What amps should I audition?

I’m not sure yet but I THINK I prefer solid state over tube. I have honestly never heard a tube amp aside from a Finale Audio el34 6wpc integrated. Beautiful, natural and realistic sounding midrange and top end, but very little control on the woofers. 

I recommend you try out tube amp.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis97171-rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-2-tube-integrated-amplifier-tub...

This one will be good starting point to compare with Kinki.

Even if you re sell it after 6 months, you are not going to lose much.

It has enough power to drive your JBL with more round timber.

I've previously had a Rogue Cronus Magnum and,while it is a nice amp for the money, IMHO it isn't in the same league as the amps d2girls has mentioned nor "category" she is looking for.

@facten 

Line Magnetic 508 or 805 will be in the same league as her high expectation.

But the thing is she is not so sure whether she will go for tube or not.

It may not be bad idea to try out used Cronus Magnum II.

What are you using upstream? And, JBL's are your speakers?

In my opinion, I think you will hear a greater difference when upgrading a preamp. Though if your current amps aren't powerful enough or on their last legs, then that would be a good move.
B

Coda is worth looking into. The 509 Luxman also sounds very good from reviews.

What are your speakers and your front end source components? 

I would seriously consider power amps from Van Alstine avahifi.com

Ive got a little older solid state amp from him, really pleased with, but his new DVA monoblocks have been getting great reviews and might be more in line with what you’re looking for. http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2018/10/13/audio-by-van-alstine-dva-set-600-mono-block-amplifier

I use a McIntosh MC 452 with my JBL 4367s. Drives them very nicely.

I would discuss what is needed to get that home audition. Few dealers (really no dealers) will offer a no cost home audition to a stranger. The dealer has a brand new item, used when it is returned. They assume you will return it. What is in it for them? nothing. All it is doing is costing them.
In order to get a home audition I had known my dealer for 33 years,and had spent $40,000 previously there. He offered a Marantz SA-10 for me to audition cold (I did not ask) for five days, no strings.
So the only sort of deal you could go for is like Audio Advisor accepts returns. The one problem there, is they WILL cut you off if you return a big item. Like that $12,000 amp is the only thing you bought, and returned it? Never again. On the other hand, a few companies. Like the current Carver tube offers, offer money back guarantee, I think so does PS Audio?
=================
Anyway, I ask If you LIKED the Bryston, why do not want something else? The ’grass’ is NOT greener in unknown products. (Particularly MAC gear. MAC gear SUCKS! soundwise.. Jeez.) Just buy a used Bryston 14B3, pair of 7B3’s, or a pair of used 28B3 and stick to your Niagra preamp idea.
I LIKED the sound of my Magnepan 3.6, so KNOWING THAT I went to 20.7s I am happy. I own a 4B-SST² amp. When I actually have some money again, I will go WITH WHAT I LIKE which will be a Bryston pair of 7B3 or a 14B3.. maybe used, maybe new. Sure I can think what about a different amp. Pass? Maybe a tube Carver? but knowing it is a crapshoot.. I will stick to the Bryston. (which sounds great)
I like to try preamps. so there I do play around. Last try was a Conrad Johnson ACT2. (I am disappointed that it was not way way better than my other preamps.. it is good, just not spectacular) I still use my Bryston BP26. The biggest problem for me in tubes is I play music 8 to 10 hours every day. Wearing out tubes too fast. I WOULD go for a Audio Research preamp. Ref 5SE or 6, except for the tube life. I would have to buy new tubes every eight to ten months. Not interested!)
Back to your needs. I would like to know more WHY, if you liked the Bryston/Nagra. are you not going there? The Bryston used is EASY. (as long as you get the dealer receipt for warranty) The Nagra.. Probably have to save up to buy new. or have the money and search the ads for a long time.. Here elsewhere. every day. (the problem is, high demand stuff is sold the same day. Stuff no one whats you can see endlessly day after day. (A nice phono box I was thinking about the same day it posted? IF I would have clicked buy the moment I first saw it. I might have it. Since I waited ten minutes, dawdling . I lost it.)
I have the feeling you are waffling. You want the best, you are worried, can "X" be better than what I heard as great? MY advice from FIFTY FOUR YEARS of buying audio stuff is BUY what you heard and liked. There IS NO magic other pile. yeah you can TRY.. Spending megabucks and being disappointed AGAIN... THAT is the audiophile mantra. Sadly it is very hard to find anyone willing to loan equipment. The money is just not in it, for them, at all. The only real way is buy used, try it, sell it for what you paid. Plenty of folks do that. They are never satisfied. Since the grass really is never greener.. anywhere.

