Dynavector cartridges, old and new

Dear @bimasta: ""  the short cantilever has many obvious advantages ""

I don't know what you mean with " obvious " .

If shorter cantilever could has " obvious advantages " everyone will design its cartridges with way shorter cantilevers no matter what.

ZYX, My Sonic Labs, Benz Micro, VDH, Clearaudio,  Transfiguration, Dynavector, Koetsu, Ortofon, Lyra, etc, etc . today medium to top models outperforms any of those Dynavector short length cantilever models or the ones named wrong " cantilever-less " cartridges.

Today exist cartridges next to 20K dollars where designers made it all they want in a freeland: cost no object and very short cantilever length is not " there ".

You can have for less than 800 hundred ( second hand. ) a 17D3 and for less money the 23R and OBVIOUSLY can't compete with the Lyra Atlas or the Universe or Colibri or the Coralstone or XV1s.

So what are you talking about?
R.

I think each innovation usually patented by the person/company who invented them. Each cartridge designer/manufacturer invented their own unique things. This is why each cartridge is different and we can decide which one is better in our systems. 

For example 7 unique patents belongs to ZYX in design of the Premium 4D model as i can read in the manual that comes with my 4D. Each cartridge designer believes that his cartridge is the best ever. 

Here is Nakatsuka-San (ZYX) statement:

"For both MC and MM cartridges, 15 vital design points apply, however they are not the same in each caswe. Only in our ZYX series have these points been correctly identified and attended to, and thus only the ZYX series can play Real Stereo. The 15 vital design points for a MC cartridge are as follows" :

1. Magnetic pole direction
2. Coil winding direction
3. Coil winding method
4. Prevention of dynamic included current in the coil bobbin
5. Prevention of dynamic included current in the magnetic circuit
6. method of prevention of dynamic included current
7. Prevention of dynamic included magnetic flux in the magnetic circuit
8. Grounding of coil bobbin (yes or no and method therof)
9. Grounding of yoke (yes or no and method thereof)
10. Grounding of magnet   (yes or no and method thereof)
11. String of output terminals
12. Case material (metallic or non-metallic)
13. Grounding of case  (yes or no and method thereof)
14. Electrical connection between cartridge case and headshell
15. Direction of wire drawing

Now we can look at the Miyajima cartridges (for example, as the oppositeto ZYX) to see that these cartridges are completely different compared to ZYX. Miyajima-San invented cross-ring method, cantilever of his top cartridges made of exotic bamboo and the cartridge body made of exotic hardwood. 

Which cartridge is better? There is no direct answer. All i can say they are very expensive cartridges. But when it comes to some $20k cartridges i'm getting sick of it. I would rather buy reel to reel instead. Spending 20k on a cartridge is like buyin yourself a private jet. Definitely not for every audiophile. And i don't care if they are better, the price is insane! 

I should have not said that...
But I say thanks for Chakster for the Dynavector links but I still can´t find my sample there. Mystery not solved yet. Mine may also have a hyperelliptical stylus tip on short boron cantilever as the sound is very refined.

Very well, as also this little correspondence apparently shows and thus reminds me one of the greatest thinkers of our time, Ludwig Wittgenstein. So sadly unknown to majority of humans, also here at Audiogon. Despite our Nandric´s constant reminders. And like we this or not Wittgenstein was absolutely right.
" Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen".

And I would like to take this opportunity and introduce you another great man, our national hero, well for some at least (smile), M. A. Numminen and his interpretation of the subject. This is a homage to great Wittgenstein:
https://youtu.be/CGksgZKecKE

Dear chakster, In your post (07-10-2018) you mentioned that
Tominari made 60 samples of Nova 13 D for USA market. 
This may explain those ''astronomical'' prices which you hate.
But you should know better because you should know how
the new rich in Russia compete with each other. They compete
with prices because they never learned ''the connoisseur art''.
Like the first English capitalist who copied English aristocracy
because they had no idea what to do with their money.
So all those ''insane prices'' are meant for the ''new rich'' and
not for us the ordinary forum members.

Harold-not-the-barrel:
Although I only watched the clip once, I believe the musical Wittgenstein is a relative of Ludwig Wittgenstein. 

BTW the admonition you quote from the end of the Tractatus, viz,  
" Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen".
is derived from the predecessor Nietzsche, who L.W. must have studied, viz.:

"Of that we cannot speak nobly, we must perforce be silent."

