Which Class D Amplifier? PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrill or other???

georgehifi,

       I thought you knew that I'm not, and have never been, a retailer.  I'm just a 60 yr old music, ht and audio/video equipment enthusiast in Indiana.
      I am a big fan of class D amps (I own ClassD Audio, Emerald Physics and D-Sonic amps) and distributed bass array systems (I own the Audio Kinesis Debra) but have no affiliations with any of these companies or any other companies.  Now, if you want to accuse me of being a fan boy of either, I definitely plead guilty.
     I understand it's bad form to post here without declaring you're a retailer, dealer, owner or associated with any of these.  I've never self promoted anything since I've never had anything to promote besides products or technologies I have personal experience with and consider of high quality.
     If you're going to accuse me or anyone else of self promoting, please don't do it on nothing more than a hunch and have the good sense and courage to present your allegations in a more direct and responsible manner.
 
Thank you,
Tim 

"So wrong! So obvious!" 
Just have a lot at his self promoting on other threads and you’ll see what I mean. Just like two other retailers here.

georgehifi,

     Sorry, I didn't take anything you stated as a payout.

Tim

yes so I continued the payout.

Cheers George

georgehifi,

     But did you enjoy my cheeky monkey comment about the earmuffs, mate?

Love,
Sunshine

Oh dear, sunshine, I’m referring to the post above yours.
(so wrong , so obvious) like two other retailers are doing

georgehifi,
     
     Mate,  I can only infer you're projecting and embarrassed because you leave your earmuffs on indoors, too.
 Love,
  Tim

So wrong! So obvious!

lol

    When he came into the store and out of the cold, did he take off his earmuffs?

Tim

@toetapaudio:

I had a client replace his $18000 Mola Mola Kaluga amps with one of my $999 Icepower 1200AS based amps. And he now has better sound. He liked them so much he bought 4 in total. So at 18x the price, and worse sound, I wouldn't consider them a bargain. 

Tweak 1: That has been exactly my experience too now with three months into enjoying the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC preamp/M700 monoblocks combo, in my case driving/feeding Thiel CS2.4s and two SVS SB2000 subs.

twoleftears

Apparently they were driven by Triangle Art class A monos. I'm getting the sense that the harshness we both heard was mostly endemic to the speakers themselves. Now that you said that, I would really like to hear the Merrill amps with a more neutral speaker.

I don't know what they were driving the Muraudio with at CAF (last Nov.) but the sound was barely tolerable.  First of all, overly loud for the small hotel room; second on the jazz trumpet piece, the higher notes on the trumpet just seared my ears.  Had to leave, fast.  It was even unpleasant out in the hallway.

Now, after a solid week of further break in of the M700s + Stellar GC dac/pre, I invited a friend over with a ton of live music experience. He heard the system with the Audio Alchemy kit, and did not hold back his valid criticisms. He did not hear the system with the AA PS 5 power supply, which did make a huge difference, but still, nothing like now with the PS Audio. There’s just no substitute for raw horsepower (AND POSSIBLY SOME REFINEMENT IN THE GC VOLUME CONTROLLER AND/OR ITS INTERNAL DAC’)

My friend is a rocker: Me, not so much, but I have enough to satisfy an occasional itch, so, first up was SVA (Stevie Raye Vaughn) volume was cranked to concert equivalent level and wow, wow, wow;.My $2500 Emerald Physics KCIIs dealt t with no strain. SVA was followed by Peter Gabriel "Secret World Live" This was followed by Tina Turner ’Private Dancer’ then The Pointer Sisters Greatest hits .

In all cases the music was seamless, bass, brass, and drums had ample tonality and packed a mean ass punch (WITHOUT USING MY SUBS NO LESS) not a hole I could detect, and my friend couldn’t stop repeating many accolades, even during songs, which irrates me to no end

My next move is a big step up the EP speaker line

hth

That's great that others heard good things in that room. When I walked in they had some string chamber music playing that sounded pretty nice, but a bit on the etched end of the spectrum but nothing offensive. Someone requested Steely Dan - I think they played Babylon Sisters. That track sent me from the room. Steely Dan is some of the best recorded pop out there and this system was very far from neutral reproducing it. Instrumental timbres were off, lacking in realistic body, size and overtones. It reminds me of the old days of hifi where certain systems excel at only certain genres. Silly.

Blindjim, On another thread tonight.

"merril audio had his christine pre and 116 monos driving Muraudio Stats and that sound was so real it was scary. no embelishments or exaggerations here! items in the sound scape were tangibly and naturally presented. fascinating. really."

