settled on a microU as the final output before DAC with excellent results. As opposed to a laptop or noisy computer directly attached to DAC. I understand the microU is a "computer" but not the same generally speaking.
Having a high end wkst running HQP and ROON core to a fiber switch (all in laundry room) and then running fiber to listening room to microU (or equiv) seems to be the way to go IMHO to isolate all the crude. The new optical mU would simplify things even more.
However, it seems like a lot of the newer products are putting the design philosophies (power, noise, fiber in some cases, EMI etc..) into these products and would be fun to to try. The Innuous is interesting and I wonder if there would be a benefit over my config / similar config
Seems like one is either a set it and forget it / all in one type (lumin, aurender) or one wanting some more control (NAS, seperate DAC, endpoints etc..), which I am in the latter.
Being my mU is from the orig design (was updated though) I am starting to look as some possibilities. ROON is key (lifetime) for me, don’t care about the MQA bs at all.
This stuff moves too fast, its never eding.
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Jsonsim, I guess I don’t have the need to consolidate multiple streamers, so based on your feedback I still don’t see the value of Roon. How do they get to charge so much more than their competitors- some of whom offer free software players? People pay it, so there must be some value there. When I quit my Roon trial someone from Roon reached out to me and tried to justify the cost. Their argument was all focused on the metadata stuff that I guess doesn’t interest me. |
I use my iMac as my Roon Core server. I leave it on all the time.
I thought Roon was some silly thing. But after having it for six months or so, I am hooked. The interface is great. And I like the radio feature. It is also great to have so much information so well organized.
I only use it for Tidal streaming, since I don’t have a digital downloaded library. Maybe it is just me, but I don’t see the benefit to ripping all my CDs. Most of which have MQA versions right on Tidal.
Another big big plus is that Roon presents a uniform interface across all my streamers. I have a PS Audio DirectStream Junior DAC (a Roon endpoint) in my main system and a Bluesound Node (Roon endpoint) in my second system. These typically have different interfaces to control them, but with Roon it all works and looks the same. If I want to continue playing an album from my main system to my second system it is easy. I just tell Roon to switch to any of the Roon endpoints.
I also like that that the Roon controller can be my iPad, iPhone, iMac, MacBook, or even my Windows 10 PC.
What I don’t like is the price. I better start saving my pennies and upgrade to the lifetime version. 😀 |
@nyev,
I have a Moon MiND2 and a Bluesound Node2.
Had the Node2 first and it was convenient for using my NAS based library. But something always seemed missing in the Node2's playback; the sound seemed compressed. Always used the CD player for serious listening.
I've played both streamers through the same DAC using a high-quality digital cable, so the comparison is head-to-head. The MiND2 is easily superior to the Node2.
The MiND2 has been a breath of fresh air. Enough to inspire me to order a new upmarket DAC to compliment it. New toy next week!
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Good questions hgeifman. Also good considerations Audiotroy (about the Gryphon DAC module having the older chip in it). However, another HUGE dimension for me is not only sound quality, but sonic signature. The Gryphon DAC module had a sonic signature that I really enjoyed when I auditioned it, vs other external (albeit much lesser) DACs I tested. My takeaways were were aligned with pro reviewers who said the Gryphon DAC had a midrange that was well “grounded” and solid vs a more light and airy signature. Also I noticed the sheer 3D largeness of the vocals to be highly enjoyable. So even with a potentially outdated chip I find that these sonic signature qualities are most important to me. I also found all the other “quality” metrics to be excellent as well. Also, I don’t have any Lumin dealers near me so an audition wouldn’t even be possible. Finally, this could be psychological bias on my part but I feel like the Gryphon DAC signature is perfectly matched to the Diablo 300 amp. Which is probably true and no accident. In fact, in some pro reviews of the Diablo I think that some qualities mentioned are more specific to the DAC than the amp itself. For example I had know clue what one reviewer meant by vocals having a “golden” quality to it when auditioning the Diablo with an external DAC. But it somehow immediately made sense when I heard the Diablo with it’s DAC module. So, given that the Diablo DAC seems a firm decision at this point, the Innuous seems to do all I need it to do: Tidal integration, internal storage, good sound with good detail, at half the cost of the N10. The Ripper and Roon support are bonuses, but to be honest I don’t get what is so great about Roon vs other players unless you really care about meta content (I don’t). It’s not like it has better sound. Maybe someone can explain why I should care about Roon? Lack of AEB/EBU is a minor drawback for me on the Innuous, but a trade off I can live with because it seems to have everything else I need at a good price.
