Update on the AXPONA Denafrips demo. The Venus is in the house (thank you Alvin) and I was able to set it up to play in parallel with the Terminator.
I can do real-time switching between the two for comparison so the demo will work. Having all four models in the chain will take a little more coordination but it should work fine.
I am expecting the Pontus and Ares soon.
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable
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@bube, "I had a recent session at my place to show off the system I am bringing
to AXPONA (including the Terminator) and everyone seemed to like it."
+1. I was there, and echo what Vinh said, everyone seemed to like it. Speaking for myself, I sure did
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Another update on the Denafrips demo at AXPONA. I am expecting the Ares and the Pontus this week and am planning on a dry run on Saturday afternoon March 31 in Farmingdale NJ. I can hook all 4 DACs and playing them simultaneously for comparison but I think pairwise comparison between two DACs is more effective and practical (it gets too confusing with more than two). I can also compare the Denafrips with any other USB DACs with a passive level-matching device.
PM me if you are interested in participating in the session.
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable
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I would like to attend this. |
Those of you who want to attend the session will need to contact me through the Gingko Audio website and give me your email so I can be in touch with details.
Vinh Vu
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Update on the Denafrips demo at AXPONA.
I got all 4 Denafrips models running in my system, hooked up
to the preamp inputs to allow for real-time switching among them. To ensure that the comparison is as valid as
possible:
·
Each DAC is connected to the server with a USB
cable
·
Selection of music tracks are done via an IPad
user interface
·
Fast switching between preamp inputs is done via
a remote to minimize delay
·
Volume levels are matched by using an SPL meter
measuring a pink noise track
·
If the two DACs have different output levels,
use a high-quality passive attenuator to dial down the higher level until the
SPL meter reads the same for both DACs.
·
The inputs of the preamp are set up for the DACs
without knowledge for the test audience
·
Although not quite a double-blind test, this
allows for a fair comparison between the DACs.
Using Roon, the music tracks can be synched perfectly but I
found that quick successive switching back and forth between many DACs is too
confusing, especially to others in the audience. I found that the best approach is a pair-wise
comparison between two DACs, repeating a familiar musical passage on one and
then the other. That way, the audience
hears the musical performance as a whole and each person can zero in the aspect
of the sound he/she is focused in to look for differences without losing the
perspective of the whole musical performance.
The demo dry run is scheduled for 2:00 PM Saturday, March
31, in Farmingdale NJ.
Send me your email if you want to participate in the session
and I will send details about the logistics.
Promises to be a fun event!
And you can legitimately claim to be at the true world premiere
introduction of the full line of Denafrips R2R DACs. Bring your own DAC and if we have time we can
do a head-to-head shootout under the same controlled conditions described
above.
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable
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@bube This sounds like a fantastic and one of a kind opportunity.
Doesn't look like I will be able to make it despite a strong desire to be there. Really looking forward to the out-takes from your event. |
I am looking forward to it. I hope to learn from the dry run to make the demo at AXPONA better. I hope someone on this board will be able to attend and give you all an unbiased report.
Vinh Vu
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Crickets chirping. Silence is deafening. I guess I will put my credit card away. |
Shadorne what do you mean? Putting your credit card away?I wish I live near this place where Vinh will do the demo....Iam looking forward to hear them at Axpona... |
@jayctoy ,
Will surely like to hear from you on this demo. Seems pretty interesting what 6moons said, Vs AudioStream. Not sure if we can trust online rags anymore. User reviews should be more useful. But we all ave some bias or the other. |
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Vinh nice demo, Milpai , yes I will do the best I can to describe the sound on each denafrips , for bonus I compare them with Schiit dacs ,they will be there too, I own Gumby though, I will do the best to be fair, going to Axpona my brain is already set on yagdrassil, I delayed the purchase because I might end up liking one of Denafrips dacs...or maybe just the schiit bifrost multibit, |
@Jayctoy, If you bring your Gumby, I can set up an after hour comparison with the Ares, which is around the same price range. Which driver does the Gumby use? All Denafrips uses Amanero which simplifies the interface with my Salk Stream Player.
