I would find a used REL Britania series B2 or B3. Much better sub than RELs new series. |
You can get a new Rythmik F15 for under 1K, plus shipping. An F12 is even less. |
Those Gallo cylindrical subs are quite good. |
I'm with Schubert on this. The Gallo subs are superior to any sub I've ever had including REL. They are also more compact than almost any other sub if that is important to you. |
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Iv'e been reading a lot of reviews on psa subs made and assembled in Ohio, and Mj acoustics.From what I read mj acoustics is like what rel used to be. |
Rhythmik is a line not talked about much that has some unique technology to recommend itself. I know at least one or two around these parts with good taste I'd sy that like them a lot. |
I also use a Gallo sub but thought I'd get laughed off the site for suggesting it. It replaced a sub that was three times as expensive and within the first five minutes of use I thought it was a much better fit.
My other suggestion would be a James Loudspeaker sub. I owned an EMB-1000 a few years ago and it was fantastic. That sub always comes to mind when the "what piece do you regret selling" thread pops up. |
I replaced a REL Storm III with two 12" DIY Rythmik subs and cannot speak highly enough. For the price of the Rel I bought the two kits. And cannot speak highly enough about using two subs vs one. |
Start out with one of these pre owned and add another later
the units ship at 103 pounds weight ea and will out music anything listed above I promise.
The real advantage is a smoother in room response and blending your existing speakers by High passing your mains will dramatically clear up your whole system.
JohnnyR
Vandersteen dealer
http://vandersteen.com/products/model-2w-series-subwoofers |
I use Rythmik subs and can absolutely second the recommendation, but I'd also think hard about the SVS dual SB-1000 offer. A pair of sealed SVS subs with 12" drivers at $950 is probably a great way to maximize your chances of getting great sound, because A) SVS makes a very highly regarded product and B) dual subs offer a lot of placement flexibility (which really improves your chances of smooth, well integrated bass response).
Good luck |
YEs, two good subs are almost always better/easier than one. |
I'm liking what i see with psa subs, anyone own one? |
Or maybe I can look into getting my rel fixed, the problem it is having is while watching a movie, tv or gaming it rattles. with music its fine, idk if its the bottom driver thats bad? or something else? but the cost of repair could out weigh getting a new sub. I know I won't be buying a rel again at 1k I only got 5yrs out of it. and rel's customer support sucks! |
I have a REL and I like it a lot. Hsu subs would probably be my second choice. Yea, they're made in Red China and that sucks, that's the reason I went with the REL. The Hsu VTF series has a lot of control built into them. Bass ports, you can plug one or both with the supplied plugs. They also, have a Q control which can help get the tight sound you may want. Just a thought. |
Did you tighten the bolts for the driver and all the other stuff? They can get loose after a while. |
Jughead-
go w/ another REL- these subwoofer(s) are the best in the business! A sonic match for your current speakers. Keep me posted & happy listening! |
I have tightened all 5000 bolts on driver and amp, still the same result. like i said with music its fine, with movies and games that's when the rattle starts.why would this be? and yes i agree with music the rel blends well with my mozarts but why can't it handle the low frequencies from movies or the ps4? could the bottom driver be bad? rel tech support can't seem to help with this question nor do they seem to care. |
I just lost a detailed post for the OP to use as he see's fit, but I'm not going to sit here to 'hunt & peck' to retype it. Short version, is I recommend you look into HSU, SVS or Rythmik. Those companies will have what you need to play the mega bass in the movies like you desire. I believe you can easily do it for under a $1000. I have found that the HSU VTF series will give you the most flexibility and the best chance of reproducing the bass as you like it. The biggest reason I didn't go with a Hsu sub, is they are built in Red China and when I can find an alternative to China I take it.
I would use the REL you have now strictly for music as you said it works ok, on music.