Maybe others who heard it will chime in. I had high hopes as I've been wanting to hear Merrill for awhile now and the speakers seemed intriguing at least. Unfortunately the synergy was not there at all with this system to my ears. I would like to hear the Merrill amps on speakers I'm more familiar. 

I heard the Muraudio room in Florida and it sounded incredibly shrill and thin

Well that doesn't sound very good.

I heard the Muraudio room in Florida and it sounded incredibly shrill and thin on anything besides chamber music. On the other hand, one of the most musical rooms I heard at the show was the unassuming MOFI system with Falcon LS3/5's and a Dr. Feickert TT powered by the very fine sounding new Primare I25. 

Stringreen5, Were the Merrill amps you heard the Element model (GaN)? Did you hear them in the Muraudio room at the Florida show?

George I deleted it to be nice and to not get involved in the pissing contest anymore, but here we are.  But I still would put forth you have absolutely 0 chance of hearing what you claim is a serious downfall of current class D. 

Hey, you started the attack, not me.

Then this, that I noticed you quickly deleted. You’ve deserved everything I"ve said

clarinetmonster2 03-02-2019 8:56pm EST To quote you:The bad being "switching frequency noise".Now put your money where your mouth is and show us that you can hear "switching frequency noise" in a blind test. Pretty cut and dry.

So, George, notice that I didn't call your posts tedious, just the constant back and forth. So thank you so much for the personal attack. Much appreciated big guy.

I heard the Merrill.....wonderful.....you really wouldn't know it was Class D.  Smooth, delicate, powerful, expensive.

georgehifi,

     I disagree with you all the time and your posts are tedious sometimes.      Despite it all, I still love ya, mate.


Tim

really! water off a ducks back, if anyone believes in snake oil, voodoo ect such as fuses, mains leads ect ect.
Instead of what all good equipment was built using, EE laws, measurements, bench tests ec ect. I rather not have them as as you say "my fans" it's detrimental to what I believe.

Cheers George

George, you have lost another fan here. I don’t bother to read any of your posts. Using knowledge as a hammerhead is a bore mate.

I've looked at some of your other posts, and my reply is.
 
Tedious maybe to those that have no understanding of it's technology. 
If you don't have the technical ability to see what the new GaN technology is all about, then it's best if you don't even comment on it, as it shows a large degree of incomprehension.

I have read through a fair amount of this thread but the back and forth between George and others became pretty tedious. I think the only solution to the "current class D is dandy" and the "current class D is too flawed to compete with A or A/B" war is this: A blind test - perhaps ABX if possible set up for George and or any proponents on the other side of this disagreement. If George can tell the difference between quality class D and class A/B amps in a blind test then his assertion would hold more merit for me. I don't own class D currently, FYI. 

@tweak1 which break in disc's are you using? 
Thanks
Chris

Cyloc, as a very happy owner of M700s paired with Stellar GC, 200 hours isn't near enough, unless break in is with a break in disc. Im looking forward to his response

And yes, cables & ICs matter- A LOT. 

Last night I spun The Eagles The Very Best Of ( 2 CDs). CD -1 was not well recorded, but dics 2 was, and the best Ive ever heard it sound by a wide margin

"Also, because an amp uses GaN doesn’t necessarily make it better."

Hello toetapaudio,

     I mostly agree with georgehifi on this one.  The critical factor is eliminating or significantly reducing dead time which reduces distortion.  

     The use of GaN FETs, rather than silicon MOSFETs, is one method of doing this that seems like the method most companies are utilizing.
     The only exception I'm aware of is Ralph at Atma-Sphere that is developing their own version of a high quality class D amp.  Ralph has announced that they developed their own circuitry that eliminates dead time whether utilizing MOSFETs or GaN FETs.  They have a patent application pending on this circuitry.
      However, I believe Ralph stated that using GaN FETs along with his new circuitry would likely just further enhance his amp's sq performance.

     Either way, dead time is going to be dead as disco. 

Tim

Also, because an amp uses GaN doesn’t necessarily make it better.

But one that does will make it better sounding than the "equal" one that doesn't,  if both come from the same manufacture using the same topology, save for the output stage (GaN against Mosfet).

Just like:  Plasma v LCD v LED v OLED, Iphone 4 v 5 v 6 ect ect
Better technology in the parts = better sound in the end for Class-D.
 
Cheers George 

 

my experience in owning= Lamm ML2.1 M2.1 M1.1 ARC D400Mk2 Music Reference RM9mk2, RM200, Theta Citadel 1.0 &1.5, Rowland 501, ATI mosfet amps, Line Magnetic, Auralic Merak, Classe 400 etc.. I have never cared for latest Mark Levinson, Classe or other bi-polar output amps.