Vinh Vu
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Vinh, What time is the after hours, my Gumby is multibit it’s $1249 , if I will bring my Gumby, I will let you connect it power wise as soon as I arrive, Friday before lunch, then we can listen after hours...that would be a very good idea...so we will have comparison.... |
@jayctoy Show hours are Friday and Saturday 10-6, and Sunday 10-4.
If you bring the Gumby we can hook it up Friday after 6 to compare with the Ares and Pontus.
Vinh
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Vinh thank you for this offer comparison, Iam in, I will bring my friend who mentor me on this hobby and music....it’s good to have onother ears.See you then.... |
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@bube What song is playing in the demo on You Tube? Not familiar with it, but I would like to hear it in my system as a baseline.
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@jayctoy Yes bring your CDs.
@1markr Believe it or not, as I didn't want to use copyrighted music, the track I used on the demo was a recording of a Middle School Band my son played in when he was 12. Not only the performance was great, the recording (unfortunately in mp3) was actually very good too, with good dynamics and clearly delineated soundstage. I will bring it to AXPONA as one of the sample music tracks.
If you are interested in it, email me and I will send it to you.
If there is enough interest, I can make it downloadable from the Gingko Audio website.
Vinh Vu
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Another update on the Denafrips demo at AXPON Now that I have had a week with all four Denafrips models in
my system, I thought I should summarize the goals of the demo to set the right
expectation for participants. I have
taken care to ensure that all four models have had at least 200 hours of break
in to make their performance comparable.
I have measured their output levels to ensure that they are the
same. All four are connected to the
server and preamps using the same cables (Danacable TruStream USB and Diamond
RCA ICs). Music control is via an IPad
using Roon so that all four DACs can be grouped into one Roon zone allowing perfectly-synchronized
music. So switching among the different
models can be simply done via a preamp remote. With that as the background, here is what to expect and what
not to expect:
-
I call it a demo instead of a shootout because I
dislike the term shootout. Shootout
seems to indicate something is going to get shot down and the expectation is there
will be a winner - the last one standing.
Even if you compare among many makes with different sound signatures the
concept of winners and losers requires a unique and definable set of measurable
standards. In all my years in the
business I have yet to figure out what these standards are. All I know is everyone listens differently
and like different things, and each has his/her favorite sound, just like
his/her favorite color. I assume that
all of us listen to enjoy the musical performance and hopefully are moved
emotionally by what the performer tries to communicate to us. High-fidelity is just a means to that end in
that it seeks to recreate the original performance most truthfully.
-
A demo is meant to outline differences if they
exist in the way the DACs sound. The
difference maybe so subtle that they essentially sound the same. Where there are differences significant
enough, one should be able to describe them.
That is more important than whether one likes one DAC over the other as
that is a totally subjective judgment.
-
As such, I find that it is more difficult to
discern differences among DACs from the same manufacturer. They may all have a common “house sound” that
fits the designer’s ear and any differences tend to be difficult to
define. So I expect the differences are less
pronounced among the different Denafrips DACs than between a Denafrips and a comparably-priced competitor’s
DAC .
-
So the results of a demo are only useful if the
subjects can clearly define the audible differences so that they can be used to
guide the determination whether one may like or dislike the DACs in
question. One must use this information
judiciously especially when the number of subjects in the test is small. A broad conclusion that one DAC is superior
than another has to be based on clearly defined and universally accepted set of
criteria.
-
So if the intent is not to shoot down any
particular DAC but rather to describe their differences then a pairwise
comparison is better than comparison among many DACs at once as it gets too
confusing with more than two things to focus on at a time.
With all of the above
considerations in mind, I plan to conduct the demo this way today:
-
Draw lots to assign the different Denafrips to
the different inputs of the preamp so the audience does not know in advance
which model they are listening to.
