The nightmare of the cartridge buyer...
It does bother me, at the very least what I can do is not buy cartridges at those prices, especially without auditioning in my system, regardless of whether or not I can afford them, that's irrelevant. I can afford a $50 cup of coffee in New York from time to time, I never buy it and never will. Nor will I allow anyone to buy it for me, by the way. If someone got a problem with this thread and the OP one can easily take a hike and go buy one of those cartridges. While you do that try to think about the concept of intrinsic value, unless it would burden your intellect too much of course. What a bunch. |
@rauliruegasi have been in this hobby for decades, not that that makes me an expert...as so many on this thread consider themselves. Unfortunately, to my ears, the various cartridges out there have VERY distinct sounds...some of which I feel are more listenable than others, irrespective of price. Some of the models sound too warm, some are too bright, some are veiled and non resolving. Do they all sound good, as you say, not to my ears, to some of these other experts, I’m sure they do. Here’s my point, I fail to see why a cartridge consumer has to take a financial risk by buying one of these expensive cartridges when all the dealers have to do is stock them and display them....which IME almost none do, and secondly have a demo model available for home usage. Now, if we were discussing the old days when the best cartridge were $200 or thereabouts, that’s a different matter, today we are talking tens of thousands of $$’s,...which to some folks is peanuts, but I suspect like you stated to a whole bunch...it isn’t. (I think you actually included yourself in this category). Therefore, I am attempting to come up with solutions to the way these cartridges are sold and marketed....which may be a futile effort, based on several of the ‘no problem, I love the status quo’ responses that I am seeing. ( which, frankly, was exactly what I was expecting here). If the status quo doesn’t bother you, then it’s all good. |
Davey, What more do you hope to achieve by perpetuating this thread? Not only do at least 50% of the responders lack sympathy, but also none of us, including you, can do a darn thing about the current situation. I do also think you are being a bit childish if you haven't investigated the possible arrangements with a certain few dealers whereby you might actually secure a home trial. If that's what you really want, that's where you should place your effort. Some likely sources have already been named. Frankly, I don't care if you won't buy a vintage cartridge; that leaves one fewer buyer competing in that market for the very few worthwhile purchases I have not already made. Have a nice day. |
@chakster + 1 The OP seems convinced that 'vintage' cartridges will inevitably sound mediocre compared to new top price MC's and that they will damage his records. He is wrong on both counts. On the first count: I have two modern cartridges, VdHul XPW Blackwood and Transfiguration Proteus (both retail price,over 5k) as well as a whole parade of 'vintage' MC's from the '80s (all priced between $500 and $2000). Of course they're all different and I do have my favorites, but none of them sound mediocre compared to these two modern cartridges. Don't buy into this fairy tale that 'new and expensive' is better by default. It simply ain't true. On the second count: I've never damaged a single record with any of these vintage carts. All you need is a loupe and a little experience inspecting the stylus. And if you don't trust your own eyes, send it to one of the experts that offer a check up for a small fee, completely eliminating any 'risk' of damaging your records. And how about those vintage records from the 'golden age of vinyl' we cherish for their sound quality? What sort of record players and 'needles' do you think these LP's were played with in the '50s and '60s? Nobody heard of VTF, VTA, SRA or azimuth back then....... Apart from accidental damages or mishandling, most of those 50+ year old copies have survived crude playback conditions very well and still sound great on modern high resolution systems. Do you really think a vintage cartridge from the '80s in good condition will ruin these with one play? Get real. |
Dear @daveyf : It's absolutely clear and useless to follow with the same specific issue that almost no one of us can listen in our own home system the cartridge loaned/borrowed by a dealer. As @lewm said: that possibility just gone for ever. Now, in the last years i listened in my own system cartridges from 4k to over 10K. Some I own and some coming from my audio friends. In those last years no single of those high price LOMC cartridges performed bad or that definitively I did not like it. All sounds good but different and some of them sounds more alike than different. We can't make that new top LOMC cartridges can goes at lower prices but in reality over the next times prices will follows the trend: higher prices. So is useless try to fix this issue. Then what can we do about?, some premises to explain my way of think in the whole regards: - true music