My system has had the most three dimensional image in two configurations. The first was with a VAC Phi 110/110 amp and a Lamm LL2 Deluxe preamp. The second was with a Supratek Cortese preamp and Belles 150A Reference monoblocks.
In both cases, the image was spookily three dimensional, and I have yet to replicate this effect with any other combination of tubes or solid state.
However, I have had system configurations which were (are) more neutral and with less coloration, and that still have a very transparent image. The difference is the image does not have the forward/backward imaging that was so interesting in the two combinations mentioned above.
So, IMO, tubes have everything to do with a three dimensional (holographic) image, but the image may not be accurate. |
Sonic holography is significantly increased upon the use of two glasses of wine, three beers, or a bong load... |
It seems to me, audiophiles naturally fall into two camps. The first camp is comprised of those who endeavor to accurately recreate the live experience. The second camp is comprised of those who wish to create an entertaining listening experience that does not have to be accurate. Perhaps the second camp members are not true audiophiles in the strictest sense.
I have to admit to being one more inclined to join the second camp than the first. If I'm having fun listening, I don't care if the reproduction of the recording is accurate.
If I want to hear accurate music, I have the option of attending live musical events. |
09-18-08: Rebbi
... to me, soundstage and imaging are what happen between and sometimes to the right and left of right and left speakers...whereas "holographic" refers to the sense that sounds and instruments are "out in the room" closer to you than the plane of the speakers. This is how I view the concept of audio holography as well. It's the projection of the image into the room that creates the 3D effect. I've heard this only with tube amps and cone speakers in my system. |
...and room treatments in an already good sounding room...
Tbg (System | Threads | Answers) What room treatments? The rug? |
Wanted to know what treatments are now being utilized...in conjunction with the H-Cat electronics. |
An amplifier should please the listener, whether flat sounding or holographic.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. |
09-25-08: Roger_paul
Musicnoise,
In other words when you walked toward the stage the pitch of all the instruments was increased. If you were to walk toward the back of the hall to sit in row 20 you would experience the lowering of the total pitch of the music. Interesting concept. How far back would one need to sit to hear the same performance in a different key than someone sitting in the front row? |
You would agree that the act of moving away from a sound source makes the frequency/pitch appear lower?
Roger
Roger_paul (Answers) I do agree yes, but in your concert hall illustration, I do not agree that it would be perceptible by any human. |
Roger, do you have a patent on this Doppler correcting technology in electrical circuits?
A Google search did not return any articles pertaining to Doppler in electrical circuits, so you must be onto something unique. If so, it'd seem prudent to obtain a patent, yes? |
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Thanks for the explanation, Tom.
Are you speaking for Roger? |
... there must be some motivation.
Musicnoise (Threads | Answers) There's no hidden agenda here that I can see. It's obvious. The man wants to sell his wares, and overcoming buyers' objections is part of the process. As is raising them. |
The realm of that which cannot be measured.
Faith...The Quagmire of audio mysticism. |
Yes - but it can be heard.
Roger
Roger_paul (Answers) Terrific. The explanation as to why is the issue at hand. Personally, because you admit you are working at theoretical levels and with processes that cannot be measured, I see no difference in your explanation for the H-Cat and those offered by purveyors of squiggly wooden sticks, crystal orbs, metallic offering bowls and jars of rocks. The cause of the perceived effectiveness of these devices cannot be measured, and therefore it's left to Faith to explain why some users hear benefits. |
09-26-08: Roger_paul
Tvad,
How can you criticize someone for taking the fight against distortion to the next level? I am not doing so. I am questioning the explanation, since it cannot be verified. To do so seems reasonable. But, as I've stated before in this thread, the only thing that matters is how a component sounds to the user. Perhaps it'd be best to just sell the H-Cat without trying to attribute it's effectiveness to an unverifiable theory... |
What surprises me though - is how highly selective we are being - why are we attacking Roger Paul's gear in particular?
