Focal Kanta No.2

@mmeysarosh 
 Not sure where you get the -6dB @ 34Hz from, but Focal's published figures tend to be spot on and they claim 29Hz. 

Regardless, the Kanta No.2 is the logical upgrade path from the Aria 936 based on intended room size, listening distance, and response characteristics, and I'd expect it to sound similar with refinement. These are both full range speakers by any definition of the term. I routinely jam Bassnectar through my 936's and feel no need to augment them with subs. I'm suspecting the No.3 will feature 2 8" F cone drivers like the 948 sports in a substantially larger box, and I'm leaning twin 8's because it has to be front ported due to the plinth design. I don't expect it will dig much below 30Hz. 

Mmeysarosh, I have to report that the bass response in my room using my Krell Vanguard is phenomenal.  The Transparent Ultra Gen 5 cables don’t hurt, but the double basses on orchestral works are completely realistic and so natural.  Midrange is one of the most complete and full I have owned.  Highs are crystalline but grain free...violin is natural and pure without glare or excess sheen.  Easily dropping well below 30hz in room.  The only bass information below the Kanta’s cutoff is electronic bass and pipe organs lowest notes.  

Kanta no3 will be out soon enough. Two 8.25” woofers and bigger cabinet. Should easily satisfy your “full range” needs for about $3,000 more...

As someone who has actually heard and spent a lot of time with the no2’s (what a concept!), I find the bass to be intensely impressive based on cabinet size.  Can’t wait to hear the no3.

The measurements are from German magazine Stereoplay and I would expect a -6db @ 29hz and that specification from Focal is likely specified for the average room. They also tested the Sopra 3 and came up with -6db @ 29hz for the larger twin 8.25", which would give you a pretty full range performance.

The Sopra's and Kanta alike have a quick roll off in bass, in due to keeping driver distortion at a minimum.  There are likely no 6.5" driver that could go realistically below 30hz at an appreciable level without getting into excessive distortion. They did the appropriate thing by keeping the design low distortion, which would be an expectation for most at this price. Now as for its bass performance to its size, hard to really tell since the size isn't easy to determine with the dimensions being taken a bit from the footer. But the speaker doesn't appear overbearing in size by any means. 

Does anybody know if Kanta No. 2 is going to be demoed at AXPONA?  I have reservations and tickets in hand!  I really need to hear these before proceeding with any speaker purchase.  Nobody within hundreds of miles from me seems to have these, sadly.

@mmeysarosh 
No. The Focal published specs are anechoic measurements and generally reflect the anechoic measurements taken by JA at Stereophile. Nobody takes measurements, especially in the bass region, in a room. The measurement results would be as much a product of the room performance as the speaker performance. 

This is the core of the point I'm trying to make. People look at frequency responses which are universally taken in an anechoic environment or something simulating a speaker responding in a free air half sphere, and the assume those are the figures they're going to get in a typical room. They absolutely aren't. Something with a -6dB low point at 29Hz will likely be completely flat to at least that point in a real room with sensible placement. 

The sharp roll off is a product of the port tuning point which is probably 35Hz, give or take. The port quickly unloads the driver much below that point and does the exact opposite of stemming distortion. Once the woofers are unloaded by the ports mechanical damping takes over. This is why Focal aggressively damps their drivers. 

You can also look at the NRC measurements for the Sopra 2 and see that Focal's figures don't correlate at all with Focal specified frequency response for the Sopra 2. That test is in the NRC chamber and you can see crossed response the steps into the port response and requires room reinforcement. Stereophile had indicated the larger Sopra 3 had its port tuned to around 32hz. Based on the NRC chart, the Sopra 2 is around 36hz and I would likely guess the Kanta could be around 38hz port tuning due to its slightly lesser specification as compared to the Sopra 2. The takeaway is simple, The Sopra 2 or Kanta 2 aren't full range designs and neither are they meant to be. The Sopra 2 does have decently low distortion at pretty honest 90db. The tweeter does lose linearity at 95db. I would expect distortion would be increasing anything above that level. Look at the distortion the NRC recorded for the Sopra 2 at 95db, it doesn't rise to appreciably from the bass drivers. I consider this to be a good design choice as you really don't want it to muddy the mid bass and lower mids. Now look at the Kef Reference 3 at the NRC. They decided to permit their small drivers to push just a bit lower than Focal had. When pushed at 95db, the distortion levels rise notably above what the Sopra 2. I prefer the Focal design route here in not pushing a smaller driver further than need be. The Sopra 2 distortion ends well below 200hz, the Kef Ref 3 end just shy of 400hz.  Kef had done a better job in keeping the mid and tweeter driver in terms of linearity and distortion, but the Sopra does have a wider dispersion in most the the usable audio band. 