lovers/true music audiophiles are more alike than different: at the end what we want is to listen MUSIC at its best in each one home audio system. - true music lovers/true audiophiles are gentlemans that have as a reference: live MUSIC because attend to live music events. So all of them know for sure how MUSIC sounds, how instruments performs at near field seat positions. - if those two premises are true then our home audio system are builded according those premises and this means that we already took care to choose each single link in the home audio system chain very carefully, especially our analog rig: TT, TT plattform, Tonearm, PhonoLinePreamp, IC cables and deep knowledge level to cartridge/tonearm alignment set up. So, in some ways we are: " experts " about and we know what we want it and how achieve it. We know for sure all the " problems/degradations " of the recorded signal and playing signal proccess and can distinguish between sound and sound+added distortions. - we read cartridge reviews and knows the tonearms where were mounted and we already learned to read reviews " between lines " on each reviewer: we know what that reviewer wants to sale/sold us: we can detect the " hidden information " in those reviews. - the whealthy gentlemans normally have less knowledge overall music&audio levels that the ones that as me are not whealthy. So we are really carefully to tup everykind of mistakes at minimum. - we know perfectly the resolution of our home audio systems, its advantages and disadvantages. With all those know-how ( we are no rookies any more ) we can buy a high price LOMC cartridge with almost no risk that we make a mistake with. The risk is at minimum. @daveyf : are you a rookie or have doubts on your audio system? No?, then you have not to worry and pull the triger with any cartridge youwant it that your knowledge tell you will works wonderful in your room/system ! ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R |
Dave, the only way I discovered the cartridge I bought was lean and hyper resolving was to purchase it. Almost everybody recommended it. One man's lean, is another man's "fast" and resolving. Since it was obviously a good cartridge, it took a long time for me to come to the conclusion that it wasn't the cartridge for me. Long term critical listening to your favorite music is the only way to determine whether or not the cartridge is for you. This is such a difficult process when taken seriously, that it has to take more time than dealers would allow. While you can evaluate a pre-amp, or amp in short order, not so with a cartridge; that takes more time. |
Just to digress... An hour ago a Threshold FET10 preamp and phono (separates) was delivered. Bought here on Audiogon a few days ago.Plug i them in and start listening to the sound. Right off better than my Bryston BP1.5, (which has seemed to become dry and thin over the years.) I thought the problem was the Benz Glider.. Nope. With the Threshold the Benz sounds great. Full, detailed, pristine ... like it should. SO.. how much of the whining about cartridges is just the rest of the system? |
@orpheus10 No, I did not end up with the Koetsu. The only Koetsu’s in my budget are probably too warm for my system. Although I may add one in the future. I also question whether they are that resolving --compared to a more modern design, like a Lyra, for instance. You mentioned ’hyper resolving’ leading to a lean presentation. I have no way of knowing this unless I hear the particular cartridge in my system, wouldn’t the same apply to all of us? Or to put it another way, perhaps a ’hyper resolved’ cartridge is exactly what one needs in one system and precisely what one does not in another. The lean potential could be totally system dependent, how would we know? Unfortunately, to really know the answer to these questions is one of the reasons why I started this thread... The theory is what I stated above, the reality---is anybody’s guess! |
@chakster It is clear to me that you have adoration for old cartridges that have a specific type of sound. Good for you. However, when you motion that my friend must have done something wrong or had a faulty cartridge, you are right...what he did wrong was to play the vintage model in the first place! You fail to see why any of these models can do harm...to that I say there may be numerous ways. Here's just one I can think of, the stylus was worn and damaged the groove ( oh, you say, we can have that checked by a 'professional'! What a joke! I had exactly that done years ago with a Kiseki I used to own, pro tells me it looks fine...problem was that he had NO clue as to what the original stylus shape should look like and therefore what a damaged facet looked like either! Do you really believe most of these guys have a clue about this aspect, because I don't). Remember also that a number of vintage models have different shapes of the stylus, some of which could be considered as close to cutters today! You mention cutting lathes, what is their main purpose...to cut grooves! Perhaps you don't believe this, but it takes just one play of a record to do irreparable damage to the groove....you want to take that risk with those old beauties! Like i said before, go for it! Now back to the original topic, I'm done on this subject. |