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Mrdon, one previlent issue of comparing the Auralic to the Innuous is that if you want to run Roon, with an Auralic you have to have another device running Roon core.
Also with the Innuous you get a CD ripper as well.
So if you are comparing an Aurlic G1 you have to weigh in on the server issues do you want to run Roon, if so what device is going to run Roon?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Innuous dealer |
I do not yet own a Auralic Aries G1 but it is on my short list (innuos Mk III Auralic G1) and I am very curious as to why i have not yet heard anyone mention the Auralic Aries G1 in this conversation. And for that fact as far as DACS goes how about the Lab 12 Dac 1? Anyone ever heard or owned that unit?
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I own the Aurender N10 Music Server and like it very much. I listen to Tidal and Qobuz Streaming for their outstanding sound quality. My stored CD albums also sound excellent.
The Aurender Conductor App (free) is very easy to use. It is easy to switch between my stored CD’s, Tidal Streaming, Qobuz and Internet radio (listen to the Radio Paradise station at 320kbps). The Aurender Conductor App "turns the iPad into a versatile user interface for Aurender Music Server/Players. All settings and functions of the Aurender Server/Music Player can be easily accessed through the Settings menu, and the Aurender Conductor App comes with extensive features to make managing, viewing and playing high resolution music collections a breeze". The Aurender N10 also supports MQA coded albums including an MQA search feature. The App provides various sort options for handling your stored CD’s.
Aurender Customer Support is excellent. I have contacted them with requests and also questions on the operation of the Aurender.
I highly recommend the Aurender N10 music server for its excellent sound quality, build quality and an easy to use interface that makes finding your music simple. The Aurender Conductor App enables me to quickly find the album I want and play it. The Aurender has a 240G solid-state drive that is used to cache music for playback for the very best sound quality. As you can see from above many posts, the selection of a music server is not an easy decision or process. It seems, everyone has a DIFFERENT server recommendation. I suggest you make a list of the important features your music server needs and your questions. For example, please review: 1) What is your price range for a music server? 2) What features does your server need? For example, I wanted my CD albums stored in the same box, wanted Tidal, Qobuz Streaming Services and also Internet radio stations. And, also the ability to add more additional streaming services when they become available. 3) Do you want a DAC built into the streamer or a separate DAC? For maximum flexibility, I decided on an external DAC. 4) What digital outputs do you need? I decided on a Music streamer with BOTH USB and AES/EBU digital outputs to my DAC. In most cases, I prefer the AEB/EBU connection (a high priority for me). Some servers offer an Ethernet audio connection for output. 5) Is a Roon interface important to you? If needed, you need a Roon enabled server. I decided that Roon is not required. In my case, the Aurender Conductor App DOES exactly what I need. However, several of my friends purchased a Roon enabled server and likes it very much. Another friend purchased the Roonlabs Nucleus by Roon Music Server and recommends it. 6) Your server needs a controlling App that runs on an iPad or something similar. You need to review the App to ensure it supports your needs to easily find and manage your music selections. 7) Does your server offer Remote Internet Technical Support? The Aurender does. I used this once and they solved my user operational issue very quickly (my error). 8) Sound quality is the MOST important. In my case, I asked many questions, talked to many people, read many reviews and auditioned various servers to help me make the right decision. I selected the Aurender N10 Music Server for its sound quality.