Good luck, |
I've narrowed it down to SVS and PSA. I like the psa because its made and assembled in Ohio, WOW! 100% american made. SVS I can find nice ones on ebay for good prices. i'm gonna try one last thing with my REL SVS makes some isolation feet for 50 bucks with a 30 day in home trial if they dont work i'm out nothing if they do work then it's 50 bucks instead of 800. |
About the only thing that comes to mind for me is that it could be the driver's internal speaker leads from the voice coil that are soldered to the driver's input connectors (or binding posts, if equipped). Generally as woofers age these bare, braided wire leads can, over the years, get looser, more flexible and flop around a bit more during excursion than when new. The leads themselves should be designed to be long enough to allow for maximum excursion and also short enough to prevent slapping against the back of the cone (or something else back there). It doesn't happen all the time, but I know it has come up once or twice before in regard to heavy excursion...in your case, think very low bass response at higher SPL...as in, as you say, HT and gaming, maybe?? A possibility anyway. Maybe the best way to confirm that would be visually somehow, but I can't think of a foolproof way at the moment to do so...although you could try removing the driver temporarily with it still hooked up and play some of the offending bass through it and look behind the cone in action to see if it's a possibility, even though the woofer will no doubt behave at least somewhat differently when unloaded from the box. Best of luck, whatever the cause. |
Ivan reminded me that I had a similar problem. Stated less well than he did, the wires from the internal amplifier to the speaker terminals had basically shifted inside the subwoofer, after about 15 years of use. So the wires actually rested close to or against the speaker cone. And only when played at loud volume they made a sound that was more like a rattle than what it really was. Opened it up, shifted the wire away from the cone and perfect.
George |
Did you open up the amp or the driver? I will deff give this a shot nothing to really lose either way. |
pulled the driver and amp off did not notice any obstruction or anything that looked unusual. I have the isolation feet coming in the mail we'll see if that works? my gut feeling is that it wont.either something is wrong with the sub or it just can't handle the low freq. think i'll be going with the psa sub not sure which model yet. |
To my surprise the isolation feet worked. rattle is gone. |
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well the rel went back to the rattling when the frequency gets to low the t1 cant hang, its a wimp! so I went with the psa xs15se which has a 15 inch driver with a down firing driver and a 550 watt dsp. I would think in my room this sub will dig deep! and the customer support at psa is second to none, so far.i'll have the psa by tue so i'll keep everyone posted on how it performs. |
Try a Monitor Audio Radius 390. It is one of the fastest sub's under 1 grand. In reviews people are very positive. The timing and control is awesome. It is fast as a rocket, with stunning looks! |
Thanks for the input but the psa sub is on it's way. I think this sub will give thunderous bass with good control and punch for music! and it's getting excellent reviews. one of the guys who started psa was the v in svs subs,and is a guru of sub tech.I got the the psa for 750 shipped, I don't think I can touch a sub of this quality brand new, used maybe but not new. 1 inch mdf instead of 3/4 550 watts 15 inch driver = 72lbs of BOOM!! |
I depends were you will use it for. For music I would never choose for a bass reflsex subwoofer. Speed is the most important parts. This most common mistake I see at clients is that they buy a big subwoofer. It is not about the size and freq. respons. The best subwoofers are always those who have the best response. A better timing gives you a superior level in integration. Audio is al about looking further! |
Well the one thing iv'e learned about this hobby is no matter what you buy you're wrong in someone's eye's. this sub will be part of a ht setup as well, and what iv'e found is the small fast subs cannot handle the low freq of movies or gaming threw the ps4 without breaking up and rattling.when I game or watch movies i want the bass to be thunderous,when i listen to the red hot chili peppers i want fleas bass to thump my chest, the smaller subs don't that. i will always go for the v8 over the 4 cylinder. |
It depends were you use it for, but these sub's are not that fast. I demo and compare subwoofers for timing and integration. On the other hand I want to use them till at least 120 hz. With Audyssey you can easily get a very good level of integration with a subwoofer. Above 80hz low freq. become physical. Beside this you get a more deep stage as well. In the pastI sold many rel subwoofers. We never went further than 70hz. These days some subwoofers use material and magnets so you can use them easily till 120hz or even higher. In all my tests this makes a big positive difference. |