Dave I take just the opposite stance as you took below; almost all of the cartridges recommended on this forum are fast and resolving, but not "musical" enough for me; in other words, the favored cartridges sound hard and lean to my ears. "I personally believe that a buyer looking for a resolved and fast cartridge would be in for a shock....just based on the glowing Hyperbole filled reviews." |
"" Asia bucks the trend, as it is culturally acceptable for large, expensive systems ... within tiny apartments ""That’s me. Small one bedroom apartment. Giant stereo. Always..(Well for ten years I had a STUDIO apartment, no parking of any kind, with a giant stereo in the high rent part of town, then I wised up and move to the low rent area, including indoor heated parking, same money, twice the space and one bedroom type) I am typical American otherwise. |
Tang, in addition to the economics that were pointed out in the article, there are these; https://wealthisbeingtranfered.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/wealth-is-being-transferred-from-us-to-them/ Markets were manipulated with corporate money, under the direction of presidential administrations. Those who know are afraid to speak, and those who speak pay a price. The CFTC, the agency that has protected us from commodity market manipulation over the years, could not protect us from our own government in the White House. Those excessively high prices for food and gasoline decimated the lower middle class, and it's rippling up to the small business class presently. When you add up all the economic calamities that affected millions of people all over this country, you can see how they resulted in citizens having less money. In regard to Asia, the rich got richer, the same as here, but here there was a smaller percent that got richer, but they got incredibly richer, resulting in the "high high high end". |
@orpheus10 thanks for the link. I have a different take on the state of high end audio that is largely demographic/cultural. First, it is worth pointing out that the article in the link is very US centric. Are we talking about the decline of the high end globally or in the US? I think you would find that the high end continues to thrive in Asia, aided by the growing Chinese middle and upper class. Regarding the US (or, let’s say, the West). Being an audiophile is a time-consuming affair. Today, people have many more ways to spend their time than in the past. Folks are also leading busier lives leaving less time for hobbies. Ergo, the decline of golf and the ascent of less time intensive endeavours. People still enjoy hobbies but for shorter spurts of time. Society also suffers from collective ADD, thanks to more options of things to do as well as social media. Even if people had the time to sit and listen for a couple of hours, many people (not just young people!) would have trouble concentrating on listening for any length of time. Finally, condo living is increasingly prevelant so space is at a premium and neighbors near by. Unless you go the headphone route (which seems to be thriving), condo living isn’t ideal for the audiophile lifestyle, especially the high end. Again, Asia bucks the trend, as it is culturally acceptable for large, expensive systems to occupy prime real estate within tiny apartments. Not so much in the West. Sorry about going off topic but this trend impacts much of what we have been discussing. If the high end were larger, economy of scales would (potentially) provide for a better buying experience. @nrenter you make a couple of points I agree with but you do seem to be missing some of what has been recommended as solutions. For example, I think the manufacturer should provide select dealers with demos, with limited financial risk to the dealer. Yes, a house call is ideal but not necessary in many cases. Why would the dealer wait while you tested the cartridge? You have already paid a security deposit equal to the entire value of the cartridge. What ideas do you have to improve on the status quo? |
I don't necessarily share all of Chakster's adoration of all vintage cartridges over all modern, expensive MCs. I judge them all separately, and I do find that the old MM and MI types give more bang for the buck as well as more absolute bang, most of the time. Nor do I or Chakster claim that they last "forever". The point is that a "good" one has no more of a wearing effect on an LP than does a modern, brand new sample, assuming both are properly set up. (If you disagree, please divulge the scientific basis for your claim.) Do you want to get into a debate over who loves his LPs more, Chakster, Halcro, and I vs you and your friend with the Lyra Atlas? That strikes me as nonproductive. The fact is your conclusion based on your friend's experience is in error. But the debate about vintage vs new production is really separate from the main subject of your post. The fact is, as has been written here before by me and many, many others, the current method of marketing "expensive" cartridges has evolved over 40-50 years due to the nature of the marketplace and the economies associated with running an audio business, either a bricks and mortar type or a mail order type. And in fact, if you care to look, there are several businesses that WILL allow you to return a cartridge if unharmed and within a specific time window after purchase. Often, to be accorded such a privilege, you have to be a trusted customer with a good track record. Robin Wyatt is one who has been mentioned. I am pretty sure that Mehran, who sells ZYX will do that for folks he knows. Others have mentioned other companies. So, let's move on. |
