@elizabeth very interesting what Bryston Cubed specs(high level, page 4) indicate. I wish there are proper measurements published by someone for one of the cubed series amp.
What amps should I audition?
I’m thinking ahead (crazy I know)
I want to purchase a high end amplifier next year, maybe an integrated or just a power amp.
I would be looking to spend around 15k max on an integrated, and 8-10k on a power amp separate (funds to acquire a preamp will be got at a later date next year)
What brands and what model from each brand should I try to get a home audition for?
I should note I would probably be buying new as I can’t imagine I will be able to get a home audition with used gear. I’m open to buying used, but I’d have to get an audition in a system like mine, or actually in my system... I don’t really want to buy anything without auditioning first. On a related note, what is the easiest or best way to get a dealer relationship started, one where he would let me home audition? I’m even willing to pay 100% deposit if it means I can return it no questions ask after the audition period, but the dealers I’ve asked to do this with so far have refused. I always see people on this forum saying they manage to do that. I’m a bit at a loss how they manage to pull that off.
Anyway some more ideas: Bryston amps and Nagra Classic pre? This was the only setup I’ve heard on my speakers and it was quite magical. I really like the Nagra, and the Bryston combo. Used, it could be got within my budget. New.. not so much. I could swap out the Brystons with the matching Nagra amp, maybe. Or even just go for the Nagra Classic Integrated. All within my budget (if used) and with my speakers 96db sensitivity I should be good to go with the Nagra 100wpc rating.
other ideas: mcintosh mc462 or mc275 mk vi.
Pass Labs XA30.8 or XA60.8 or XA100.8
Acxuphase e-470
Luxman 509X
Actually that’s all I’ve really come up with so far. I am open to hearing any thoughts, concerns or ideas you may have. I do believe all the above mentioned amps will better my Kinki EX-M1.
Cabling will be upgraded to Audience before any of this by the way.
I want to purchase a high end amplifier next year, maybe an integrated or just a power amp.
I would be looking to spend around 15k max on an integrated, and 8-10k on a power amp separate (funds to acquire a preamp will be got at a later date next year)
What brands and what model from each brand should I try to get a home audition for?
I should note I would probably be buying new as I can’t imagine I will be able to get a home audition with used gear. I’m open to buying used, but I’d have to get an audition in a system like mine, or actually in my system... I don’t really want to buy anything without auditioning first. On a related note, what is the easiest or best way to get a dealer relationship started, one where he would let me home audition? I’m even willing to pay 100% deposit if it means I can return it no questions ask after the audition period, but the dealers I’ve asked to do this with so far have refused. I always see people on this forum saying they manage to do that. I’m a bit at a loss how they manage to pull that off.
Anyway some more ideas: Bryston amps and Nagra Classic pre? This was the only setup I’ve heard on my speakers and it was quite magical. I really like the Nagra, and the Bryston combo. Used, it could be got within my budget. New.. not so much. I could swap out the Brystons with the matching Nagra amp, maybe. Or even just go for the Nagra Classic Integrated. All within my budget (if used) and with my speakers 96db sensitivity I should be good to go with the Nagra 100wpc rating.
other ideas: mcintosh mc462 or mc275 mk vi.
Pass Labs XA30.8 or XA60.8 or XA100.8
Acxuphase e-470
Luxman 509X
Actually that’s all I’ve really come up with so far. I am open to hearing any thoughts, concerns or ideas you may have. I do believe all the above mentioned amps will better my Kinki EX-M1.
Cabling will be upgraded to Audience before any of this by the way.