Reno Hi Fi will allow in home trials of Pass equipment for 10 days.

If your decide to return after trial, then you pay the shipping both ways.

They have good deals on demos, with free shipping, and no tax.

d2girls
  Jbl 4367

You've got a speaker that "can" tear your head off with the wrong amp. You want an amp that is extended at both ends, dynamic, detailed and tight. Yet a must is one that is sssssweet!!
And that's going to be the any of the Pass XA's you mentioned, the bigger the better as the standing Class-A will be higher the bigger you go.

Cheers George 

A couple of thoughts:

1.  I have relied on George's insight a number of times and have always been happy that I have.  I put a lot of faith in his experience, particularly the science behind the sound.  He's great at system synergy, which is really important.

2.  Reno Hi-Fi does offer in-home demo's (and it's fully spelled out on their website).  Beyond that, Mark (the owner), is one of the kindest, smartest and most reasonable people I know in the business.  There's a reason Reno is the largest Pass Labs dealer-- I think in the world.

3.  If you decide to skip the Pass recommendation, buy used-- without question.  There are a ton of unrealistic, and a few realistic, sellers right here on Audiogon.  When you find a realistic seller, you need to be ready to go, though.-- right then and there, or what you are looking at will be gone.

4.  I am a big Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs, Eggglestonworks (speakers), fan.  They all make great sounding, reliable and high quality gear.  And, their products are made in the U.S., which I value, as do many others.

Happy searching and listening.

I auditioned 3 of the amp manufacturers you are considering. The current Pass Int, Accuphase 470 and Lux 509X.  All had a unique sound unsurprisingly and I liked them all for different reasons. The Pass for its control over the bottom end, the Luxman for its top end texture. I now own the Accuphase e-470. It was the sweet spot for me. I use it to drive Dyn Contour s5.4 (87db). It has a very musical sound on the slightly warm side.  I am very happy with the e-470.  The e-480 is also about to be released.  Try before you buy. If you can’t get them home, audition with components with similar characteristics to those you intend to pair with in your own environment.  Happy hunting and enjoy the auditioning. 

For your speakers the Pass Labs X350.8 will do quite well. It has considerable power while staying in Class A most of the time.
I suggest pairing a tube amp with it. You will be amazed.

Lots of great options for you to consider. I am currently running  separates but very impressed with many of the new integrated options from Moon (600i  and 700i), Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, top Allnic tube integrated, Esoteric. These will compete with many separates at similar price point, save you money on cables, less room etc. Best wishes

if your speakers are fine w a stout 75w amp I think you’ll be doing yourself a disservice if you don’t at least consider one of the ARC Ref 75’s always available here for about 50% off. A truly great tube amp with plenty of drive for a reasonably efficient speaker. Watt for watt competive with just about anything and at 4k (non se)for a used unit plenty left for a great pre.
I bought a used one on a lark just to try a tube amp and smile every time i turn it on. 

Accuphase + JBL is an intriguing combination.

Only reason I posted is because I have the same speakers as the OP and the McIntosh amp I use works very well. It’s all about synergy. But Lizzie says my amp sucks, so never mind. 

Jeez!

I think I’m done with Audiogon. It seems to be a very unfriendly place, too many opinionated,closed minded and combative types. It’s a hobby, supposedly for fun. Nothing fun going on here. 
Over and out.

Sorry I upset you tiong. I am even sorry I was so cruel about MAC gear. I should say I find MAC transistor gear under-performing in a price to benefit way. Older MAC tube gear is not part of my general rant against MAC gear. I get upset when folks say Bryston is sterile sounding. Well yeah, maybe 30 years ago. Not today.               
But I do not say I am going to 'shoot myself in the foot' over it. Usually just saying, that is a mis -statement, I find blah blah blah to be true, not blah blah blahbla. See, easy. I am only cruel sometimes. Usually I am very nice... in a cruel person's way of being nice...

