The development of technology is not dependent on the evolution of music(or is it?). What are you worried about?
Why does most new music suck?
Ok I will have some exclusions to my statement. I'm not talking about classical or jazz. My comment is mostly pointed to rock and pop releases. Don't even get me started on rap.... I don't consider it music. I will admit that I'm an old foggy but come on, where are some talented new groups? I grew up with the Beatles, Who, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix etc. I sample a lot of new music and the recordings are terrible. The engineers should be fired for producing over compressed shrill garbage. The talent seems to be lost or doesn't exist. I have turned to some folk/country or blues music. It really is a sad state of affairs....Oh my god, I'm turning into my parents.
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This has been an interesting thread, though IMO some of the responses have been a bit unkind. As I mentioned in my post on 5/28, IÂ’m one of the folks who believe that popular music is getting worse. I think thereÂ’s been a bit of confusion on the thread about whether people are sayingÂ… (1) POPULAR music is getting worse. (2) ALL music is getting worse. My impression is that most of the people who agree with the OP, myself included, are saying (1) but not (2). And so the assumption that we who believe that popular music is getting worse are (a) old, and (b) unwilling to explore new music is, IMO, false. FWIW, I am 40 and I explore new music regularly, including some of the artists that have been mentioned on this thread as examples of good contemporary music. In my view, the observation that, as people age, they relate less to contemporary popular culture is an accurate generalization. But, IMO, that fact alone does not invalidate their opinions about popular culture, including popular music. In fact, there is some reason to believe that older people are in a BETTER position to judge the relative merits of eras of popular culture, for the simple reason that they have far more experience with multiple eras than younger people do. And finally, the view that those who believe that popular music is getting worse are simply out of touch seems to be based on the assumption that cultural and artistic regression isnÂ’t possible. But even a casual look at the history of art, science, and politics will reveal that cultural regression in all three is not only possible, but a common historical reality. If you need an example of that, look no further than the middle ages, when many of the artistic, scientific, and political achievements of the ancient world were lost, hidden, or destroyed. That is cultural regression. And if youÂ’d like more recent examples, look at the artistic, scientific, and political regression in virtually every totalitarian state in the 20th century, and there were plenty of those. Yes, I know, IÂ’m being dramatic. We donÂ’t live in the middle ages, or in North Korea. But the point IÂ’m making is that there is absolutely no guarantee that music, or art more generally, or science, or governance, will progress over time, or even stay constant over time. On the contrary, all of those domains of human affairs are vulnerable to regression, and when they regress far enough, they collapse. But now IÂ’m being dramatic again. Happy listening. Bryon |
I have had an interesting and eye-opening experience concerning "pop" music over the last several months; "pop", as defined by what gets a lot of radio play. The only radio that I listen to are the jazz and classical stations in the NYC area. I have been spending a fair amount of time doing landscaping and other outdoors work at a weekend property in upstate NY far from any major towns and I listen to local stations while I work. The choice of radio stations is very limited and my choices are either current pop or country/western; there is classic-rock station that is difficult to pull in most days. I have never liked country music (to put it mildly), but the surprise for me has been how much better contemporary country music is than the vast majority of current "pop" music. There is no comparison when it comes to how well songs are crafted or the level of musicianship and singing. Most of the pop that gets air play is pretty dreadful IMO, while I find myself actually enjoying much of what I hear from the country music stations. I almost can't believe I am saying that, but it's true. |
Frogman, you're statement about modern "country" music is not surprising. The majority of today's country music sounds like soft rock from the 1980-90s. It's a long way from Hank Williams. Byroncunningham, thanks for alerting us to the threat to our civilization, although you're not the first with that observation. Let's face it, music designed to appeal to young people probably won't make much sense to adults. |