Now lets be honest hear, Focal's spec sheet is lacking just like every manufacture throughout the speaker world. Also, not a single speaker designer on the planet will attest to 6.5" drivers being able to appreciably reach full range response without significant distortion of driver itself, or any driver in production at least. To engineer drivers that possibly could might take half the cost of the speaker given the use of four in a stereo pair. The spec sheet is a rough guide, but none are a gold standard as every maker knows that they need to market any product in the best light possible, even some notably fudging with the numbers to get there.

If you want to see some impressive NRC figures, the Magico S5 is superbly impressive in the bass area. The tweeter distortion is also great, just not linearity. He has seem to made some strides since then.

I will give the Sopra 2 a nod for being one of the better speakers at its price point. Even the Sopra 3 is pretty damn good at its point and I would say the Canton 3K the nod for best competitor to the Sopra 2. The Kanta 2 is well priced in Europe, just not here. The Contour 60 is quite the opposite being nine thousand euro and ten grand here. I consider the Kanta slightly expensive in the US, but it does have the best aesthetics of any of the close competitors.  The Kanta 3 might very well be the overall ticket since I'm not very appreciable to the stature of the Contour 60. The Magico A3 seems interesting, but a certainly a very plain looking box. The listening later on shall tell all.

Who’s NRC??? The ONLY accurate way to measure a speaker’s bass response is in free air. Even the best anechoic chambers create boundary reinforcement. That’s why JA at Stereophile does his measurements in a field. And his measurements of virtually every speaker he’s tested agree with Focal’s specs generally within the margin of experimental margin of errors.
What's more, getting clean 30Hz response from a 6.5" driver is hardly impossible. I have no doubt the Kanta No.2 can do it.

All I can say is that the Kanta No2 has one of the most natural and realistic bass presentations I’ve heard.  Strings also sound very much like the real thing.  Overall they deliver a very authentic reproduction of the source.  Not overly zingy or exaggerated in any frequency range...great scale and soundstaging with oodles of ambient detail.  I’m very pleased and I would say that pricing is commensurate with the competition.  I can also verify that deals can be had on most speakers if you shop around!

The NRC is a Canadian measurements lab for speakers with NRC standing National Research Council. It was developed by Dr. Floyd Toole, who even JA would refer to as one of the people who defined loudspeaker measurements for modern speakers and currently is employed with Harman Corporation. Harman has a more advanced development of what he started at the NRC. John Atkinson has referenced Dr. Floyd Toole in his own documents on loudspeaker measurements.

Also, look at the NRC charts that Soundstage has published. In the more than fifty speakers measured with 6.5" drivers, not a single unit was able to produce 30hz cleanly without appreciable rise in distortion. It may be negligible at low levels, but it quickly rises above 80db. Could it be done? Yes, I believe it can be made with some extremely expensive materials. I run an FEA lab used for a certain disciplines of engineering and I can tell you about materials that cost is beyond the budget of most loudspeaker implementations. The other factors would pertain to the motor structure in the former, magnet structure, the coil would have to be very high power handling to have extremely long excursion. The surrounds require some impressive roll as well not to mention the spider.

In fact, Focal themselves have pioneered technology into production that does address a number of issues in their EM series drivers, which replaces the permanent magnet with an EM instead. This would allow the motor to reach the excursion required without extreme power loading. If stanene (very new material that holds huge promise) wire would be used, it could really create an incredible powerful motor/field structure. The cone would still require additional rigidity or more of them to spread the load and the suspension would still be a possible issue, but maybe if you implemented suspension via EM with the ability for the former to have a rest position when off, it might work out. Build the former and cone into single solid piece while reinforcing cone. But this wouldn't be in the budget of the Sopra line unless the driver in question went into volume production. I mean tens of millions per year of the very same driver.