People on this forum are the most uninformed, self centered people I have ever encountered as a group. Evidently setting up a high end turntable, buying, and installing a cartridge requires more attention than I realized. If demand was ruled by desire, and the ability to purchase high end audio, there would be very little decline. For a multiplicity of reasons, people can no longer afford high end audio. https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/decline-high-end-audio-sales-new-outlook/ |
@daveyf possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency! You must be kidding? They are at least equal (to be politically correct) to everything modern including $3-5K ZYX, Lyra, Ortofon and many other cartridges we have already compared to the best vintage ones. Some of us prefers MM/MI over MC. They are absolutely neutral and frequency response is flat over entire range. Your friend might have a worn/used average cartridge. We’re talking about some exceptionally good vintage cartridges, not about those carts that you can easily buy today, they are rare and people hunting for them. Also can you imagine that vintage cartridge can be NOS (New Old Stock, with intact diamond) ? How can you damage anything with it? Maybe your friend’s knowledge about vintage cartridges is very low, who knows, you never mentioned which particular cartridge are you talking about. Some killer vintage cartridges does not hand made in garage like today’s high-end carts from a very small manufacturers, but they came from industry giants like Technics/Matsishita Victor/JVC, Sony... etc with cost no object budgets utilized unique know-how in their flagship models back in the 70s/80s. The best recording techniques came from the same era, the best analog studio equipment, simply unbeatable til today. Actually some vinyl recorded earlier in the 50s and 60s are superb compared to the modern digital crap. Best studios still using disc cutting lathe machines from the same era! Studio tape machines from that, microphones from that era and many many more equipment. Why do you think a cartridge is an exception? I just don’t get the logic. Maybe it’s not for you personally, but please don’t full people with that crap. Those guys are pretty smart if they know how to sell a $5-20k cartridges today, but do you believe they are so much better, why ? You can comment only after you will compare some of them, but seems like you have another problem (you can’t audition modern high-end cartridges prior to buying, oops). |
Seems to me that br3098 has the clearest explanation. I'd love to have a stereo store, hang out, playing my favorite music, sending my faithful employee for a herb run ( I live in Oregon) and best of all- allow my customers to take anything they want, just to see/hear if they like it. In their own home! Then return it when they realize they don't like it, buyers remorse, found the same thing online for less $... But the reality is...see br3098's post. |
You guys just go on in your vintage cartridge bliss, like I said, they are absolutely NOT for me. My friend didn’t actually hear the damage until he went back to the Atlas...are you sure you haven’t already done the damage and have not heard it yet?..possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency! |
@daveyf I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right. The lifespan of the best diamonds is up to 1500 hrs at least, MicroLine and related Line Contact or MicroRidge diamonds invented long time ago. The best profiles to save the records if the set-up is correct. Minimum record wear! Who’s buyin vintage cartridges with worn needles? Maybe your friend has been cheated by the seller, but any vintage cartridge can be shipped for stylus inspection for about $40 to professionals. And while the old Koetsu is terribly made cartridge, i will give you an example of the vintage LOMC that NEVER has had a problem with suspension, it’s Fidelity-Research FR-7fz (or lower FR-7f series). Simply learn more about FR carts here. And do yourself a favour check this out - you will find a direct comparison between FR and different Koetsu. Some vintage carts (from particular brands) indeed have serious problem with suspension, but not all vintage carts. And actually it’s easy to check prior to buyin them by requesting a pictures from the seller. Honest sellers also made comments about suspension condition. And finally what’s the damage? Maybe you prefer to spend $5k on a brand new cartridge that you don’t like (or not involving to your ears)? |