Shadorne (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) I disagree that he's being attacked. He's being asked to explain the theory, and application of the theory that he advertises on his website in regards to his products. That's not an attack. That's due diligence. |
Good point but why are some things allowed to go without any demand for due diligence - most cables "technology" for that matter -
Shadorne (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) I've read many posts where requests have been made to explain cable "technology", so I don't agree that it's been given a pass. As in the case of the H-Cat's "Doppler Correcting" circuitry, the lack of measurements has always been a sticking point. |
09-28-08: Roger_paul
09-28-08: Tvad -
Can you tell me the difference between a standard fuse and an Isoclean fuse? (besides more than $30).
The answer is one sounds good the other sounds fantastic. It is a sonic or acoustic recognition of superior performance. But how can this be? You surely cannot measure any difference electrically. Well, I'll give it a shot. First, I have tried Isoclean fuses and heard a subtle improvement, so I'm not among those who will agree with the opinion that they sound fantastic. Frankly, I wonder if I could identify a component in my system that had one installed if a friend installed it (or didn't) while I was out of the room). I suspect their electrical properties can be measured by the appropriate equipment, but I have no idea what it would be, nor am I particularly interested in finding out. How about AVM (Anti Vibration Magic) paint? Simply applying it to transformers and wires and other components makes a HUGE difference sonically. I'll have to take your word for it since I've never heard the sonic effects of magic paint in my system. My point in the post you quoted wasn't one of arguing the merits of testing. Rather, it was highlighting that the issue has been contentious in many threads regarding numerous products. Yours has become one of them. I agree with you that one should buy a product if they like the sound it produces. It's my opinion that you do yourself a disservice by marketing a product with a claim that cannot be verified, because it draws so much negative energy to your cause. |
The merry-go-round continues, never ceasing to stop, as it always does in this type of discussion.
Nothing will come of this recent discourse besides animosity and contentiousness.
Shall we move on? |
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10-01-08: Tbg
... this makes my point that it is the sound that attracts people, not the explanation of why it does what it does. Perhaps you could emphasize this point with Roger, as his explanation of why the H-Cat does what it does is at the core of this thread's hullaballoo. |
10-01-08: Tbg
I am not in the science of amplifier circuits and know none posting here are either. Atma-Sphere is. I'm certain you knew that. |
It's not a tube vs. SS thing. Put ARC and Rowland side by side and you may notice some very small imaging differences, but one won't be "holographic" and the other not.
Dave
Dcstep (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) My experience with VAC, Atma-Sphere and Lamm tube gear as compared to McCormack, Bryston, Belles, Pass Labs, Channel Islands, NuForce and Bel Canto solid state (or digital gear) leads me to believe otherwise. I have to go with what I've heard. Now, having just owned an ARC Reference 3 preamp, I agree it does not create a holographic image. Nothing as compared to the Atma-Sphere MP-1 or Lamm LL2 Deuxe preamps I owned. |
Since editing of posts is not allowed in this thread, I want to make an addendum to my prior post.
It's my belief based on reviews, and on comments made by Vladimir Lamm and Ralph Karsten, that Lamm and Atma-Sphere strive for accuracy and neutrality. It's difficult to believe the holographic sound I heard when using their preamps was due to an intentionally designed trick to cause this effect.
I believe VAC has a similar goal, but I'm not certain.
Now, I have also owned a Belles preamp that created a very large image...high and wide. However, the image was not holographic. Rather, it was large but two dimensional, IMO. |
So you're saying that you prefer the Atma-Sphere and Lamm to the ARC?
Dave
Dcstep (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) Yes. I also preferred the Lamm L2 Reference to the ARC Reference 3 in my system. In my system. I cannot speak for what others might prefer. |
Question: is referring to 3D quality in fact a marketing trick?
Chris
Dazzdax (Threads | Answers) Not in my experience with (most) tube gear in my system. |
If depth (and width) of sound stage is not at the very heart of the topic of holographic imaging, then I am at a complete loss regarding the question. |
