Turntable

@miguel1972 

I think I speak for everyone when I say this...

What the -ell are you talking about?

I think he's referring to the part of the spindle that goes down into the bearing. I think......

OK? So, what is Metal Lube? And maybe more importantly... why am I writing this?

METAL LUBE is an anti-friction treatment based on an exclusive high-tech formulation, with the ability to drastically reduce friction by up to 95%

Why not contact the maker of the turntable you have and asked them if you can use the metal lube ?

If you want an oil designed for turntable like applications (not a gimmicky engine treatment), get some Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium, or Mobil Velocite 6.

If your table has a high torque motor, you can try Maryn Thixosyn grease. It can handle extremely high loads with absolutely zero wear.

Why start a thread that is dependent on an unknown ?

Slaw,

It is unknown to you and the poster. He posted it because it may not be unknown to someone else. It is called a question. If I posted every time I didn’t have an answer to a question here on AG, my fingers would get very tired. If you don’t have an answer to his question it would be better to save your fingers from too much work.

Very bad idea who ever heard of this.

I understand audio as alchemy. Many times things are discovered by association with other uses as in research.

It's another lubricant, no more, no less.  Maybe it is superior to other common choices for turntable bearings.  Maybe not.  I think Miguel raised an interesting question, but none of us is qualified to say yea or nay, since none of us has used it for this application.  But it's not "magic".  The first thing that I would verify before using it on a turntable is whether it is corrosive for either the bearing (which is typically a ball made of an exotic metal) or the thrust plate.  If not, have fun.

ebm,

Why would it be a bad idea?

Mr. M, I will answer the question you posed to EBM by referring you to my post just above which mentions that an unknown complex lubricant might contain additives that could be corrosive for the ball bearing or the thrust pad. To know whether that could be a problem you would need to know the composition of the ball bearing and of the thrust pad and of the new lubricant that you want to try. In this case, we know none of these things. After that, you would need to consider the actual new lubricant and whether it is indeed superior to known good lubricants for the turntable bearing.

Hello,
I think you have not understood the question.
To begin with, Metal Lube is not a lubricant. It acts on the metals, sealing the pores and does not replace any lubricant. It is necessary to add a lubricant type with metal lube agun.
I can recommend tribology books.

@raymonda ,

I guess I thought that "Metal Lube" was an unknown to most here (me included), which is why I thought the OP should have described it in his initial post, thus decreasing confusion going forward and increasing the probability of positive/useful responses.

Miguel, I think the same cautionary notes apply.  In this case, you'd want to know that the sealer does not interact with the actual lubricant in a bad way.  Anyway, for a turntable bearing, I would also wonder why sealing the pores in the metal parts is critically important; the parts in the bearing bear forces across their contact surfaces.  Do the pores, such as they may be, enter into this?  I dunno.

@lewm 

That makes perfect sense to me.

No.

I recall the Microlon product many years back, a similar 
metal treatment product that filled metal pores, a friend
applied it to a micro piston engine and found the RPM increased
quite noticeably indicating naturally less friction.

Would I apply a similar product to my TT bearing no. 

I agree the most here that for a TT bearing, a separate product that needs to be applied prior to and in addition to the bearing lubricant is not necessary.

I would concur that products such as Caig that are meant to be applied on electrical conductors that fill in microscopic gaps, do work and are beneficial in that area.

Walker Audio SST silver paste works,too, but that’s a different application.

To begin with, Metal Lube is not a lubricant. It acts on the metals, sealing the pores and does not replace any lubricant. It is necessary to add a lubricant type with metal lube agun.

This would defeat the intended design of sintered bronze bearings which are found in many turntables.

Lower friction does not necessarily mean less noise. Also, some TT are designed to have a certain amount of friction to act as a constant low-noise brake. I would stick to the manufacturer's recommendation - yeah, maybe it's $50 for an ounce worth 50 cents, but what's your TT worth?

So far, Helomech offered the most cogent point.  Make sure your turntable does not have sintered bronze bearings, by all means.  And then don't use the stuff regardless.

Friction in a piston engine, which lives at very high piston velocities and where the metals are known, is a whole different thing from what's happening in a turntable.

A properly designed turntable bearing relies on a thin film of oil to provide enough pressure so that it works properly. "filling holes" doesn’t help as there should be no metal to metal contact. The counter argument can be made that a rougher spindle surface "grips" the oil better and aids in bearing performance. Having said that the treatment should do no harm, as long as it doesn’t drastically affect viscosity or bearing clearances. Also because TT bearings operate at low rpm bearing "failure" is a possiblity and in this scenario reduced friction of the surfaces can be helpful.

Bruce
Anvil Turntables

don't try to reinvent the wheel…a good synthetic  motor oil works great…Two drops for me once a year on a VPI Scout.

Bruce, Thanks for your expert input.  You wrote, "Also because TT bearings operate at low rpm bearing "failure" is a possibility and in this scenario reduced friction of the surfaces can be helpful."

Why does operation at low rpm's enhance (rather than diminish) the chance for "failure"?  Or maybe I do not understand how you are defining the word "failure".  Also, except in the case where the bearing is deliberately designed to increase drag on the motor so as to help maintain constant speed (e.g. the grease bearing in a Garrard 301), when would reduced friction NOT be helpful? Thanks.

I can't see the benefits in this application for a turntable at all. The best lubricant for this purpose, a turntable bearing, is per the manufacturers recommendation and care to use oil with zero additives. Many of these additives were/are designed to fill the void of scratches in engine blocks so piston rings can be even more efficient at their purpose. Inverted bearings, such as Michell's have a slight rifling to carry lubricant to the bearings fulcrum point then allowed to drain and replenish a flow back down the shaft. Minimizing that small rifling groove in any way , even the smallest amount when it see's a design as a flaw and attempts to fill it would most certainly reduce the designs effectiveness. It's , to me anyway, as wrong as those who tell others to replace bearings with far harder ceramic bearings in designs that are purposely made to make the bearing the wear point , not the shafts top. One requires the ball removed cleaned and replaced so it hits a new place of contact , the other may  require a whole new bearing from damaging the top of the shaft where the ball sits. As usual , the same tired argument made by want to be experts that the company only did it to make more profits is used.  Things are made at a cost without argument , however a product well established and with a specific design, then altered to defeat those specific's, is a poor specific users choice , in my humble view , for what its worth...…………..  

Oil well turntable bearings unlike for example a crankshaft bearing can't always generate the rpm necessary to assure enough pressure to prevent metal to metal contact .  Im not saying they don't work however, just contact is possible. Hi friction in a bearing in no way increases speed stability. Once warmed up and the viscosity changes it doesn't hurt it either. 

Thanks.  I guess the problem with low rpm would especially apply to an inverted bearing turntable. I am not sure that the braking effect of the grease bearing in an early Garrard 301 is totally analogous with friction but others refer to that constant drag as a way to stabilize the speed.

"Others" are wrong, LOL. 
Inverted bearings "work" better at low rpm in theory but have other disadvantages like higher friction. Lots of ways to good sound. 

Of course I amin the low friction camp so I am biased. I can't think of a single advantage friction adds to a TT.  NOT saying that higher friction designs sound bad, just that in theory it is a detriment. 

As John Curl says......."Condemnation without Examination is Prejudice"

Depends on your theory.

Just to come clean, I use aerospace air bearings, both thrust and radial.

Low friction bearings allow for smaller motors, less noise/vibration, simpler controllers, better dynamics, quieter playback, greater simplicity etc. Air bearings are great and achieve these goals if you don't mind dealing with a pump.