The story about vintage cartridges making LPs too noisy to play when the Lyra was re-mounted sounds to me like hogwash.... Copy that... My a’phile friend destroyed thousands of dollars of great and collectible Albums. Oh sure.....he played what....20 records with a stylus that was ripping the grooves to shreds and he happily 'listened'....? Buy that...and you will believe this guy actually has something to offer and is not a Troll...🤮 |
@lewm, I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right. Therefore, playing them on your most prized and collectible vinyl is perfectly safe....you do that. I’ll pass on this idea... My a’phile friend destroyed thousands of dollars of great and collectible Albums....I have no intention of following in his footsteps. I say to you...go for it, lol. |
I just finished reading the reviews of the Koetsu Onyx Platinum and the Rosewood Signature Platinum along with the MSL eminent cartridge in the latest issue of Stereophile. Problem for me, and this is possibly because I have a pretty good idea of the ancillary gear that the reviews utilized in these reviews, is that unfortunately, none of it goes any way to show how very colored and warm these cartridges are...with the possible exception of the MSL. But if one were to just read these reviews and then make a buying decision based on them, I personally believe that a buyer looking for a resolved and fast cartridge would be in for a shock....just based on the glowing Hyperbole filled reviews. @nrenter you happen to be one of the dealers that are selling these cartridges? Because your clear bias is showing through loud and clear! I can tell this, you sir have never been in a buying position with a very expensive cartridge under consideration. Otherwise I seriously doubt your snarky attitude would be so prevalent. |
Wonder if the Tubestore will let me try out those match set of $20000 Western Electric 300B's they have listed. yeah another overpriced item that will blow eventually. And you wonder why there is $15000. carts because some people will pay the price period. no other reason, i'm looking at you diminishing returns. |
Davey, You're wasting bytes. What you want to happen is never going to happen. It's from an era that is dead and gone. Get used to it. Or maybe, move to Japan or Hong Kong. I would guess that home demo of phono cartridges can be done in those locales. The story about vintage cartridges making LPs too noisy to play when the Lyra was re-mounted sounds to me like hogwash or the result of incompetence on the part of the person who was doing the work. I own a dozen vintage MM/MI cartridges and 4-5 high end LOMC cartridges (ZYX Universe, AT ART7, Koetsu Urushi, Dynavector 17D3, Ortofon MC7500, and Ortofon MC2000; both of the last two are "vintage", I admit). I regularly switch back and forth between them. (I also own four turntables set up in two systems.) Properly set-up vintage cartridges with useable styli do not ruin LPs at a rate any faster than do modern LOMC cartridges. (But this is not the issue we are discussing.) |
I do not think @daveyf is being too pedantic... well maybe a little. Its amazing really. I'm one of those guys that has several top flight cartridges that had never heard any of them in my very own set up. I maybe heard a sister cartridge at the dealer's but never the one.. no one carried the top of the line and certainly would not lend it even though I have had good relationships with dealers on hard goods and taking those on trial. These cartridges are probably $15 k each at retail or more. Never heard one in my system nada. I try to triangulate based on hearing what I can where I can and read. It makes no sense for the consumer. I think @tangramca and I live in the same area. I have a dealer near me that has maybe 1/2 million in analog tables, arms and cartridges... really. I can't get a sign of how that cartridge in that arm .. (he has maybe 20 combinations)... would ever sound in my system. To complicate matters , often the brands I look at , Koetsu is one of them, are so heavily loaded with the local distributor's excess that I sometimes buy offshore from qualified dealers at 1/2 the price. I mean if a dealer is not going to carry the unit locally and just have it drop shipped - what's the point ? I weigh the risk and I have developed good long distance relationships with some dealers of alternative brands not available locally or so heavily priced in our small market that it is worth going off the reservation. I guess I do not expect dealers to lend cartridges.. however, I don't expect to pay full retail if you've never had it to demo, ever, and simply order on my behalf. I don't waste dealer's time.. actually I am probably a customer they would respect. I expect them to make money to pay the heat, wages, taxes and inventory. I rarely haggle-- I let the relationship bargain for me. Its easy to experience the value of dealer... and pay for it. with hard goods but cartridges have always been out of scope. |
Gosh, now you've got me thinking about quitting my job and selling (just) cartridges full time. Help me think through this...