I am in a similar process as the OP but unfortunately my budget process is to be literally as cheap as possible.  My speakers will be Legacy Aeris which has the bass section powered by Class D amps. 

I have gathered one integrated Class A SET amp Line Magnetic LM 508ia 2x48 Watts @ 16 to 4 Ohm. 

I am at this point considering a Hypex NC500 based Class D from Nord / Apollon etc which is rated at 700 Watts @ 4 Ohm and 550 Watts @ 2 Ohm.

One Class A/B amp like Coda 5.5/12.5/Ts with high Class A bias up-to 40 watts and very economical or Audio-gd Master 2H mono blocks which are over done for the price and great measurements (and I have used Kingwa's products before so not worried about it).

And the final amp but in a class of its own with respect to measurements is Benchmark AHB2. If required 2 Benchmark amps each in bridged mode, but going to start with one. Since it seems to be able to be at lowest distortion from first 0.1 Watt till clipping.

So Class A vs Class A/B (high/low bias) vs Class D (Hypex NC500) vs Class Benchmark.

I would like to know how the OP would like to audition?.

I am thinking of input from other folks i.e crowd sourcing the listening impressions. I can get a Binaural l microphone and select various sound clips and present them in a way no one will know (including me) when using the interface to pick X vs Y, i.e which clip sounds good i.e which amp is better. I am hoping to get a large enough diverse sample, which I think will help answer many outstanding questions regarding amps. 

At this point my bias is that at normal listening levels there should not be any differences heard. Just stating my bias but I am open to what ever the results say.

It seems to be most of the listening session will use between 0.1 Watts to 32 Watts. So most amplifiers, for my speakers and listening distance, expect LM 508ia rest of them have a lot of headroom. So I am expecting more distortion from LM 508ia when compared to others.

Any Pass Labs class AB amplifier.  Even though class A is better in sound, its efficiency is very low and it generates enormous heat.  Therefore I am doubtful about the long term reliability of their class A products.  Heat & electronics, especially capacitors simply dont go together.  You dont want to take your $10k amp to repair every 2 years.

Just a funny mention about Class A and Pass. Read somewhere fellow bought four Pass amps, Big class A amps. He was letting the break in, so he left them on for the whole time... Until he got the electric bill and it was $900 more than usual. (The heat had to be sucked away by the air conditioning, besides the amps)
Suffice to say he shut them off. I do not know if he kept them.
In passing, My little Forte’ 4a amp raised my electric bill ten bucks a month to be left on 24/7. My current stuff adds $30 month to my bill. Left on 24/7 and no class A amp here.

Therefore I am doubtful about the long term reliability of their class A products. 

Nelson's heat sink practice. On a normal 25c day to be able to keep palms of the hands on the hottest part of the heat-sink for at least 6 seconds before becoming uncomfortable, this is around 60c (brick layers need not apply) which will have no reliability problems.

Cheers George  

Georgehifi, I am NOT talking about the heatsinks.  Open the box and measure how hot the TRANSFORMER is and MORE IMPORTANTLY, how hot the smoothing CAPACITORS are.  Semiconductors dont die of heat so quickly but CAPACITORS DO (VERY QUICKLY).  Read about their lifetimes from the manufacturers.  Those typically last about 200,000 hours at 40 degrees C and about 2000 hours only at 85 degrees C.  Even the BEST quality smoothing electrolytics (most likely Nichicons) that can go up to 105 degrees C wont last more than 3000 or so hours.  Those are about $300 a piece and changing 4 will set u back about $1000 every couple of years.

Georgehifi, I am NOT talking about the heatsinks.

Knowing Pass amps very well, the hottest part will be the output transistors junction temp, and heatsinks, everything else inside will be fine.

 Those are about $300 a piece and changing 4 will set u back about $1000 every couple of years.

This total scare mongering of Pass Amps, and you need to be gagged. 
  