-
Again draw lots to select the two pairwise Denafrips
models to compare first, then the other pair. -
Play a selected music track for about one minute
so the audience can get a mental picture of the performance, then repeat the
same passage on another model immediately.
I find that this is better than switching in real time as it is
difficult to synchronize everyone’s brain to be ready at the time of the
switch. Also, you will be listening to a
different passage after the switching so it is difficult to correlate the characteristics
of what you have heard before and after the switch.
-
Ask the test subjects to keep notes for each
pairwise comparison as to whether they heard a difference and if they did to describe
it.
-
After enough pairwise comparisons to discern the
relative performance of the different models stop the demo and ask the audience
to share with the group their findings.
-
Again, the goal is to see if there are
differences among the models and if so how to describe them.
I will report findings of the session later on. They will help us decide how to streamline the demo
at AXPONA so that it is most informative and helpful to the audience.
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable
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Vinh agree 100%, excellent post, I hate shootout too. |
A demo is meant to outline differences if they exist in the way the DACs sound. The difference maybe so subtle that they essentially sound the same. Where there are differences significant enough, one should be able to describe them. That is more important than whether one likes one DAC over the other as that is a totally subjective judgment. + Perfect! Vinh, I wish I could have attended. All the best. And most importantly, enjoy the company and the music! |
The dry run of the demo was a successful and fun event for everyone involved. The process I had planned on went without a hitch, the feedback was plentiful and helpful, the food was good, the music was great, and the company was even better. What I got out of the meeting were:
- All four models have a similar Denafrips "house sound" that was enjoyed by all
- Even though it was a blind test (none in the audience knew which model was playing until the end when they have already formed and written down their opinion), the results were as expected, with one (explainable) exception -
everyone picked the Terminator as their favorite and the models' performances were commensurate with their price points, except the Venus, which sounded a little constricted (less open-sounding). That is probably due to the fact that the Venus had the least number of hours of break-in as compared to the other models (I have had the Terminator for almost 2 months and the Ares and Pontus were review samples). So the Venus needs some more break-in time before AXPONA.
- For the demo at AXPONA, a pairwise comparison between the Terminator and whichever model has the most interest from the audience - e.g., its price point is right - playing the same musical passages in quick successions would be best to show their respective performances.
- The system sounded right with all genres of music and is primed to show off well at the show.
Thanks to all participants, who came from NJ, NY, PA, and MD
(whose representative drove 3 hours each way to attend the event, thank you Richard).
AXPONA here we come!
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable
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@bube Congratulations on a successful demo and test for the upcoming Axpona show.
If any of the participants are active on Audiogon, it would be great hearing their takes on the demonstration event Vinh organized. |
Along with Al, Doug, Rich, Rick, and of course, Vinh, I also attended yesterday's DENAFRIPS demo.
Vinh did an excellent job laying out how everything went. The cameraderie was fantastic, and I enjoyed one of the best audio get togethers in a long while. It felt like we were all longtime friends. I'll add a few things, and surely will some of the others. Maybe I'm wrong, and will get corrected here, but it seemed like we didn't diverge much, if at all, in our opinions. Quite the surprise, as unanimity happens rarely in this hobby.
As Vinh mentioned, the overriding theme became the excellent DENAFRIPS house sound. Outside of one outlier, the Venus, due to less break in than the other three, I found the distance between the Ares, Pontus, and Terminator far less than what anyone, myself included, would have thought. Especially, in light of Dana's previous comments. Moving up each rung brought a subtle but discernible improvement in clarity, separation, refinement, and weight. What's a bit difficult for me to understand and explain is how small that difference was in light of everyone agreeing on the ultimate ranking. Really, what separates the $760 Ares from the $5000 Terminator requires effort from the listener (or, at least, me) to come to. That said, does the product line make more sense with three offerings instead of four?