I hope the above helps you make a decision. Thanks.... |
Are there any mid-high end streamers that include the ability to stream to remote player/speakers, like Bluesound? I love the Bluesound features, but was hoping for something a little higher-end. Streamers like the Aurenders, Auralics, Cocktail_Audio, etc., seem to do everything the Bluesound can EXCEPT stream to speakers in remote parts of my home. |
blimey
the lot of you has some money
i will say that |
I have compared Roon with Aurender Conductor app and didn’t feel shortchanged in any way with my iPad music-browsing experience.
The app lets me seemlessy toggle between Tidal, Qobuz and it’s internal hard drive. I can browse top songs from my favorite artist or browse similar artist in that genre. One of the feature I really enjoy, creating playlist from my queue. And the Conductor app is free 😉
I just happen to care more about the sound and build quality of my streaming device over a fancy interface. |
+1 on the Lumin. Aurender lost me with no Roon support. |
+1 @ricred1 You should consider the Antipodes line. I have heard the DS, owned the DX and currently own the DX3 server. I have also listened to much of the Aurender line. I favor the Antipodes sound quality and Roon capability. Your budget is such that you are in the range of the current flagship Antipodes CX+EX combo (which I haven't yet heard but hope to at AXPONA this year if I'm able to attend). |
@Shakira. You have earned no credibility here, however, John certainly has. I’ve never done business with him nor have I ever owned Vandy’s. I just hate to see someone who lives “in a van by the river” try to harm a retailer with many years of exemplary testimonials. Rant over.
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By the way
forget John Rotan of audio connection (I think) he sets up vandi’s that are dull sounding with bright amps.
He is no gentleman, you don’t buy from him see what gentleman John is all about |
Nyev we are Innuous dealers and were until recently Aurender dealers so we are in total agreement with the wonders of the Innuous products.
A couple of good points however were made by a few other posters:
1: The dac board of the Gryphon is a $5k ish upgrade. for less money you could get a Lumin T2 which is a remarkable $4,500.00 streamer however a good set of cables would add $1-3k so that would have to also be considered, then their is the flagship X1 which is a $14k streaming/dac which would easily match the quality of the Diablo.
The issue is how good do you want your digital to be and at what price?
The Gryphon digital option should be auditioned vs some of the other really good options for similar money.
So you could go with Gryphon Digital board + Innuous Zenith $9k or so
(advantage no interconnect and you get a great Roon sever)
Possible issue is how good is the Dac board, Ess 9018 is the older chip vs newer ESS 9028 and 9038 pro chip sets
Lumin T2 Plus cable $4,500.00-$7,500.00 you can stream Tidal, Qubouz, you wouldn't get a Roon sever
Advantage easy to upgrade separate streaming dac, newer double Dac 9028 pro chip set, probably better sound then digital board
:Lumin X1 insane reference level streaming dac which matchs or betters most of the $25-30k plus digital front ends
for $14k plus interconnect.
Just food for thought
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Innuous, Lumin, dealers |
Keep It simple
i have a Dac, Jays mcdt2mk2 Transport with a good R2R ladder Dac
Hi End Nirvana
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Great feedback. Glad to see a variety of opinions but it still seems the largest consensus is around the Innuous Zenith MKIII. In general on the internet where there are lots of opinions I usually base my opinions around patterns of consensus. The Zenith seems like a winner to me because 1) Seems people think it is at least as good as the N10, and 2) it is almost half the cost of the N10. Thanks all, as I said, I’d never heard of Innuous before this thread and I likely would have paid double on the N10 if not for the feedback here. |
What are CDs? Ha! Any CD I may buy will get ripped immediately and loaded into Roon with all the music I stream from Tidal. What a joy to have all this music available with just a couple of clicks! Amazing time to be a lover of music. I am listening to more new music than ever and loving the experience. My digital front end has never sounded better than with the Innuos/Tidal/Roon combo. I have owned all manner of great CD players and transports and the Innuos takes the sonic lead in my experience. Great sound all at my fingertips. No more looking for a CD by fumbling through a bunch of plastic cases.