I've built monster 2 man lift water cooled pure Class-A amps up to 150w, I know that Nelson would never design anything that would compromise the longevity of the internal components, they will be cooler than the heatsink temperature. So you can buy them in total confidence d2girls  .

Cheers George   

 @elizabeth you should listen to an Ayre KX-R
gives my ref5se a serious run for the money......
and i am running a hyper nice rare Tung Sol in the power supply....

@d2girlzzzzzzzzzzs. check out NAIM...really wake up those JBL with some JUMP factor drive......

ditto on Nelson....i have owned a ton of his gear over the years..pretty much bullet proot

T-200 running brothers Vandersteen 3aSignature at the moment.....effortless DRIVE

 @geek101 sounds like we will be helping you pick what sounds best thru your microphone....i have a really nice microphone collection........imo the Benchmark is silly good......

I am not scaremongering.  I am actually suggesting that Pass is one of the BEST amps around.  Just warning that class A runs HOT and will inevitably be less reliable in the long run. And therefore suggesting the class AB.

Kinda like the turbo charged cars.  U dont see them on the road much after 5-6 years ;)

@tomic601 I do not think a single microphone will cut it. A true binaural recording of good quality can only capture the room, speakers and the rest of the chain in a good dynamic range. And the listener has to use headphones (good ones I presume) to make out any differences. 

Thanks for your vote regarding the Benchmark. I will post my impressions shortly once I get it delivered.

 

@cakyol that would mean buying Class A solid state amp used can be a problem?.

I can say in day to day use any electronics that run hot get annoying for that reason soon enough. A hot Summer day, Air conditioning going full blast and you want to listen to some music. but DON'T because the amps or whatever are blazing hot to run??? Then the folks who own a second amp for Summer use? Because the favorite is a furnace? Reason enough to avoid Class A amplifiers and big tube amps.

looking for amps or anything else is not as simple as it appears. ordinarily.

settling the electrical mating of amp and speakers is top priority. that part seems settled 

given the chosen speakers have great eff.

 

I’ve found thru the years amps like other gear are separated into teirs or levels, by price, usually.  $500 to $1500; $2K to $4K; $5K to $9K; $10K to $16K; and above 16Kt he diffs as with each level become slighter. Depending on topology. naturally, comparisons       in the various  groups  has to be with likewise topologies. tubes vs tubes, SS v SS, etc. 

hearing someone considering either a tube or SS or Digi power source seems to indicate that someone is not entirely settled on the ‘type’ of sound they really want. . , or could be happy either way, this is of course, OK too. but at some point a choice must be made between the type of sound, and IMHO, then the type of amp one desires. gets easier.

subs can bolster tube amp bottom ends. but that means mo’ money! personally I adore tubes though I would miss SS attributes now and then if a desire to kick out some AC DC overwhelms me. and it does now and then.

no one has said anything about weight.  in past years the dry weight of an amp or amps carried some uh, weight of its own, allying better builds with heavier amps, all else being equal.

I know what some Pass Labs XA amps weigh, and two of ‘em weigh more. then there’s the amp stands too. and power cords double if you go with monos.

 I think most audio nuts should have two setups. an all tube affair, and an all SS or digi arrangement. 

one of the best rigs I put together was a top quality tube pre, and a mid level $6K SS amp. it worked well with any sort of music IMO. then I went all in on tubes. whoa. I allowed for its short comings with aC DC and was very, very happy.      even with big band jazz. but that’s just me.

some wisdom has already been dropped here in doing the ‘audiogon shuffle’. buy, try, flip, and possibly, repeat.

it could well beat plunking down a ton on something and being even a wee bit remorseful later.

doing the ‘shuffle’ gives ya some perspective on the house sound of various makers gear.  that experience may conme in handy. later, or may not if you choose to mix houses in the power train, ala one brand  pre, another brand amp.

very good luck on your quest, whatever you decide.

Regarding the long-term reliability of Pass class A amplifiers, the following statement appears in the manual for the XA200.5 and for various other high powered Pass amplifiers operating in class A:

So how long will this hardware last? It is our experience that, barring abuse or the odd failure of a component, the first things to go will be the power supply capacitors, and from experience, they will last 15 to 30 years.  Fortunately they die gracefully and are easily replaced by a good technician.


