Jimmy3993, I can only guess that mechanical vibrations, temperature excursions, and who knows what else may have a detrimental effect. . . besides you have no idea about their past history. . . so, assume the devices are almost new and start break in from the ground up. |
guidocorona -
sounds more reasonable than anything i can come up with.
another question for you - I am using the p9 pre from nuforce with the amps right now and the usable volume range seems to be from "0" to "4" out of 70 or so steps. So there is very little usable volume control for me. Have I done something wrong? Is it a pre amp issue? My "reference" is a mac integrated and while I never get past 40% of the volume wheel, there is much more usable room to fine tune volume.
Thanks for all the help! |
Hi Jimmy3993, I can only think that someone tweaked gain on either pre or amps. . . this needs a call to Nuforce tech support. Guido |
Hello Outlier,
Standard Musician III is not as refined as SE Mk2 (and by FAR!!!!) and you will be much better off if you will call Simon at Spectron and ask how to optimize your amplifier - he will give you a few advises for very inexpensive tweaks - which will work!
All The Best
Rafael |
While I agree that the SE MKII is superior the standard Musician III is still a very fine amplifier, I have had both, and in most cases it is all that one needs for listening to exceptional audio. The MKII is also more expensive (and by FAR!!!). |
I own PSAudio GCC250 and Maggies. Very good match.
I work for a company (to remain nameless) which is just entering the Class 'd' market and am trying to pry one of the demo units out of the engineers hands. I'm not TOO optimistic, however, since I saw the list of equipment used to 'voice' the amp and how certain component choices were made.
If I EVER get my hands on it, I'll publish here first: |
Guidocorona -
I let everything settle for a few days and the nuforce set up sounds much better. Is it possible for an amplifier to contribute to imaging? Becase that is the change that is most obvious as I moved over to the p9/SE combo away from my mcintosh. The image is so much more sharply defined.
I will be selling my integrated and picking up 2 (ideally 3)of the amps. Not sure about the pre though. Dont like all the popping and the volume control gets way too loud way too fast.
I think that you had writtne something somewhere about matching the impedance of the pre to the power amp. Can you explain that again so that I know what to look for in a pre to go with the nuforce's?
thx! |
IMO, there should be no issues with matching a preamplifier and amplifier from the same manufacturer. If there are issues, then something's wrong.
Jimmy3993, the small usable range of volume control on your preamp is a function of gain matching rather than impedance matching, IMO. Your preamp appears to have too much gain for your amps. |
Tvad -
Thanks! New to all of this...
Is there somewhere I can go to reaserch the gain of different pre amps? |
Is there somewhere I can go to reaserch the gain of different pre amps?
Jimmy3993 (System | Threads | Answers) Output gain on preamp (as well as input gain on an amp) is a specification that's stated by manufacturers 99% of the time in the product literature or on the manufacturer's website. FWIW, IMO most preamps have way more gain than necessary. 10-12dB is usually sufficient with the majority of amps. |
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Jimmy3993, yes the amp will contribute to staging, like every other component. . . you'll see in a couple of weeks. I suggest you call Nuforce about the problem you are experiencing with the P9. I have tried 2 different pres with the NuForce Ref 9 SE: ARC Ref 3 and JRDG Capri. They both have no impedance nor gain matching problems with the NuForce. I personally prefer the Capri because of its frequency extension and linearity, but many will prefer the Ref 3 for its slightly greater warmth.