Well all I can say my rel t1 is a pooch! I have it set so low in order to avoid an extreme rattle a may as well not have it on, in fact i just turn it off while playing call of duty, watching movies and even with tv. so what good is this fast sub? with music it's ok, and that's all it is. i think the psa will be fine, if not i have a 30 day in home trial shipping free both way's. so what's to lose? do I think there are better subs? of course! am I going to pay 1500 +? nope! and this this t1 would fall apart at 120hz. |
Claiming a "big positive difference" from using a sub for higher frequencies than around 50 to 60hz requires further explanation, and I hope there isn't anything of the sort forthcoming from the strange paragon of self parody that is Bo. |
Yeah i'm not sure what you mean bo? But imo I think music should not only be heard but it should be felt. The best live concert I ever saw was in cedar rapids Iowa and the band was Tool 10,000 days tour,I was setting in the upper bowl straight back of the stage the bass response in this auditorium is unreal thumps your chest and rattles your seat, don't worry I could hear the pings and tings as well.my point is without this thunderous bass the concert would have been blah! this auditorium didn't use subs and amps that were just enough! they have more power and bigger drivers than what they need,just like most of our home setups.my main amp is way more than what I need my main speakers are more than what I need so why should my sub be less? |
The idea's to use it higher than 80hz came from Audyssey. To be honest I never went higher than 80hz. So it was complete new for me. I thought it would not make a big difference. But I was wrong. The overall sound became more involving, stage depth became even bigger. Sharper individual focus of instruments and voices. I started at 120 hz, at the end I stopped at 140hz. The thing what is important that you need subwoofers with a fast response. This depends about the material use of a manufacturer. And also the magnet is important for the control as the amp which is used.
These days I set most subwoofers till 120hz of my clients. Audio always will be about quality and comparing. When I would have followed all rules in audio I would never be were I am now.Looking for a higher endresult in sound time and testing is needed.
Low freq. are very easy to be explained why they have such a big influence. When the freq. goes deeper, there will be more emotion. It is that simple. Ofcourse a concert without a deep low freq. is useless! |
And I think the psa can do this and not break a sweat, the rel t1 can't. the rel blends well with the main speakers because I have everything set so low you can't feel or hear it anyway.You have to keep in mind one of the founders of psa was the v in svs, I think they know how to build a sub that's not only fast and responsive and that you can feel,the rel t1 falls short. now if I spent 3k on a rel I think i'd get fast deep bass. I'm good spending 750 shipped I think there's no way i'll be disappointed in this sub. and their customer support is outstanding! rels customer support sucks! I ran into the same thing when buying an amp, mccormack, krell, mcintosh, so on and so on. I ended up with Parasound a21 and i'm sure it's not as fast and controlled as the other amps and whatever audiophile jargon you want to throw at it and measurements you can't hear or see but know it's there.in other words i'm fine with my amp and i'll be fine with the psa. |
"Fast response" from woofers is another example of audio nonsense...all woofers get the signal at the same time as the main speakers, there is no significant measurable delay related to cone material, magnets, or woofer amps, and there is pretty much no reason to put subs into the lower midrange unless your main speakers are very limited in range...tiny...really tiny. |
Wolfie is telling his bullshit again. When you compare
subwoofers in timing and speed there are clear differences.
The subwoofers with a faster response, better amps and better
magnets can be used to a much higher freq. response against
those who are slower and are less controlled.
Wolfie is using a more than 10 years old Rel Q150 subwoofer.
When it came out, It was a very nice subwoofer. I sold a lot
of them. ( I prefer closed subwoofers with frontfiring) But we
are now living in 2014. The quality has changed a lot. There
are now different rules and possibilities compared to the
past. |
A subs job is to go BOOM! right? iv'e only owned 2 subs the rel and a b&w, and with the b&w sub I never noticed any lag. In fact I had it in a spot that was outta sight and others would compliment my main speakers on having such good bass response, they didn't know I had a sub in the mix. as long as i'm running low pass and start at 80hz threw my pre amp I think it'll blend in just fine. |
Jughead, subs do a lot more than just go boom. Really good subs can be crossed over very high as long as they are integrated well. They can add unbelievable stage depth and realism. Gun shots in movies can have a startling effect and really fill the room. The timing of the high passed sub relative to the front mains is critical. So moving subs around the room,setting delays, eq,s, room correction all have a huge impact on frequency in the room which will in effect have a big impact on imaging. Bone crushing bass can start as high as 200hz and it's obvious Bo has played with these higher frequencies and room correction.