Later, we also spent a bit of time with the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ and a non-oversampling Metrum model from less than a decade ago. The latter saw itself easily outclassed by the rest of yesterday's participants, and having served as a more than adequate component during the time it was offered, shows how much the past decade has benefited digital music reproduction. The Mytek presented real competition for the products we listened to yesterday. I didn't pay deep enough attention to it, and we didn't A / B with the DENAFRIPS offerings while I was there to accurately rate it, but it surely held its own. The preamplifier, phono, filter options, and American assembly only add to its appeal.
As some have brought up, DENAFRIPS success in the North American market will reflect it investing in building the requisite infrastructure or not.
In the end, I feel a bit unsure about where to recommend a person getting in. The Ares is a straight up no brainer. For me, the question becomes, does it make more sense for one wanting to spend more to get more to consider one of the middle units, or step all the way up to the Terminator?
Look out AXPONA show goers, you're in for a real treat in Vinh's room! |
I too
( the attendee from MD)
attended the very enjoyable session at Vinh's this past weekend, and first want to thank Vinh for his gracious hosting of this get together and effectively managing the setup and flow of the afternoon. And for me it was also (in agreement with trelja above) a most congenial and collegial group and we surprised me with our high level of agreement/analysis on the afternoon's activity and outcomes.
Vinh set things up so that the process was experimentally "blind" to the rest of us. We did not know which models we were hearing/comparing and we , not Vinh, were the ones that chose the units to be used in the pairings (and that was done in a random fashion with us drawing numbered beans from a bowl and not knowing which bean represented which Denafrips model). And for the most part we didn't reveal our impressions to each other until the end of the "test" sessions. We were of course, at some level of consciousness, aware of the in vivo reactions of each other as the session progressed.
At the end of the "testing" , through discussion we each revealed our personal focus as to what makes a component/system sound "good", and despite the usual differences in these factors, we pretty much agreed on the degree to which the Denafrips models contributed to our preferences. Bube (Vinh) and Joe (trelja) have described that above. As Joe stated, it was a very unusual occurrence that several 'audiophiles' unanimously agreed on the afternoon's results!!
The Denafrips models have much to offer our community and I hope many of you will have the opportunity to drop by the Gingko room (Rm 1524) at AXPONA to hear them. I will have the privilege of being there to help Vinh present.
Rich
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Hi Vinh @bube
A friend alerted me to this thread. Very interesting methodology and findings. I am going to be at AXPONA. How do I make sure to engage with the demo there? Did I read you were doing one every hour? Or is there a "special" session that has to be signed up for ahead of time?
Please advise! |
@austinpop We plan to the demo at least on the hour but we are going to be flexible. So if we have a full room and the attendees would like a demo we will be happy to oblige. The demo will be an abbreviated one unlike the session we had which took more than an hour. For the sake of simplicity, the demo at the show will be between the Terminator and another Denafrips model of the audience choosing and it will not be a blind test. We can switch between the two models but you will know which one is playing. To be sure to see the demo come on the hour, or just show up and hope for a full room :-)
See you this weekend.
Vinh Vu
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@bube Vinh, I’m sure you and others are busy setting up today.
Looking forward to hearing all about it when you get to take a breather after the show.
Wishing you all the best and a terrific show for your Gingko and Danacable product lines as well your Denafrips demos.
I also want to thank both Rich @drrnc2 and Joe @trelja for sharing your experiences and findings from Vinh’s event in NJ. Good stuff. Thank You! |
David I will be attending 3 days, will bring my Gumby and maybe my friend Metrum onyx, Vinh and I and my friends will listen after show hrs.... |
David since you can't come you miss your Chicago pizza and beer, but for sure you will read my comparison on Monday.i can't wait...😀
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@jayctoy ,
Will wait to hear from you and others on this thread on the Denafrips Terminator. Will there be any comparisons with other DACs?
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@jayctoy I'll be up in your neck of the woods, sooner than later...so keep the pizza warm and the beer cold! And your gear cooking!