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Thanks again. I talked to nuforce. Part of the issue is fixable, part is intentional. There is a jumper that I can close to cut the gain in half. But in their literature they talk about the gain being linear as opposed to other pre designs where the volume is more gradual. For me it comes down to a question of usability. I really like the ht pass, the extra pre out for my sub and the "cleanness" of the sound but I need more volume flexibility. |
More conversation with nuforce. They gave me directions to open the pre and move a jumper to cut the gain by 1/2. So I gave it a shot but when I opened it up it didnt really look like he picture. Turns out that the demo version i was sent has an old board without the jumper. But they offered to switch it out and if thatw as not enough of a reduction, the offered to add resistance if I wanted. Not bad from a service standpoint. |
I actually had a different issue with the NuForce V2 SE and my Supratek Chenin tube preamp. The RF emitted by the Nuforce fed back through the tubes in my pre, producing a contant buzz/hum through the speakers, and a very glaring type of sound - rather unpleasant. Be careful matching the NuForce with tube preamps, especially Suprateks. The Supras are very sensitive to RF - I can't have a cell phone in the same room with them, or I hear every ping of the cell tower loud and clear. No such problem with the Gilmores, however. |
No guarantees, but the Rowland chassis is designed with containing RFI in mind. Some of the worst of Class D or ICEPower impressions comes from these kind of issues. It cannot be ignored. Besides interacting with pre-amps, setting your CDP and ICEPower amp side by side can be disappointing. With my Rowland Continuum 500 and Playback Designs MPS-5 it's not an issue at all, either in unbalanced or balanced mode.
Dave |
08-21-08: Jimmy3993
More conversation with nuforce. They gave me directions to open the pre and
move a jumper to cut the gain by 1/2. So I gave it a shot but when I opened it
up it didnt really look like he picture. Turns out that the demo version i was
sent has an old board without the jumper. I was going stay quiet on this, but your news above changed my mind. How can a company send out a demo unit that is not current with the latest production version? What if you had decided you really liked the preamp, and you wanted to purchase it? Would NuForce have notified you that the demo unit wasn't up to current spec and sent you a new one? I doubt it. Sounds like they weren't aware that the unit you had wasn't a model with the most recent board. From the outset, NuForce seems to have been a company that uses their customers as paying beta testers. During the course of two or three years, they would release new version after new version of their amps within months of the previous models, which were touted as the greatest thing in hifi. One would buy their product, and then two months later the amp would have to be shipped back to NuForce for the latest upgrades. A few months after that, the process would repeat. This only stopped with the release of their Ref 9 V2SE, which I demoed and thought was an excellent amplifier if paired with appropriate speakers. However, based on your preamp experience it sounds to me like NuForce still doesn't quite have its act together with the preamp. I think if you want a product for the long term, that has been tested and refined BEFORE it was brought to market, and if you want to avoid being a beta tester for a product for which you have paid a good sum of money, then you would be well advised to look at a different brand. |
I had not looked at it from that angle, but can't really argue with you either. The p9 demo was not part of their usuall demo process though.
On their web site, they offer auditions for the monos. So I called the to arrange a demo. While on the phone, I asked about the p9. The guy said that they didn't have a demo program for it, but that he had one handy and wouldn't mind sending it along.
So I can give them a "pass" on not knowing that the pre wasn't current because they weren't planning on sending it out.
That says nothing about the rapid rate that they upgrade the amps.
I am really fond of the solidity of the imaging that I get from the pre/mono combo. Plus the pre suits my quirky functionality needs (ht bypass, balanced input and output) and they are cheap.
If anyone has an alternate to consider, let me know! |
08-21-08: Jimmy3993
I can give them a "pass" on not knowing that the pre wasn't
current because they weren't planning on sending it
out. A company should know exactly what they're sending out for customer evaluation. Otherwise, how can a proper evaluation be performed (as you discovered)? You cannot know if the unit you have will sound the same or different from a unit with the correct board installed. This service from NuForce is slipshod, IMO. |
T
Sounds like this isn't the first problem you have heard about. Have there been others? |
Yours is the first.
My opinion is unchanged, though.
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Hi Jimmy3993, here is a slightly different path. . . I have just spotted an Agon ad for a brand new JRDG Continuum 500 for under $7K. This is an integrated roughly equivalent to a pair of 501 monos + 1500W PFC circuit (twice the capacity of the PC1 + a Capri pre board + a block of additional bulk output capacitors not available on the individual components. This is the same model of Continuum that DCSTEP has been raving about for the last several months. This is the first time I spot a Continuum 500 on Agon for sale. Some specs at:
http://jeffrowland.com/Continuum.htm |
G -
That looks really nice.
Can I have $2000?
A little out of my range for now. I sold by integrated for 3300 and planned on spending 4500 on a pre/power for now. I found a pair of V2se's for 2600 so I have 2kish for a pre.