After that, the longevity will depend upon the number of operating thermal cycles, but we can say that we have had amplifiers operating in the field in excess of 20 years with no particular mortality, and we don’t have good information beyond that.


More to the point, you should not worry about it. This is a conservatively built industrial design, not a frail tube circuit run on the brink of catastrophic failure. If it breaks, we will simply get it fixed, so sleep well.

Given Nelson Pass' sterling reputation, I see no reason to doubt that statement.

Regards,
-- Al

I can say in day to day use any electronics that run hot get annoying for that reason soon enough. A hot Summer day, Air conditioning going full blast and you want to listen to some music. but DON'T because the amps or whatever are blazing hot to run??? Then the folks who own a second amp for Summer use? Because the favorite is a furnace? Reason enough to avoid Class A amplifiers and big tube amps.

@elizabeth
There is no need for air conditioning to control the heat of the room when hot amplifiers are in use! A simple means of dealing with that is to install a vent and fan system, using flexible ductwork and  a low speed fan that runs silent. The vents are installed above the space where the amplifiers reside. The heat goes up and out the vents. Cheap, efficient and effective.

I have a customer in Guatemala that does this with our MA-3 power amps (triode class A 500 watts) and without any air conditioning at all and his listening room stays comfortable 24/7. He hid the vents in the ceiling along with his lighting by using a teak lattice (teak is cheap in central America) which looks quite nice. The vent setup cost him about $200.00 and can't be heard.

How about PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Preamplifier and M700 monoblocks for under $5000, plus you can return them in 30 days for full refund? They also make a stereo version amp if you don’t need as much power. I just bought a SGC preamp, installed it Saturday and it sounds incredible, so much so that I want to try their monoblocks too. I have resisted the temptation to accept, let alone try, Class D amps in my system but I think they may have gotten it right on these amps.

Stay tuned...but, what can you lose except a little time having fun?

Oh, and I forgot to mention, built in Boulder, CO.

@elizabeth - bravo, congrats, hurrah! 
Finally, some common sense approach to this mostly illogical hobby of ours!
"The grass is NOT greener in unknown products"
"Buy what you heard and like"
"Spending megabucks and being disappointed AGAIN...THAT is the audiophile mantra"
"They are never satisfied..."

However, I do like Mac gear. Otherwise, I agree with you completely and applaud your honest and refreshingly candid post.

Tom

With Nagra Classic preamp best choice is Luxman M-900u, much better than Pass IMO.

Stick with the Kinki and judge how it sounds when you get your Audience speaker cables. It might surprise you.

Don't put the amp in the cart before the Kinki horse. 😄

All the best,
Nonoise

I would certainly include the Ayre AX-5 at that price point. I also like the sound of ARC gear but not sure about their integrated amp.

It bogles my mind when amps reach $20k putting out mere 300 watts @ 4 Ohm or sometimes even less. I am beginning to wonder if high end amps are like the magical cables that cost multiple $k.

What is the engineering innovation does a $20k amp demand?. If amp can put out 10,000 watts for $20k I understand, someone wants to go deaf after spending lot of money, or likes melting the speaker drivers for fun. Even $10k for an amp putting out less than 300 watts at @ 4 Ohm just does not make sense to me.

I guess I will never know unless I win a lottery.

D2girls.....check out the Raven Audio website.  Then call Dave Thomson, who is the owner.  Listen to his story.  I did.  I purchased the Raven Integrated Reflection MK2 tube amp.  Everyday when I listen to music I just smile.  

Add Rogers Fidelity to the list.  Very impressed.

If we are just throwing ideas hoping one will stick... I wish I had the chance to try the Carver Crimson 350 Raven monoblocks. They are the only amps I would like to try besides just buying a Bryston Cubed something. Pair of 7B3s or a 14B3

Ditto Rogers Fidelity...made in USA, lifetime warranty, hand wired, looks cool (a fact), and I've heard 'em...know people who own them, and if I wasn't happy with my Dennis Had Firebottle amp I'd buy one tomorrow. Expensive, but possibly worth every penny. Note that Class A solid state amps are really going for that wonderful tube sound...so use tubes instead and you're there!