103 responses Add your response
I found some measurements for Bryston 14B3 :). They are quite amazing for a Class AB amp putting out 900 Watts @ 4ohm: http://hifilounge.co.uk/image/attachments/Bryston/Bryston%2014B%20Cubed%20Review.pdf Not sure what to make of this. Anyone care to point out something that can do better for same $ and watts?. |
Why address the shielded question to me? As a ’wild guess’ the circuitry in the Bryston amps is far enough away that there is no need for a shield. (plus Bryston uses a separate toroid for each channel, they are stacked inside the case) Thus each transformer is smaller., with a smaller field. ?Plus how much is marketing vs actual improvement in the sound. Like the 1970’s specs with tons of feedback to make SPECS look good. IS the shielding for a reason? (Maybe some designs placed critical components TOO CLOSE, and wanted to keep them there, so they added a shield?) all sorts of possible reasons either way. IMO this is a THEORY question, One where there is not actual answer anyone can work with, just plays off folks needing excuses instead of actual listening. And finally if a shielded transformer made ANY difference to the performance of a Bryston amp.. There would be at least several posts somewhere (I would have seen and read) discussing ADDING shielding and how it improves the sound. Since there are NONE.. I can say it does not add anything of value to the sound of a Bryston amp. Because somewhere, someone would be doing it ... if it mattered.) |
something I noticed is that designers like Parasound, Coda and few others shield the toroidal transformer but Bryston continues not to. Any implications of that?.@geek101 No. Toroidal transformers don't radiate a lot of noise- its magnetic field is fairly compact due to the toroidal form. Usually any 'shield' or can that is around the transformer is more for cosmetic purposes. |
I only went through the comments quickly, but I didn't see any mention of Herron Audio M-2 amps. I'm using a pair of M-1 amps and am quite satisfied. As good or better than any of the high-priced alternatives over $40K but only cost a little less than $8K a pair. Yes I have a bias toward Herron Audio gear. But that's because of their performance. |
There are many amps that I would buy over Bryston and I have. If you like tubes and you have 96db speakers the rogue Cronus magnum with the kt120’s would have plenty power for your speakers. I had this rogue for a couple of years but it wouldn’t drive my 4 ohm Usher’s, not tight enough bass for me. if you like solid state, McIntosh, Hegel, ps audio, audio research all make great sounding gear. I went to the Hegel h300 integrated with my usher’s and it drove them easily. You can pick up a Hegel h300 or h360 integrated for around $3000. When I went to the larger usher’s, I went with a new ps audio 250 signature with a McIntosh C47 preamp. Ps audio has an in home trial period. |
Give the guys at PS Audio a call. 1-800-PSAUDIO. I have the Stellar mono blocks, bought them used on Audiogon for 2k basically one of the best amps you can get for under 5k. Or move up to the BHK series. Stereo amp 250w for $7500 or mono blocks for &15k. I They started the BHK with no target price point. Simply build the best sounding amp possible and then decide on the price. 30 day free in home trial which I did for the DSJ DAC. I chose Stellar mono blocks $3000 with BHK Signature Preamp $6000. And investing the money left over into new speakers. The point of this is. System synergy and you will need to audition an amplifier to see how it works with your other components. Plain and simple. |
d2girls, what shoff said, I've read a few comments from one who seems to have run through as many amps as models do with clothes. He has the same impression of this amp. Have you chanced upon this thread? https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each While not looking to buy another amp just yet, highly educational for me. |
Diablo 300 is good for the money but its not even close to being the "best" integrated. Higher priced ones like Dag Momentum will smoke it in every possible way...but its 2.5X the price. Dartzeel 8550 is another one that is above and beyond the Diablo 300. Im sure there are PLENTY of others if you have the coin. (T+A, CH Precision etc) You can check the thread mentioned in the above post to see how the DAG Integrated fared against the Diablo 300 in a shootout. It wasnt pretty for the Diablo. |
I am the owner of a Krell 400 FPB 400cx - a true Class A iconic beast legendary for deep bass and beautiful sonic properties. I auditioned the brand new ( not yet released) K-300i Krell Integrated amp in Denver at the Rocky Mountain Audio Show. I was BLOWN AWAY. Based on this audition (sans sub) I proceeded to order the new Krell DUO 300 XD - 300 wpc iBias. It is the same architecture and topology but of course will sound better than the integrated amp. At $9,500 I do not believe one can do better for high end audio. Simply marvelous and exceeded the quality of my 2004 "muscle car." I'm not sure pricing on the K-300i but you can call and find out. Ships in December I believe. It was FAR more detailed than any comparable McIntosh. Fast! Superb! |
It would be obscene to spend 8-10k on any amplifier and have it not sound terrific. Why should one doubt which sounds better if spending more money always means better sound? Its an illusion otherwise. More money does not mean better. Better construction perhaps (paying for over engineering).... But sound? We need to take the needed time to learn how to extract the best sound out of regular audiophile equipment long before we become Jed Clampetts and not know what to do with our dang fangled ce'ment pond. A ten thousand dollar amp can sound terrible if you do not have the skills needed to set up optimally. |
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A couple of other Companies you may want to consider: I listed the integrated but their Amps are just as good .... Ayre www.ayre.com/products/amplification/ax-5-twenty Prima Luna www.primaluna-usa.com/dialogue-premium-hp-integrated Ypsilon Great product, once and A while a used one comes up into the high side of your price point. www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=251# Best of luck and have fun! |