What am I missing? |
The record labels rejoiced when digital came along (40 years in there are new problems of course). Vinyl mastering is fraught with potential for error. ( I know as i owned a vinyl mastering studio). Record pressing diitto. Damaged stock returns, yes. Then comes the replay. It's always been frustrating. And lovely too. However, I do feel there is potential to develop a new way. It would certainly help if market size was substantially larger as I alluded to before. The high end audio industry has traditionally given time away in exchange for product margin. Perhaps if the *skill* was compensated for (like say an electrician) the product margins could shift. Problem is most people (including many audiophiles) do not perceive that it is a skill to spec a well performing turntable arrangement, factoring in downtream system, and then expertly set it up. And seriously undervalue it imho. |
Given the extremely high price for some items, perhaps somebody would be willing to treat audio gear like an automobile--you can lease the item, meaning the substantial depreciation in value is covered by the lease payment. How about rent to own or some other kind of lease with an option to purchase? I dunno about the repo man though, he would have to break into the house to get back that amp or cartridge or whatever. |
@cleeds What you say about some speakers/amps is very true, but auditioning them in your system is not a problem for most of the dealers that I have experience with. Primary reason is that they are not a wear item like a cartridge, plus the dealers seem to have no problem stocking/re-stocking these pieces, or getting them if necessary! I don’t know where you shop, but can you really tell me that your dealer carries the full line of Koetsu,VDH, MSL’s, Air Tight’s Lyra etc.,? I serially doubt that they carry just one of these lines...and then most likely just one cartridge on demo.. if that. A better dealer? I’m open to suggestions in the S.Calif area? Remember that’s where I live- and I have a fair amount of experience with most (all?) of these folks. Also, I have absolutely NO problem with the dealer who can give me sales support and accurate information making a profit...NONE. This is why i ended up buying my new cartridge from just such a person...and not at a considerable discount online! I think it might be beneficial if you re-read my OP, as this is where the whole thread is based. Not on attempting to discover where the good dealers are. ( Although IF your dealer doesn’t follow the standard biz practices that we all are subject to...it would seem here in the US, and abroad...well certainly in Canada...myself--and I suspect most others, would like to know who these folks are..and IF they are in the US?) |
daveyf We are ONLY talking about cartridges here...not amps, not digital gear, not speakers etc., All of these items can be easily demo’ed in the consumers system ...Sorry, but many serious speaker systems and amplifiers are bulky, heavy, difficult to transport and not at all " easily demo’ed" outside of the dealer's shop. And while you say that when it comes to phono cartridges, for an audio dealer there's ... no inventory to stock ... no return policies ... huge margins ... no easy repair for the consumer ... another large profit center ...... that doesn't look like it applies to the few dealers where I shop. And that's why I suggest that you find a better dealer to work with, and accept that he'll be making a profit on the sale. |
@br3098 It appears to me that you are constantly confusing the difference between cartridges and other gear. We are ONLY talking about cartridges here...not amps, not digital gear, not speakers etc., All of these items can be easily demo’ed in the consumers system, and returned with no issue if incompatible. IMO, the Rolex example works reasonably well, because it is a high priced small item, one that has a large margin built in- and one that is also subject to considerable devaluation...( i don’t know what makes you think that all Rolex’s have appreciation, LOL. Next time you buy a Rolex, wear it for a few weeks or months and then see how much your friendly Rolex dealer is willing to give you if you want a return, LMAO) Here’s the difference between a Rolex and a high priced cartridge ( and where the analogy fails,IMO)...you absolutely know what you are getting with a Rolex the minute you try it on ( plus the dealer carries stock of Rolex's...usually!), not so with the various high end cartridges--because trying it on isn’t an OPTION! |
tangramca, actually I am a former (recovering) dealer. If I had the answer to your question I would probably still be a dealer today. In the 1970s and into the 80s there used to be dealers like you describe; I worked for one in the 1970s. But the high-end audio industry is a very different animal today. For one thing, much of the product available on the high-end is manufactured on a very small scale - one step away from a cottage industry. These shops cannot handle dealing with a multitude of dealers, nor are most dealers setup to coordinate with an infinite amount of manufacturers. Another reason: in the 1970s and 1980s, most audio products were manufactured by large, (mostly) financially secure companies. Today there is a plethora of products, including well considered high-end products being manufactured in someone's garage. There's nothing wrong with that, but almost anyone who has attended a major audio show could agree that "are there too many audio products available" is a valid question. I don't think that the Rolex analogy works well. Rolex devices are typically sourced through importers (aka distributors), and Rolex doesn't change models or features often. Also, if Rolex purchased by a shop doesn't sell it can be stored and resold much later at a higher cost as a "classic" product. Even if a dealer could afford to adopt a buy and hold strategy (almost none can), this has not proved to be largely not true for audio products, with the exception of NOS tubes. Despite what others think. I'm not defending the current status quo as the best system. But in reality it's the system we have and I don't believe it's going to change anytime soon. But as I wrote before, if any of you has a better business plan please put it into motion and let's see how the audio community supports it. Please advise us when you setup your GoFundMe page. |