I realize some like to handle discs and that is great for them. Great time to buy CDs cheap so your in luck.
I have access to and actually experienced more new music in two years than the previous 30 with the advent of Tidal and streaming. My newfound love for Americana music is all due to streaming and Tidal. |
Antipodes are worth a listen. |
Take a look at small green computer for their sonic transporter line to replace Mac mini/Roon core, and Sonore products for their Rendu line of streamers. Direct to customer, cutting edge tech you, top notch sq and reasonable prices. Highly recommended |
Sorry guys
get yourself a Jays Audio
transport with a R2R ladder Dac and you will be in heaven.
Jays audio cdt2 mk2
you will enjoy your red book cds.
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Another vote for the Innuos Zenith...
I am the proud owner of an Aurender N100H as was a close friend of mine. My friend had a situation that utilizing Roon would allow him to compensate for. As a result, last year at Axpona I became aware of the Zenith and steered my friend to it. He bought one of the last Mk II Special Edition. Comparing to the N100H, the Zenith was a significant step up. I have not heard compared to the N10... But I can say the compared to the Zenith internal operating system complimented by the Roon system gives him a much improved user interface. Duplicate file searching, file management, CD ripping, backup, networking capabilities and overall useage are just far superior. I am a fan of Aurender, but their choices in operating software are going to leave them relegated to the dinosaurs of audio unless they can significantly upgrade. My biggest problem is in managing my 2 TB library and inability to backup on the Aurender platform. For these reasons alone, I would steer you towards the Innuos. If you need help finding a dealer. Private message me and I will send you contact information for the NA sales rep.
I am happy with the Aurender, it is a solid system. But in this case, the Zenith grass is just much greener! |
On the other hand, if you want to move up I would recommend a PS Audio DirectStream DAC Junior ($4000) or the Senior ($6000) with the bridge II. These option will give you a world class DAC and streamer built in. They are Roon endpoints too. Makes things so easy. The best part is that these are FPGA DACs and can be upgraded via firmware.
Jason |
If you want to use the DAC built in to the Gryphon you might just look into a Auralic Aries mini or the now equivalent. I used and still have my Aries Mini and it works great. It can unfold MQA. The built in DAC of the Aries is rubbish. So expect to use a SPDif output. |
Lumin X1 is the one: The ultimate Streamer with DAC. Ideal features, outstanding sound and 3D imaging. Very liquid and musical. I can't ask for more. |
Zen and Zenith both have Ethernet outs, so if your DAC is network-enabled, you can use that, and it'll usually be better than USB.
This is cool as it makes them relatively future-proof. Use USB for now, and eventually, when you get a network-enabled DAC (most will go that route sooner or later), you can continue to use the same music server.
Some DACs still sound better through legacy ports, like SPDIF or AES/EBU, so this is something that needs to be examined case-by-case, maybe consulting first with your DAC's manufacturer.
Anyway, we are one of the oldest dealers for Innuos, and it's a tremendous product throughout. We also did carry Aurender and Auralic, but now we do only Innuos.
cheers,
Alex
Alma Music and Audio
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Hgeifman, I checked the Innuous site and it appears you are correct - it is USB to DAC only.
Just curious - do you see that as a disadvantage? |
Does the INNUOS Zenith MK III Server have an AES/EBU output connection? If not, the USB is the only connection available for
connecting to a DAC, correct? Thanks. |
I’ve had Aurender and Antipodes music servers, I personally preferred the Antipodes because I like Roon better than the Aurender Conductor app.
Antipodes products are within your budget and worth considering.
I’ve owned--and still do own--products from Bluesound. While they are super-convenient, I don’t think the sound quality of Bluesound gets anywhere near Aurender or Antipodes.
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Love my Innuous Zenith 3. Wouldn’t want a built in DAC. DAC technology seems to change pretty often and I want the ability to upgrade a DAC without having to buy a new server. |