Back in grad school I wrote a paper on the irony of L.W. using this remark.

BTW the "new" XX2 series Dynavector is one of the great bargains in audio and is compatible with a wide series of tonearms. Mr. Pranko  gives great support to endusers and dealers alike.The top of the line Dynavector cartridges are sensibly priced and slap the $20k cartridges around.

Ivan, you are absolutely right: we must not forget Friedrich Nietzsche. In music, his ideal for Übermensch is also introduced in "Zarathustra" by Italian rock band Museo Rosenbach, in 1973. One of the very finest albums of that special subgenre, Classic Italian Progressive Rock.
Btw, I just sold my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D w/ its integrated aluminium headshell (Limited Edition of 60 samples), not because it isn´t good enough for my system (it is more refined sounding than AT-ART9) but I just don´t need anything extra for any cartridge. And to fund my other MC desires, of course. And in the end of the day, all this is just recycling, like we all do it.
 

Your cartridge, Harold, is most likely refurbished/recantilevered 13D, but not the original. The index "13" is nothing else but the length of the Diamond Cantilever (1.3 mm). Your Dyna has Boron Cantilever of the different length, if the length of the cantilever is not 1.3mm it is not the original.  

Yes I noticed that the cantilever wasn´t made of diamond but it is gray so probably boron but it is short (about 3 mm if I remember correctly). It was advertised as a very limited edition with number 1 stamped on metal, but no DV logo and wooden body is longer that "real" 13D. So possibly it is a prototype for all those short-cantilevered Dynas ? 
Anyway, it is an excellent MC with refined and dynamic sound, also w/o its aluminium headshell and tracks 90 microns. It may be better w/ headshell but I´m not interested in integrated cartridge designs and I never used w/ headshell. Buyer says it´s a great buy so good for him.

I had Dynavector 10X4 in the ’80s used for a long time, the sound was good and I was satisfied but the improvement was when for the pleasure of trying I removed the red casing ... the sound improved considerably leaving me impressed; at that time there was no talk or very little was known when the casing of cartridges was removed and the sound became better.

Since then it is possible to remove the casing from the cartridges I use.

@lewm 

Saw something interesting on the spec sheet for the 17D3; the internal resistance is 38 ohms! This means don’t use the standard 100 ohm load that one would normally use for an LOMC with 0.3mV output. It also means that the 17D3 has relatively large coils and relatively weak magnets. I am in no way saying or thinking that these numbers predict mediocre sound quality. As I recall, when it was introduced, the 17D3 was something of a giant killer at its original price. I still have not auditioned mine, which has very low hours from new. (It is from the estate of my dearest audiophile friend; I was consulted on his decision to purchase it, although he was at least as knowledgeable as I will ever be.) I actually heard it on his system once or twice before his symptoms of dementia became very advanced. We both liked it.

I would load mine at no lower than 1000R, maybe 47K.
Chakster, how do you load your 17DS? 

 

I can't remember, but most likely i've tried 470 or 2200 on JLTi phono stage with that Dynavector. 

BTW with my Ortofon MC2000 i use only 47 Ohm on the Gold Note PH-10 phono stage, because recommended load impedance for this cartridge is 20-100 Ohm (stated in the manual). Cartridge internal impedance DC resistance is 3 Ohm.   

I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua and curious about retip options for the future.

Was looking at the Sounsmith Sussuro, and while I have enjoyed their carts in the past, I wonder if the high price tag reflects the smaller outfit and time for production etc. given it is a small shop. Not saying price = sound but I've always wanted to try this Dynvector having never owned one.

I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua

Let us know what you think, must be a great cartridge 

The only problem of those Te-Kaitora and X-1s Dyna cartridges is unprotected cantilever which is so easy to destroy assidentally. Some other carts on the market from various manufacturer have the same problem, personally i would never buy any of them for this reason. I feel better with conventional design, when the cantilever is under the cartridge body and protected from left and right side a bit better. 

I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua and curious about retip options for the future.

DV does retip and refurb carts above the XX2 line.

Thanks. @chakster Yes agreed but it's time I spin with a Dyna! Maybe I will try the Sussuro soon too.

Back in 1980 I bought both a diamond and a ruby cantilevered Karat.  Both were superb, but I prefered the ruby and sold the diamond.  These were killer cartridges .... which I'd love to have today.  Better than most MC's and equal to or better than my AC-2.