One way to deal with cartridges is buy a new TT each time you need a new cartridge. Sell the old combo off. Whole new thread to whine about not 'just' not being able to try out a cart, but the entire TT/cart combo. When I bought ALL of the turntables I own, never heard them, never heard the cartridge. I guess I am just easy to please. Because they all sound great. |
tangramca, A reasonable approach for the situation mentioned by br3098 is for the customer to agree to pay the going rate for a house call. In my area, that is $120 to $150 an hour. So, it would be something like $840 dollars. If the customer chooses to buy the expensive cartridge, a portion, if not all of that amount could be rebated. If not, the buyer would be absorbing a painfully high amount, but, it would still be better than paying thousands for a cartridge that is not loved. Given how much the value of a used cartridge depreciates, that amount is still much less than buying a cartridge and then selling it as used. Because I have a very good relationship with a couple of local dealers, I got to buy my cartridges with a right to return them if I did not like them. These were not dealer demonstration cartridges, these where new cartridges ordered for me. I never returned the cartridges so the dealer did not lose out. This sort of arrangement is possible if there trust is developed with a dealer. When I was in the market for a high-end linestage many years ago, I went to a dealer who carried two of the brands I was interested in. He did not have the flagship models in his store that I wanted to audition. What he offered was to buy the flagship models of both brands on the promise by me to buy one or the other. This would work out for him financially. A dealer gets a substantially lower price for the first purchase of any model of gear from the distributor or manufacturer (this is to encourage purchase of a store demonstration unit). If I bought one of either models, the cost of both would be covered by the purchase. As it turned out, I like the first model he got in and bought it, so he never had to order the model from the other brand. I got a good discount in the deal, even without asking for it. This is how an arrangement has to be--it has to be financially worthwhile for both parties. |
@tangramca Another post that I totally agree with. The dealers like the current situation with high end cartridges just fine, thank you very much. Why wouldn’t they? After all, no inventory to stock, easy to ship with minimal expense, no return policies, very unlikely repair and after sale hassles, huge margins, probability that the unit will be damaged in the future....how many of the high end cartridges actually come with a stylus guard? --leading to another sale, no easy repair for the consumer...another large profit center; and a simple ordering process for them.... No wonder, IMHO, that there has been some considerable push-back here, and on other threads/forums, when this nice ’golden goose’ has been threatened! Whining, only from people that clearly have something to lose--and that’s become VERY obvious. |
@br3098 thanks for a dealer perspective. It is easy to have biases based on (limited by) personal experience. I live in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). One of the best analog guys in our area is an easy 30 minute drive for me. What do you believe is a sales model that does work/could work where customers can make an informed decision prior to the purchase of something that is as expensive as a Rolex and that wears out with use? Not disposable but also not maintanance-free either. Seems like there is room for dealers and customers to meet somewhere in the middle. |
@daveyf Your preference for vintage cartridges is interesting. Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in them regardless of the price, or the reputation. I like my vintage cartridges better than my ex ZYX Premium 4D SB - that was the most expensive modern High-End LOMC that i ever had and while it was a good cartridge (brand new from authorized US dealer), but for 5 times higher retail price than equal or even better vintage performers. I believe our @halcro compared his nice vintage carts to Lyra and many more morern LOMC and posted about it on audiogon in another thread. |
So much emotions around f. cartridges and often no less f. dealers. Don't we have anything better to discuss ? In any case, table/arm and phono are much more important. Put any modern $1000 MM in great arm with great table and phono and it will be capable of more than most can hear. Vintage cartridges are only for experts or if you have friends who are experts. Besides, there wouldn't be enough for everyone. If you think that better MMs don't have enough speed and resolution you are wrong, check the rest of your chain and the wall current. Anyway, tape is the only true audiophile medium, except direct to disc recordings, don't bother too much. |
elizabeth"Loaning things really only works with long time, repeat customers. The dealer knows the customer. The customer knows the dealer. Any other situation is folly for a dealer. As for manufacturers... They seem to be doing just fine as things stand. Why would one suddenly change" This is a very considered, wise, and thorough assessment of the topic under review here buying a cartridge for a music reproduction system is not a task that is especially difficult and for those who listen to vinyl it is a periodic task because as we all know cartridges wear out no matter how many swear that some 40 year old "new old stock" phono transducers are the better of today's top quality designs. |