Looking forward to your impressions of the Denafrips DACs, etc. and anything else Axpona related you want to share.
Enjoy the Show. |
Update from AXPONA:
We worked all day to get the system dialed in and it is sounding mighty fine!
Besides the Denafrips, we also have the world premiere of the new Wells Audio Commander preamp that takes the system up a notch.
Can't wait to the show opening tomorrow!
Vinh Vu
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@bube Vinh Vu, thank you for bringing the complete DENAFRIPS DACs to the AXPONA! My best wishes to a very successful show, I'm sure it will be! Many thanks. Rgds, Alvin @ VINSHINE AUDIO |
Let me first thank Vinh , Gingko crew, Dana cables, they are so cool, nice and very patience, Trelja you review on the four demo .Denafrifs are right on the money, very very accurate.This are very good DACS, Vinh is so good in explaining.Alvin thank you for sending all those DACS , I could sense most of the listener enjoyed them..You choose the right people to represent those Dacs.... |
David the pizza are always warm ready, beer remain cold waiting for you...I heard your terminator , indeed a very good DAC..,
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Update from AXPONA:
We had a pretty busy day today, unusual for a Friday at the show. Foot traffic was steady all day and we were able to hold quite a few demos with very attentive and responsive audiences. As the pre-production Wells Audio Commander preamp has only two inputs we ran the demo for just two DACs. So we let the audience pick one of the other models to compare with the Terminator without telling them which one was playing. After a couple of minutes playing the same musical passage we asked them to describe any differences they heard. Amazingly most of them can describe the differences readily even though they were subtle, as all the Denafrips have a familiar "house sound". We had fun doing the demos and it seems that the audience did too.
We expect a very busy day today and plan to run these demos as planned on the hour but will accommodate with impromptu on-demand demos if the room is full and the audience is game.
So show up with your best ears for a fun time.
Vinh Vu
PS. By the way, we are running a show special of the Gingko Audio ARCHs for the duration of the show. Use the coupon code AXPONA18 to get 18% off retail on ARCHs on the Gingko website.
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@ jayctoy Thank you for your kind words. We had a blast with the demos. They made the day go fast. Looking forward to another long but exciting day today.
Vinh Vu
PS. Thanks for the tip on MingHin Restaurant. The food was delicious!
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@jayctoy Great to hear. Glad you enjoyed the demos!
@bube Really cool that your first day went off so well. |
@jayctoy sounds like you're really enjoying yourself!
Would like to hear your impressions of how the Gumby sounded in the show system.
After things calm down from the show, maybe we can all share our impressions on the DENAFRIPS - sonics, price, and otherwise |
Trelja. I came back to listen again, my friends are very impress with all the Denafrips ..David it’s a blessings to hear all four... |
David , yes my friend , iam having a good time...
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I don’t know how Denafrips does it, The four dacs are excellent, I end buying the Ares, in my system , it’s so palpable , good imaging, slam, extension, very dynamic, musical, it’s better than my Gumby in this system..Iam impress.Vinh thank you sir, for accommodating my wife with good selection of music..Thank Richard and Norman....
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Before you buy expensive Dacs try one of the Denafrips they are excellent...and musical |
My first comparison between Gumby and my Ares is on my second system, Tekton impact monitor, and viva integrated, Yamaha 2100 sacd, In a couple of days or maybe this weekend, I will try to connect the Ares to my main system, using Omega rs8, Andra Eggleston Speakers , marantz 8005 sacd as transport, art audio preamp and art audio amp.My Gumby is well match with my main system, iam excited , how the Ares will perform in my main system, I would say both Gumby and Ares if properly match they are both spectacular unit.... |
After things calm down from the show, maybe we can all share our impressions on the DENAFRIPS - sonics, price, and otherwise @trelja +1 Looking forward to hearing more. |
@jayctoy That's awesome! Great that the Ares is working out for you. Congratulations. |