Gustav Mahler, at a concert which featured new music of Arnold Schoenberg, was asked his opinion of the piece. "The younger generation," he declared, "is always right." He went on to say he in fact did not like the piece himself, but that was not the point. I'm not sure what the particular piece was but I'm probably on Mahler's side on both counts. Nevertheless, each of us is free to choose what we want to listen to. If we say other music sucks we'd better be prepared for a challenge to that statement. Again, there's a lot of good and even more bad music produced at any moment in time. So listen to the good and try to avoid the bad. It probably means that if you listen to the radio at all you need to be prepared to spend a lot of time changing stations. I know I do. |
Bryon, et al, I agree with your statement that more production equals more dilution of talent. And I was impressed by your careful and methodical articulation of your point. I guess what got me, though, on the original post was the implication that compared to the giants of yore, the modern day artists are superficial, etc. Yes, many modern day musicians struggle (or not) to surpass bubble-gum cheese pop status. But the same can be said for just about any decade of music. Idk; I think when we start denying the modern for a celebration of the past - the whole "ubi sunt" (oh, where have they gone?" motif) is when we delude ourselves to how relevant our perspective really is. |
There's a lot of good new music out there. The way you listen has much to do with whether or not you will find it worthwhile. If you simply listen once, maybe not even all the way through and declare it bad, well. I'm sure we can all recall a few albums that took some work to find out how good they were. That hasn't changed. Sometimes it takes work but it's worth it in the long run. |
You are sucking lemons. I see and hear dozens of bands everyday that are the equal of the bands you mention. The difference is that the labels have gone away, and with that, recording studios have gone away as well. Bands do not have access to six figure recording budgets any more, and if they do record, usually self-finance it. In fact, the only real money they make is through live touring. So get out of your #$%@^& rig cave and go to a show. I went and saw three this week: Mumford and Sons, the XX and Watsky. All brilliant. Sorry you are missing out. Oh wait, I am not sorry. Just tired of my generation taking this position, over and over. |
Dare I say , that there is more great Pop Rock bands now than in any era ? I guess I said it. My tastes haved moved from straight ahead Rock n Roll back in highschool to Pop Rock, Folk, Alt. County, Blue Grass, Americana By Pop Rock, I don't mean Adam Lambert , I listen to progressive , innovative (even if reinterpreting styles/genres) intelligent Pop Rock. The Shins, Vampire Weekend, Broken Bells, The XX, Ben Howard, Wilco, The Wood Brothers, The National, My Morning Jacket, Gomez, Grizzly Bear,Spiritualized, newly discovered bands such as Alt J, Jim James, Here We Go Magic and more! What a dynamic and exciting time to be a music lover!!!! I grew up listening to one of three stations playing Rock music in Philadelphia. I listened to what they played . Now the world of music us at our finger tips!! The Internet , social networking, Spotify , MOG , YouTube , Rapsody, Sirrus , Cable music , etc... It's easy in this day and age to discover new music. All you need is time and an open mind. I get disheartened to hear audiophiles say that music is shit, dead , over. My initial reaction is , I pity these close minded foolish people who do not embrace all the wonderful music released in the past 30 years and today. You invested thousands of dollars in amazing systems to listen to Bowie and the Beatles and Queen and Rush over and over again ? Really ? I say ,"Open Your Minds" Discover great new music, it's out there. |
The problem with your request for albums that are well recorded, well written and performed, is that music is subjective. There are people out there who don't like the bands you listed. I could list MY favorite albums that *I* consider solid, however you may not like them at all. Music is always evolving and much of it will reflect current tastes and trends. If you like it, great; if not that's okay- but that doesn't make it "bad" just not your style. As other's have said, the industry has changed- the way music is produced, promoted, purchased, discovered has changed drastically. Sometimes in order to listen to talented artists without resources, you have to suffer through poorer quality recordings. Just as going to live performances isn't all about sound quality, it is an experience. Some of us are able to go to a show or buy an imperfect recording and enjoy it for what it is. If you aren't willing to do that and don't like what is out there today, then stay at home, listen to your superbly recorded albums from yesteryears and enjoy. I agree with Toddnkaya- this may be the best time for music. I am always amazed at the never ending talent in the world. Do I like all of it? No way. Is there a lot of crap (IMO;)) recorded today? Yep. But there is certainly not a dearth of great music. |