I know, its a great deal of techno babble when all you need to is to use larger cones drivers to get there for much less cost. Old engine line, no replacement for displacement. Well, that isn't true any longer and it could possibly be true in speakers at some point. Just not today.

@mmeysarosh 
The only difference between the woofers in my 936's and those in the Kanta No.2 is the motor. They're specifically designed to be more linear at longer excursions. 

But again to my point: there's very little going on in the vast majority of music that needs extension much below 40Hz. A speaker with a low point in the 30's doesn't require a sub in a typical room unless you're absolutely obsessed with overblown bass. The one issue I'm always hearing and reading about with speakers that have active bass systems is that they sound unnatural and require constant adjustment. Given a choice between Kanta No.2's and Golden Ear References, I'm taking the Focal's all day long just because they'll always sound more natural. 

@mtrot Where do you live?  If you live anywhere near the new Axpona location, there are three dealers right around there that have Kantas.   

Techno babble is great fun but like I said originally, after hearing a performance live of the PSO at The Kimmel Center and then listening to the same symphony at home on the Kanta 2’s, it was uncannily similar!  Rarely has that been my experience.

I addressed your point numerous times, part is due to my room configuration and part in musical preferences. I stated as such early on and at this point, your arguing for the sake of and nothing else. For myself, it matters and obviously it appears less so to your or want it to be for some particular reason. 

Golden Ear is agreeably focused on home theater experience and not musical listening. I never even considered them and the products I mention are proper competitors. Take a moment and seek out the Contour 60's. The bass is tight, taught, and isn't over exaggerated in the least bit. Also, the Focal EM drivers aren't active, but he permanent magnet is replaced by an electromagnet and can produce a field with nearly three times the magnetic flux. The issue being the added power requirements, but as I said that with new materials could obviate some of those issues. 

I'm assuming your room isn't large so this might play a role in your preference. It might also be your musical tastes don't present much lower bass demand. Making any assumptions for others is being myopic.

Techno babble is fun in the terms that it give ideas onto where things go next. Speaker performance in my view has some ways to go yet still. The engineering exercise in my view is rather interesting.

@ contuzzi

Well, I live in east Texas and I've looked around a bit in Dallas and didn't find any Kanta, or even any Focal, for that matter.  Perhaps I need to look some more.

But I do have AXPONA tickets and a room reservation in hand!

@mmeysarosh 
My room is on the smaller size of average I'd say. It's about the smallest space Focal recommends for 936's. I made that choice quite deliberately because you're virtually always going to end up with better bass reproduction from 2 sources instead of 4. If I hadn't considered that a significant problem I'd have bought 1008 Be's and augmented them with subs. I'm well aware of the EM drivers. That technology is far to expensive to apply to $10,000 speakers. That's why they use NIC motors to increase the linearity of the motor over long excursions.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. You made a statement that gets tossed around here a lot based on what appears to be a misunderstanding of what a low point measurement is. 

@stereo5 
I do think the big GE's are more voiced for HT use. Movie soundtracks aren't as disrupted by insanely overblown bass like the big GE's are prone to from one music track to another. Their voicing strikes me as hyper-real while being polite and clinical with weaker image depth. They lacked something Focal brings to the table. 

There have been a few mentions here of a new and bigger Kanta No.3 coming soon, yet I’ve seen no info to that extent even from Focal when I inquired. Since I would likely be all in if this were the case, I’m wondering if the anticipation for such is from a verifiable source rather than just a `wish for’ possibility?

@stereo5 
No dung being flung, many speakers aren't agreeable to wide number of listeners, otherwise no choices would exist perfect sound would be replicated by the worlds only loud speaker manufacture.

Also, let it be known that non should have an opinion that differs than your own and acute hearing leaves us only dreaming of sound that only your gifted self can experience. This last sentence being a true representation of horse dung.