My systems have always required hi-current amplifiers for tough load speakers, Wilson WP7, Maxx1/2/3, Magnepan, Rockports, NHT 3.3.  My latest speakers all drop to 1.7-1.8 ohm in bass region but are nominal 4ohm 89 db Sensitivity.  CAVEAT - This might be why these other digital amps struggle in my system due to power supply designs.

I think you really have to break up digital amps into classes.
If you try a digital amp with less than 200hrs on it, you will be unimpressed they really need break-in time. I found these amps to be hard, with a closed in soundstage and very sterile during break-in.

First off older Digital Class D amps were smooth but sterile ex= Bel Canto, Rowland 201/501, Spectron, etc and really responded to power conditioning.

The Current generation of Digital amps with switching power supplies now are smooth but with faster dynamics but I still find them lacking warmth or emotion. They are attractive to people because they don’t generate heat, use very little power and are cheap. Plus people can put a tube preamp and change cabling to warm it up. It’s amazing what you can buy today compared to 15 years ago.

the 3rd generation uses a combination of amplifier technology and this method I think is a winner. Auralic Merak, Devialet Expert Pro with Roon, PS Audio M700 . These manufactures basically use a variant of Class A driver amp with a Class D Current Output. Best of both worlds in my opinion. Finally, these amps all use high-quality linear power supplies instead of dirty cheap switching power supplies and this is key. To take it up another level I found using a filtering power conditioner like Transparent PIMM dropped the noise floor and solidified imaging even more. My Shunyata Vray makes a larger airy soundstage compared to the solidified Transparent and doesn’t drop the noise floor as much. The latest Devialet with Core Infinity and using Roon over a network eliminated the need for reclockers, usb anti-jitter boxes, and that extra gear. we tried the latest Devialet 140 Expert Pro core Infinity at 4 peoples houses and it wasn’t bright on any system and we were feeding it with a bluesound server and streaming services with Roon. My friend added a Roon server and started streaming that method and everything got cleaned up compared to direct attach. we also found that the 4 sub $300 digital cables all had their own flavors but the Transparent Reference digital cable destroyed them with clarity and no bass bloat. Once again direct attach.

Right now I am waiting on my friend to get 200hrs on his PS Audio M700’s to compare to my Auralic Merak on my Rockports and then compare that to my memory of the Devialet. Also considering the latest Theta’s as my current Theta Cidal 1.5’s are extremely organic but not digital.

I wish this thread talked more about how the amps sounded in their system instead of talking about the chips. The sound is what matters and their synergy with your other gear.

I suggest auditioning the Mola Mola Kulga class D amps for exceptional performance. Hypex 1200 implementation is key, so not all Hypex 1200 amps will  sound the same. Also, because an amp uses GaN doesn’t necessarily make it better.

For great price / performance / sound have a look at Bellisimo Audio. 
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/

Thanks tweak,

I'll take a look at 'em

Update:

I have 2 burn in discs that I use. For some reason I neglected to use them as soon as I inserted the PSA kit. Last night I hit replay all and let one spin for at least 5 hours (muted of course), then again this morning for a couple more. I then played Jennifer Nettles Playing With Fire, which I played the day before the burn in disc. 

Far from erased all issues, BUT, nonetheless an amazing transformation. The entire sound stage is more spread out. The location of musicians and backup singer,s as well as tone and clarity is significantly improved

tweak1,

     Understood.  I no longer listen to Coldplay discs on my home system due to poor recording quality but I still enjoy these discs on my OEM car system.
     I've discovered that music files recorded direct to digital are especially good source material that are consistently well recorded and mastered.  I have several hi-res 24bit/96KHz FLAC files downloaded from a Dutch site called Sound Liaison:
https://www.soundliaison.com/
     
     These are all direct to digital master recordings of live music played at their large studio. Downloads are available in various digital formats from FLAC to DSD.  
     The audio quality is excellent top to bottom with uncompressed dynamics that make them easily sound better than my ripped cds. 

Tim

I wouldn't consider it for a system aspiring to hi-end

 Hattor, and Tortuga aer 2 I highly recommend

Also (and I learned this the hard way) one needs to make sure the impedance is a match

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SMD-Dact-type-Stepped-attenuator-Passive-Preamplifier/192132688811?hash=ite...

Hey Guys,
Any thoughts on this guy's passive pre's?