So there is the nuforce below that price and older conrad johnson and pass labs at that price and a calypso $1k over budget.
I want an ht pass and would prefer balanced. Thanks for your help. I know that I have gotten away from the original post. |
Jimmy, look at the current ad for a JRDG Capri for approx 2.2K. Capri is balanced, has remote, HT bypass, has 0.5dB volume increments. G.
See:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1223931452 |
There have been two upgrades to Nuforce Ref series amps. The first was from Ref 9 to SE that was a little more than one year after the original came out to unrepresented praise. A little more than a year later V2 technology which has a US patent was introduced. The SE upgrade was more expensive than V2. But for much less than half of the cost you have a amp thats up to date with current offerings. I know because i did the upgrade thing and glad it did.
I cant see how you can have a problem with that kind of customer support.
As far as P-9 goes i had one and it did not produce the sound i was looking for. I went the tubed route with absolutely no problems with any issues mentioned in this thread.
I am one of many who really appreciate a company that keeps there customers in mind with upgrades instead of just leaving those customers high and dry with out dated gear that goes for way less than what it cost new on the resale market.
Another thing you can count on with Nuforce is there first class and speedy way of dealing with any problems you may have with there gear.
I say many thanks Nuforce for your super equipment and service.
I dont have any money interest or friends that are connected with Nuforce in any way. I'm just one very happy user of one of the finest amps available.
If any of you out there are ever in New Orleans get in touch and you can hear the superior sound that Nuforce amps give my system. |
G -
Yea - that might be it. Do you have any personal experience with jrdg pre's? |
Going back to the Reference 8, there have been more than two upgrades to NuForce amps. Perhaps two upgrades is true for the Reference 9 series.
In any case, it's water under the bridge.
I demoed the Ref 9V2 SE. Thought they were good, but not the best match for my speakers, and I moved on. I wish the amps doubled output as impedance is halved, but they don't. NuForce seems to have gotten the amplifiers dialed in pretty well, and they certainly slowed down the upgrades which is a plus.
I'm still of the opinion that sending out a preamp with an outdated board for a customer demo is pretty boneheaded.
I've been trying to think of preamp options that have HT bypass and balanced operation for under $2k, and the choices seem slim.
Audio Horizons might be willing to build one of their TP2.1 preamps with a HT Bypass if you asked them. I once demoed a TP2.1 with a tape loop that Joseph installed at my request (although I had to sacrifice an output). |
You are so right the Ref 8 series slipped my mind. I got my first hole in one today after 28 years of playing golf. I had a few of my favorite beverage.
For me Nuforce and AH are one very good match. And Joseph has superior customer service as well. Should not be a problem getting your request built. |
08-21-08: Stltrains
I got my first hole in one today after 28 years of playing golf. Heartfelt congratulations to you! Ironically, had no idea you used an AH preamp. Perhaps this is a sign for the OP. |
08-21-08: Stltrains
I got my first hole in one today after 28 years of playing golf. Heartfelt congratulations to you! Ironically, had no idea you used an AH preamp. Perhaps this is a sign for the OP. (BTW, be sure to read the steaming thread. Turns out the Perfection steamer's power cord contains lead...a chemical known to cause cancer. A warning label is on the BOTTOM of the Perfection box. No wonder Walgreens is blowing them out.) |
Hi Jimmy3993, yes I am running a Capri in my system consisting of TEAC X-01 Limited, JRDG 312, Vienna Mahler speakers. I prefer it over my ARC Ref 3. I have also run the Capri with NuForce Ref 9 SE and it worked perfectly. I could wax poetic about Capri, which is currently my preferred pre of record. . . but there are some threads where I have already commented abundantly on it. Just search for Capri in the discussion threads. . . here are some of the threads in questions:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1169433708&openfrom&19&4#19
and:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1200110667&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
If you buy a Capri, let it play music for 1000 hours or so, then decide if you like it. G. |
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Thanks g. I looked at the threads.seems like there are some real fans out there. Also looks like the capri new is only priced a bit above the used ones on this site. Might just try and find a dealer to demo and buy new.
Thanks again for your input! |