On the point of spending on peripherals, Yes you need IC and AC upgrades. But not neccessarily the same time. My efforts have been to buy the best I can afford, then the next phase of spending after I paid off the junk I just bought, is the accessories to top notch. Then back to the most important item.. upgrade.. So eight years ago I bought new amp, preamp, speakers. Over the next few years I bought power conditioners, power cords, IC.. Then this year I upgraded the speakers, and a DAC for the main items. And added in some AC duplex. So my new way better speakers had the stuff they needed to sound good right off. And I know as I upgrade other bits, the whole will get better too. |
Consider an 833-A SET run at 1000 Volts through a Hammond 1642SE output transformer. At 1000 Volts it will draw about 140 ma which is just right for that triode transformer configuration with the grid bias at ground potential to make the circuit simpler. You can drive it with a 45 SET coupled through 4.5 to 4 K primary and a step-down of 8:1 with the secondary between the 833-A grid and one terminal of the 833-A cathode. You may need some help from someone who has experience in making the 833-A work and you have to protect the 1000 Volt circuits from being possible for anyone to touch but this is not difficult. I have been experimenting with this and I plan to use it to run a pair of Magnepan 0.7 speakers when I save up enough to buy them. |
I don’t have a lot of experience but to me buying an amp before speaker introduces the risk of incompatibility. Also amps performance is not correlated with price is my observation. Being objective about speaker requirement and objective about amp capability and price will help. I think buying a speaker with active cross over and which is fully active powered i.e an amp inside for each driver is best way forward. If I ever buy my next speaker I would go this way. |
In my journey through a number of amps, I found that a pair of used Mac 501s, mated with a tube pre amp made my Maggie’s still no like no other combination. I could sell my amps for what I paid tomorrow and I have had them for 9 years. The synergy between the amp, pre amp and speakers is key. I would listen closely to other owners of your speakers to see what their pre amp / amp combination is. The speakers drive the bus IMHO. |
Okay, I've heard the cubed Brystons with EAR 912 preamp. Great sound. I once owned the Bryston 4B. It was okay, unexciting, killed by various tube amps. No one mentioned VAC amps/integrated. The 200IQ is 100 watts with excellent current capability, Class A/B, works with almost all speakers. VAC Sigma 170i integrated is 85 watts, similar to the 200. Both are low maintenance continuous auto bias amps with common tubes. That should be in your price and need range. |
My vote would be for Bryston. Very nice sounding gear - the perfect combination of power, punch, detail and finesse and a stellar company that stands behind what they sell. Bryston power amps pair incredibly well with the more neutral and detailed tubed pre-amps like the ARs. and unlike many of the tubed power amps, most tubed pre-amps do not eat through tubes. Just my 2 cents....Jim |
That McIntosh 462 looks pretty. The op should do some reading up on the current not so great state of MAC service and repair. Also the number of current new from the box issues with MAC gear. The word is (from long time MAC users) is MAC is NOT quite the company it used to be. New corporate owners, new problems make MAC a not the best choice, unless you just have to have those blue meters. All this bad mouthing? Well I am just writing the same stuff written over at Audio Affectionado. (Big McIntosh lovers) t is true, bad news gets a hundred times the volume of good news. I am not trying to ’harm’ MAC. just stating what MAC folks are stating in other forums.Some of the same is being said about Audio Research, but not as bad. The main issue there seems to be older gear is not getting repaired by ARC. They are washing their hands, suggest the owners, buy new ARC gear.(ARC never would have done that back in the day...) |
Esoteric integrated amp with DAC & phonostage: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/f03a/indexe.html 3in1 solution... vs Accuphase E600... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/accuphase-e600-or-esoteric-f-03a |
And interesting comparison of this DarTzeel with the Boulder 865 integrated, which at nearly half the price and is barely lesser... https://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-cth-8550-integrated-amplifier-page-2 |
So far I've considered these options seriously: Going back to Pass Labs. Love the refined sound of Pass gear. With my budget I could go for 60.8 monoblocks. Or go for a 30.8 and with a XP-20. Ayre. Mcintosh mc462 or mc452. I was contacted by a member and told that the 462 is noticeably worse sounding. Anybody know anything about that? Since the mc452 is a discontinued model, I could probably acquire one cheaper... but my goal was to buy new. I don't know if I want to get a mc452 on the used market, and I'm not sure if any dealer is going to have one in stock since its discontinued. Luxman 509x or Accuphase e-480. Both seem really awesome. Still no idea which one I'd go for but I'm leaning towards Accuphase just based on the fact it seems to get recommended slightly more often over the Luxman. Accuphase e-650. Yeah this is probably over my budget but I have to consider its an integrated, so I don't need to budget money on a preamp later on. |
Highly consider the PS Audio BHK 250 stereo power amp or a used BHK 300 monoblock amps. These BHK amps are hybrid with tube input stage & SS output stage. Highly recommended! You can also look into some used Mark Levinson amps, some Ayre amps, used and older Krell Evolution series amps, used class AB Classe Delta CAM-600 or CAM-300 monoblock amps (discontinued) or the older class A Classe Omega series amps (discontinued), Parasound Halo JC1 monoblock amps (class A/AB bias) or some used Simaudio Evolution series amps. |
You should do some research online, but the new 509 is a class AB configuration, and the 590 is listed as class A, it’s spec’d at 30W@8ohms, but actually measures nearer 90W. It was Luxman’s top of the line until the new 509 was introduced. Now I’d say they’re both at the top, depending on what you prefer. The newest version is the L-590AX MkII. The earlier L-590AX’s are available used in excellent shape in the low $4000’s. That’s the model I own. Also, and I don’t remember your requirements, but the Luxmans, unlike Accuphase, have a very good phono stage included. http://www.navratilaudio.cz/novinky/Luxman_L590AXII_HFW.pdf |
Here's a new demo unit of the previous version, and some details. On a Higher Note used to be the main Luxman dealer in the U.S., I believe. https://onahighernote.com/shop/integrated-amps/luxman-l-590ax-pure-class-a-integrated-amp/ |