A good number of people who feel that way about GE products and others that only exude praise for them. But what I can say is the the Triton One had pretty notable treble flair starting at the upper mid to lower treble transition. The also have a an elevated upper treble to compensate for dispersion loss at 10khz and above. It also displays some vertical dispersion changes. Not to mention the mid driver has been measured to have an appreciable amount of distortion in nearly all of its operating range. Not a benchmark performance, even at some of its given prices.

So their difficult to setup well, do not have as clean a reproduction of critical ranges, and have driver linearity issues at the tweeter. Now they have recently improved the distortion figures in the plus series and further improved the dispersion characteristics in their reference series. In listening, imaging is wide but depth is somewhat shortened compared to others. 

I've heard the Vandy Quartro Wood and not my cup of tea, but certainly not bad at all. Neither is the GE line for what I would say overzealous upper end response, but it has improved over recent versions which I admittedly haven't heard.

In any case, your response is silly, pointless, and expressed with glaring lack of tact in expression and so noted for future futile responses.

In room bass response is quite dependent on well, the room! When any speaker has less overall space from its boundaries, the overall energy dissipated moving through the air is reduced. It returns to you from the boundary at a greater level than what would have in a larger room, not to mention the volume of air.

With that, bass preferences will certainly be room dependent as larger more extended speaker could easily overload a smaller room.

In any respect, I do prefer what Focal chose to do with their bass drivers. They do have useful output int he lower mids and I always prefer if we keep them working cleanly in their range.

@stereo5 
No... I didn't flag any of your posts, but I just flagged your last one.

As a matter of truth, ALL of the GE speakers suffer from aberrant behavior in the treble region that looks like reflections from the AMT aperture. All of their MTM configured speakers suffer from discernable vertical comb filtering as well. I understand what the bass level adjustment is for. It's an inadequate solution to poor placement.

@butler 
It's a presumption that there will be a No.1 and No.3 since the No.2 is obviously a middle of the series product. If there weren't going to be other speakers in the series, why call it Kanta No.2 instead of just Kanta? 

@kosst_amojan, we shall see if and when a No.3 comes to be.  For me it will be about the timing as I'm planning to pull the trigger on new speaks shortly after the Munich show unless there is some real news about a bigger Kanta that would give me pause.  So, I hope the No.3 comes before, or concurrent with, a No.1..... 

I have heard them at a fair and they sounded great. I also read a review in a Swedish hifi magazine and they were very impressed and thought it was a good buy at its price Easy to listen to with a very, very good treble and a fast bass.

@mtrot 

There's a dealer in Dallas area - DFW Audioguy.  

He has yellow Kanta 2 in his store.   

@kosst_amojan I agree.  I listened to Triton 2s a while ago, and came away with the distinct impression that they were primarily voiced with HT in mind.

I listened to Triton 2s a while ago, and came away with the distinct impression that they were primarily voiced with HT in mind.

Of course, you, Kosst, mmeysarosh, and all others are entitled to their listening preferences and opinions.

Triton naysayers should consider another listen or hearing confirmation check, as I come to learn (today, and unconfirmed although via a reliable source) that the new Stereophile Recommended Components issue is out and the Triton Reference (yes, I know I’m quoting your T2 comment) is in CLASS A - FULL RANGE. **AND** the **least expensive** member of that very-elite group, by a factor of 2x.

Just sayin :)

@ joey_v

Thanks, looks like he carries not only Focal, but also a lot of the other brands I'm interested in!  Will check it out.

@gdhal 
That's cool. Somebody out there needs to make a really good home theater speaker. 

I don't think I've ever said I don't like GE's. I didn't buy them because they failed to convey the aggression and grit some of the music I like calls for. 

@kosst_amojan


All good.