I was running the Dynavector 17D3 on my new Technics 1200G and it sounded great, but I recently bought a AT Art 9 which to me sounds better on the 1200G with overall beter tone from top to bottom but less wide sound stage from the 17D3 but the Art 9 has only 50 hours on it still need more time. But when you put the Dyna 17D3 on my Rega RP8 is really sounds amazing huge sound stage through out. Probably going to put on here soon my RP8/Dyna 17D3 for sell. On another note I am curious if anyone has used the 17D3 and also listened to the new 17DX is the price jump worth it?

AT-ART9 needs at least 150 maybe 200 hours to really sing. Mine has just reached 190 hours (285 LP play) and sounds wonderful and nicely balanced w/ very deep soundstage at 1.8 g VTF and 100 Ohms, very slightly raised pivot. Has become my reference MC. The new 17DX is very tempting I admit.

This thread made me curious to try one of the Dynavectors and I managed to pick up a Karat 23RS in 'as new' condition for 300 euros. Judging by its visual condition I seriously doubt it has ever been used, so it may need some playing time to settle. But actually it's one of those cartridges that sounds great straight out of the box. First impressions suggest it's very open, dynamic and 'alive', with unusually strong bass performance. The highs were a bit edgy in the first few hours, but this trait is already melting away.

So here's another great 'vintage' cartridge that in direct comparison could embarras some of those overpriced MC's in today's inflated market place. Recommended!

It’s 6 months later. I am really really really going to mount my 17D3 in my new Yamamoto CF headshell and then install it on the same DV505 tonearm that now bears the ART7, TODAY. Honest.

After some break in time, I’ll report here on the comparison.

Very interesting, we hardly can wait. The ART7 has very low output, 0.12 mV exactly the same as the Highphonic MC-R5 that I will compare to ART9 in near future after some break-in time...

Upgraded to DV KARAT 17D2 mkII recently, another Dynavector in collection. Any users of this beast ?

review on enjoythemusic

I am a big Fan of Dynavector cartridges. I have owned my Linn LP12 /Ittok for close to 30 years. For several years I used the 10X4 models, but then when I bought a used Aro tonearm it came with a Karat (was it a Karat 19A mk II? I don't remember...) mounted on it. At first I thought the cartridge was just junk - the stylus was so tiny I couldn't see it - but I took it to work and looked at it under a microscope and was shocked to see the stylus there, looking fine. I mounted it and played it through a Linn Linto phono stage and that was it. I was hooked. This cartridge was eventually replaced with a 17D2 - I think I went through two of those - and now I'm using a 17D3. Still through the Linto, which has now been serviced. I have great respect for the Dynavectors and think they are excellent. However, I've never tried other cartridges and there are so many out there. I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to switch brands.

For those of you who have previously enjoyed a 17D2 or 17D3 and moved on, I'm interested to hear what you've moved on to and how you think it compares. In many ways this hobby is difficult, because it's hard to imagine something better than what we have until you hear it... That's kind of where I am at. I know there is better stuff out there, but I'm pretty satisfied with the sound of my system.

Your Linn combo is a mediocre performer, no more no less.
You would be amazed when hearing a true quality turntable/tonearm and you Karats will start to shine.
For a belt drive deck I warmly recommend a vintage ORACLE DELPHI MK III at most with original GROOVE ISOLATOR "sorbothane" like mat (but not sticky like sorbothane), don´t waste your time with hard acrylic mat and stiffer suspended models starting from MK IV they sound worse (dull). I have had four different Delphis over the decades and know what are the best sounding ones.

Good luck, whatever you may search for. Because you really need just that.

More information about GROOVE ISOLATOR here:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-oracle-groove-isolator-the-original-special-compound-ru...

I too found the LP12/Ittok 'mediocre'. But I tried the Ittok on other tables (including Oracle Delphi II) and it excelled. The LP12 was the weak partner IMO. I still use an Ittok 25 years later for certain MCs. 

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Dynavector Ruby was the best cartridge I owned until the Accuphase AC-2.  Superbly natural .... find one in good shape today and you have a keeper.

@harrylavo Dynavector made several versions of KARAT Ruby, the better version have "MicroReach" stylus profile, the older version has just an Elliptical stylus. 

Same about Karat Diamond, the better versions are all have MicroReach and MicroRidge diamonds. 

I think this is a huge advantage over the old versions, because the life-span of Elliptical stylus is too short, but the MicroReach (MicroRidge) can be used for 1500-2000 hrs max.