The other thing a good sub can do which is very important is take the load off your amp. 80hz is still a good load for most amps and speakers. IMO, sealed subs are the way to go. |
Speakers and subs can function and sound differently of course, but "timing" and "speed" are useless terms often used by technically challenged gasbags like Bo, who seems to lack the ability or actual knowledge to explain himself. I'm not sure what Bo means by his use of the term "speed" in the context of subs having a "higher frequency response", and I seriously doubt anybody else understands him either...subs shouldn't generally be required to produce a midrange frequency response as that can lead to phase and other issues (and generally sounds like crap), and is absolutely not necessary in the real world to reproduce musical low frequencies to blend with most "main" speakers...My little REL works perfectly reproducing the frequencies I require of it (when it doesn't I'll replace it), happens to be as technically modern as pretty much anything new (according to what I've heard from newer designs in various systems as well as in shops like nearby Goodwin's, as well as comments from some of their sales dudes who do have some expertise from years of selling sophisticated gear), and all sorts of "paper" cone drivers are utilized in newer speaker designs that sound fabulous, although perhaps not in Bo's seriously narrow little world. |
I should have the psa sub today,and i'm sure it'll give me what I need "speed, timing" and everything in between.I think for ht it'll give me that thunder i'm looking for, and that punch i'm looking for in music to make it sound live and alive.tell you what I think this pm wolf, though it may take a few days to get it set up. and of course so called breakin? |
The psa is a sealed down fire sub, and I understand a sub does more than go boom. imaging and thunderous bass is what I said I was looking for all along,and so far the psa has delivered. I'm plugged into my p5's low pass at 80hz and the explosions and gunfire from the ps4 while playing cod advanced warfare is unreal! I have 29 more day's in home trial to really get to know it and hear what music is like.so far I listened to 1 cd avenged sevenfolds heil to the king and the sub blended in well with my main speakers. |
all still sounds good with the psa music has depth and nice punch and ht duty is where it really shines, it's driving my wife nuts she say's it sounds like a war zone upstairs! I don't think I have it placed in the right spot yet still trying to find that sweet spot. But for 750 delivered and being brand new I don't think you can beat it svs sb 2000 maybe? The only think I don't like about the psa is it's size it's a beast! but that's the only problem I find can find with it. |
200hz is bone crushing lower midrange. |
Good powered subs do bass best. Whether its needed or not depends on all the rest.
Lots of good subs for use with monitors and other speakers with limited bass extension available for under $1000.
If speakers are more full range to start with, then you need a bigger sub that is also good quality and can cover from your crossover point down to 20hz or so, in order to be considered "full range" in regards to what most people can clearly hear. There are fewer to choose from here for under $1000, but still many good choices I think.
Where to crossover will depend case by case on speakers ability to cover higher bass frequencies versus the subs. A good sub that can do it all well from 20 hz up past the range that most good speakers can cover well will be rarer.
And yes, adding a sub and lessening the bass demand for the amps driving the mains is pretty much always a good thing and benefits everything, not just the bass. If done right of course.
If you can find two good subs to fit the bill within budget, then two subs are always better than one for delivering balanced bass response throughout the room.
And 4 are better than two for that.
It never ends for an audiophile, but probably significant diminishing returns after that. |
Rythmik by all means....I'm an acoustic designer and have placed Rythmik subs in more than a dozen professional recording studios and audiophile rooms, and smoke anything else near their price. |
Rythmik by all means....I'm an acoustic designer and have placed Rythmik subs in more than a dozen professional recording studios and audiophile rooms, and smoke anything else near their price. |
I have considered upping my budget to 1500 for a sub but will the extra 700 dollars over the price of the psa make that much more of an impact? and at 1500 I could go with the svs sb13 ultra which looks like a real nice sub, but will it out perform the psa which is 700 dollars cheaper? they both have in home trials, I guess I could order the svs and compare it to the psa. I agree the rythmik subs are awesome! |