"I get disheartened to hear audiophiles say that music is shit, dead , over." I think that in many cases like this, with "audiophiles", the user has high or particular performance/sound quality expectations that are not being met for whatever reason that creates a barrier to discovering and enjoying new music. I have suffered this curse myself over the years from time to time. You tend to listen to the same old stuff because you get pleasure from the familiarity that compensates from just not enjoying what you are listening to. OR in some cases, people really only like certain music or songs and that is it. Whatever floats your boat. ITs all OK. Its only usually a problem when one gets stuck in a pattern of blaming others for not fulfilling their own personal needs. |
The major reason's for the decline of music quality is poor education in the school systems. Back in the 60's and early 70's High School Students were required to take Music education classes which taught music theory and the history of music such as jazz and classical. When the AFL-CIO unionized the school teachers in the late 70's they lowered the standard's making it easier for low quailty teacher's to obtain their teacher's certificates. Art and music classes are just about non existent nowadays in the school's resulting in lack of knowledge and the importance of music to the current generation of students. Asia, Europe and Canada still maintain their high education standards which is why high end audio and music awareness is stronger in those countrie's than in the states. The result is mediocre talent shows on TV as well as poor recording artists with major labels. Justin Bieber is a prime example of the garbage coming out of the current music industry. Their is still some damn good rock band's around today but not on the same scale as thirty or more years ago. |
What? No coffee drinkers out there? Pity. Hopefully you'll see the light before you die for the open minded, or on the other hand, hopefully not for the closed. I recently watched a reality flick about a guy who had a half million vinyl record collection. No new music. Good luck hearing each one just one time in your life. |
I think the loss of civility is the canary in the coal mine in that it is one of the symptoms of a declining civilization. History is full of the declines of empires from Easter Island to the Roman Empire to the recurring 52 year cyclic reinvention of the Mayans and their eventual unraveling. Standards of living have been so improved that, short of nuclear annihilation, we won't see our own decline or that of others but rather a gradual realization that we have simply, and irrevocably, taken a turn for the worse. The music that results from that is a reflection of that trend which seems to annoy us to no end. Because of this slow and bastard form of decline we will always have that tether to the past that allows us look both forward and backward. Lest the youth aren't made aware of this tether they will continue onward into god knows what, but it won't be for the better. The loss always manifests itself culturally. Better teachers are needed but to blame poor schooling on unions is a bit of a stretch. Unionized teachers of Europe are the contributing factor to their higher achievement levels they hold over us. All the best, Nonoise |
The canary's in the coal mine alright, but I'm not sure it's civility. Youth have always been aware of the bullshit they're being put through. They don't waste any time pointing it out. Up here, Canada is still struggling to identify it's culture while the teacher's union is one of the richest. Since when has music not been a reflection of current events? Music soothes the savage breast so subject matter is not the issue. How it's put together is. Problem is, there's nothing left to put together. |
I like Bongo's advice. No one will ever get the satisfaction of saying "I told you so!" when the world comes to an end. (Okay, maybe in their next life.) As to civility, the good news is that people here are passionate about music (among other things). When passion runs high, manners are sometimes forgotten. I'm in the camp that generally prefers to read the optimistic responses so my kudos go to Todd and Mapman for seeing the half full glass. |
Okay, I'll admit that what I said was a bit of a downer, and optimism is always better than pessimism, but people shouldn't follow their cult leaders rants, blaming a group of people for the ails of society. That's where is all starts. History is full of the results. Use that tether. All the best, Nonoise |
Without civility, any hobby like high end audio best characterized as a form of OCD would self destruct in no time. Can high end audio continue to survive? We'll see. If it doesn't, I'm probably still not quite ready to predict the end of civilization as we know it. Unless lead there similarly by other OCD types, you know the ones.... |
06-05-13: CsontosThen you missed it. Here's a sample, each from a different contributor... You must be old.Sounds like lack of civility to me. 06-05-13: CsontosAnyone who has read my posts will recognize the absurdity of these remarks. Bryon |
06-05-13: CsontosSmall correction... There is no evidence that this quote is from Nietzsche, in spite of its popular attribution. It is, however, a tattoo on Megan Fox. Perhaps it is an act of snobbery, but I will look elsewhere for words of wisdom. Bryon |