I was looking at them, it seems he uses high quality SMD Dact style pots; but I'm a little skeptical because of the price. Is it possible the pots he uses are cheap "knock-offs"?
The price-point is really good; but it could be the hint as to what the product really is.
Has anyone tried one of these passives?

I was also looking at the Parasound Zpre3; seems really nice. But I wonder how neutral it is being that it's not a passive type preamp.

Thanks for your thoughts

Tim, of course.

I have a few torture dics- Annie Lennox Annie Lennox (solo) Jennifer Nettles Playing With Fire and Wilson Philips. It had been a couple weeks since playing JN and although the poor recordings sucked, they sucked less, as the M700s were able to unravel more; or was it the dac in the Stellar GC... or was it that the amps took better control of my speakers..., or the large space, or some combination? Hard to tell 

Last night and this morning the XLO break in disc has been on repeat to expedite that final bit of break in. Probably should have done that from day one.

tweak1:
"I hear zero nasties unless recorded on the cd, and boy I can really hear how poorly mastered some cds are."

Hello tweak1,

    I'm glad you like the initial sound of your new PSA 700M amps. My class D amps have only improved in sq over time.
     Some of the main and most obvious characteristics of good class D amps are their neutrality, low distortion and low background noise level. These qualities combined together results in a highly transparent and detailed presentation that is very revealing. As you're aware, good recordings sound amazingly good but bad recordings sound obviously bad, too. 
     However, I don't think anyone would describe the accuracy of good class D amps as a downside. I believe a person can be guilty of being too truthful and honest but not an audio amp.
     Some may prefer a less revealing amp that doesn't so clearly demonstrate the poor recording quality of some of their musical content. It is frustrating to discover some of your music was not well mastered and recorded.  But I still prefer the accurate and honest attributes because the good recordings sound so incredibly good.
     Unfortunately, good recordings of good music are not as abundant as I'd like but that's a whole related subject that's justifiably been the topic of  other separate threads in the past.  

Tim

Report:

First I hooked up the PSA M700s with my AA DDP-1 and finally a PS 5 power supply. Why these were ever sold separately is a mystery as the PS 5 unleashes the DDP-1s true potential

My big issue in getting the M700s was the small but mighty AA DPA-1 just wasn’t driving my big ass room, so... enter the M700s. I was told by the seller they had maybe 200 hours, and I’ve read that 300 begins to reveal their wonderfulness. They’ve been powering the EP KCIIs since Saturday evening. And yes, my room needed that double the power, but possibly Edge 1200s will be in my future, but as of last night when I spun Diana Krall Impulse: WOW

Texture in spades, expansive and sweet sound reminiscent of Rogue M 150s with cryoed tubes; along wth ample power. I hear zero nasties unless recorded on the cd, and boy I can really hear how poorly mastered some cds are

At 4k the pair, GaN can wait

So AA is for sale, but not because the PSA blows it away, although it does in this room

yes there are uber expensive class D amps that may or may not be any better than Nord, but here in the USA, PS Audio is leading the way with their Ice Power M700s ($2998 @ 350/700w the pair!) and matching Stellar Gain Cell Dac/Pre $1699, plus 2 trusted names,  EVS and Atmosphere will soon debut their offerings

I just hooked up the PSA GC dac/pre to compare to my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 power supply ($1995 + $650)

next week I will hook up the M700s to compare to my AA DPA -1 stereo amp

Nord Acoustics maybe available in the US via a very interested US Dealer in the near future. You can then all enjoy the sound quality of state of the art class D amplifiers with low running costs and requiring minimal rack space, better still the prices are not over the top like other companies asking 10k plus.

Hello Class D Lovers and Haters
I am following class D discussion maybe in last 5 years and though can’t say anything refer to thecnical barriers for achieving like in heaven sound quality but I’ll choose a good class D over any class A/B or A anytime!
Main reason is cost and physical design plus sound quality of class D amps! I think other average users have the same idea and the reason market is leaning to develop more advance amps by this technology , is ppl buy it and love it ( except few picky nerds that try by numbers warn us about this fraud )
Best advice for ppl is to test them by themselves , buy a second hand with good reviews ( not those mainly advertised by media but by ppl that have used them) 
just add a good tube pre amp and you won’t regret it unless you enjoying be the one who always like the old ones ;)
p.s) I am not working in audio business so that is my honest opinion !
Cheers
/Kevin

I owned a PS Audio Stellar 300 amplifier. Expansive soundstage and very high resolution. Dead quiet and ran cool. I left it on all the time because of a low current draw. If you are fixated on a Class D amp, this one is quality and won't break the bank.