06-05-13: Onhwy61I have read a great number of your posts, Onhwy61, and found them generally entertaining, intelligent, and friendly. This one seems out of place, to put it politely. You can't really be calling me "degenerate" for commenting on the tenor of this thread. Bryon |
I'm not sure what the deal with "civility" is. I mean, are we to handle every utterance and statement with kid gloves? Look, you can't throw out a sweeping and myopic generalization like "new music sucks" (which itself is an "uncivil" observation) and then expect a gentrified, socratic discussion among strangers. I don't think audiogon is the domain of sycophants. However strong a statement you start with is going to generate as equal or stronger statements in return. With all due respect to Goose, Bryon, et al., and with the exception of a few responses involving mentions of death, etc., most of the responses have actually been pretty restrained. And my own comment that Goose's stone is gathering moss seems born out by his comment about his own musical frames of reference; e.g., the Stones, the Who, and the rest. Seriously - the Stones, Beatles, Who, etc., started FIFTY FRICKIN' YEARS AGO. That doesn't diminish the power of their artistry or legacy in the least, but if one is pining away for the expressions of half a century ago, then one really seems to refuse to accept the inevitable change in musical paradigms and directions. Yes, I say "accept". You don't have to like it, but you can't simply out-of-hand reject it as substandard. That shows true superficiality. It's like saying "All rap sucks" or "All country sucks". Completely untrue. Yes, there's a lot of rap and country (and classical and jazz - I mean, how many decades back has jazz been set by smooth jazz and Kenny G?) that's pure marketing and image and stereotype and geared towards the here and now, not the far and yet unknown. But there're also a few rap and country artists who are every bit as important as Daltrey and Hendrix and Richards. |
No I am not calling you degenerate. That would be completely uncalled for based upon anything I've read from you. It would also be rude. What I've done is quote someone who has pointed out that good manners and civility are a method used by one class of society to oppress another sector of that society. The implication is that you are trying to impose civility upon this thread as an attempt to silence opinions that disagree with yours. I doubt that was your intention, but that may well be the effect. The OP offered an opinion, somewhat rudely stated, about today's music. At some point the thread veered towards talk of the end of civilization with teacher's union as a main culprit. I guess Albert Shanker really does get hold of nukes. I don't think the OP was taking himself as seriously as others are taking this topic. This thread could have been titled "What's Wrong With Me That I Can't Relate to Today's Popular Music?" |
Thank you, Onhwy61, for your thoughtful response. It is not easy to be thoughtful during a disagreement, and I genuinely appreciate it. I have a reaction to your post, and I hope you will find it similarly reasonable... What I've done is quote someone who has pointed out that good manners and civility are a method used by one class of society to oppress another sector of that society. The implication is that you are trying to impose civility upon this thread as an attempt to silence opinions that disagree with yours. I doubt that was your intention, but that may well be the effect.Though I understood the meaning of the quote, I failed to appreciate your interpretation that my comments might, intentionally or not, silence opinions that disagree with mine. It certainly was not my intention to silence anyone, as you mentioned. In fact, my intention was exactly the opposite. It was to point out some comments that I felt might be intended to silence opposition. It is ironic and unfortunate that, in my attempt to challenge what I perceived to be peremptory comments, I made what you perceived to be peremptory comments. You have my apology for that. Those who are familiar with my posting history will know that I have no problem with differences of opinion. My first comment on this thread reflects that. If it weren't for differences of opinion, this site and those like it would be very boring. I made the comments I did because I felt that the thread was veering into territory where nothing constructive gets said, because people have dug their heels in too deep. You have resisted the temptation to do that, and I thank you for it. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming... Bryon |
Orpheus , maybe you should look at your own reflection. Life doesn't suck. Your attitude does. Sure there pain, war, disease , evil. (things that suck) But so too is there beauty and love everywhere if you are open to experiencing it. I love life!!, because I choose to. I discover fantastic new music because I take the time to explore it. I look forward to the future and embrace life everyday. Todd |