Besides, as a general rule of thumb, as far as this forum is concerned, I consider you a Phriend :)

@gdhal 

I have seen three sets of measurements out of the Triton Reference and I will agree that its a considerable improvement. Even the plus series showed good progress from prior versions. Nonetheless, Stereophile just like all other reviewers are ranked subjectively and all of us feel and hear differently about the sound we like. I was honestly surprised the Sopra 3 was placed in the Class B Full Range category, but this isn't the only time a head scratch moment has come from their listings. Every other subjective ranking for the Sopra series have held them in higher regard. While I don't think the Sopra are SOTA, I do feel they offer performance nearing the top of their price categories.  With the strides that GE has made, and what I expect will be made in light of the Reference model, they do warrant an additional audition. In respect to the Kanta2 and other models that may or may not flesh out of the line, they should come out as pretty solid speakers. A little pricey, but nothing obscene. Love the overall look though.

In any review, a combination of system synergy, musical preferences, room, and your own personal preferences to the sound will impact how one regards a product. I believe your must understand a reviewer in all these terms to understand the perspective. When they discuss the music they used in the review, a speaker history and comparisons if possible, and disclosure about the complete environment is really necessary to get a frame of reference.   

@mmeysarosh 
Yeah... I'm pretty sure the Sopra No.3 belongs in a better class than my 936's. 

Thank you @mmeysarosh. Your previous response herein is very well stated, and rather gentlemanly like too for that matter. In principal, I agree with you.

@stereo5 

Well damn! The Triton 1 is only as good as a Focal 936? That sounds like an absolute rip-off to me. Not to mention there was strenuous debate about where to place the Sopra. And we all know the Utopia range is class A all day long. 

Borderline...Madonna at her best!😮

This (speaker) pissing contest is juvenile at best. You guys know better. Both are excellent speakers and this notion that a multi-thousand dollar speaker was designed only for home theatre application since it makes real good bass makes no sense.

Is there a Kanta 2 Focal dealer near Michigan?

ozzy

A lot of choices for all kinds of tastes...arguing which are better is illogical!

@twoleftears 

Golden Ears and Definitive Technology were both cofounded by Sandy Gross, and certain ideas have cross cross pollinated, or so to speak.

As for the term "home theater speaker" references used, I do agree its a poor term as it doesn't convey the intent properly. I also don't believe its bass that is being discussed, but instead an eager treble. There is always a difference of opinion in that part as our hearing varies more so in treble response than almost any other in the audible band.

Early GE models had some enthusiasm in the upper registers which meant pairings and setup would be key. The most recent Triton Reference is much better in this regard. An evolution in design they continue to make rather quickly. That is why I do feel that past listening is no longer representative of current offerings and should be revisited.

The thing is that all that "real good bass" is overblown. Overblown bass is what people like in home theater speakers. 

The thing is that all that "real good bass" is overblown. Overblown bass is what people like in home theater speakers.

I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

I’ve found the bass to have the right "weight" to it. IMO, the crossover integration from mid-to-low bass is as good as it gets, or at least as good as I’ve heard. There’s also a DSP processor ahead of the sub amplifier to further refine the bass signal.

Virtually every review I've read of ant GE with active subs has commented on how they require constant fiddling between recordings to sound right. 

Most of my gripes with GE's are opinion and preference. The reason I liked them was that tweeter. The reason I didn't buy them was that tweeter. Kinda had enough of the quirky ribbon tweeter dispersion challenge. They were among the brightest speakers I listened to as well. 

Bottom line is real simple: the towering, enveloping soundstage the Focals projected combined with their transparency and ability to be as aggressive as the material commanded sold me. Golden Ear hadn't sorted that jazz out when I bought my 936's in anything they made. 

We all hear different and that is what makes this hobby so much fun.

Right. And lets not forget that there are those on the forum with supernatural hearing; able to distinguish when an ordinary speaker wires cable direction (not polarity) is switched from speaker to amp and vice versa :)

+1 gdhal

Bass integration will always have room dependency no matter the speaker,  and some setups aren't easily solved. In one scenario it will be set and forget with others being laborious.

The AMT to mid integration which had been an issue on earlier some GE designs has been mostly resolved in the Triton One and + series. Looking at figures from the Reference One. At most there is a small vertical response dip at the extremities, so maybe sitting rather low might have an impact. The upper treble is just a tad bit elevated when listening directly pointed at you, but that is the designed intent and mainly done to compensate for in room response when setting a wider toe in. In room, it can measure well and the dispersion below the upper treble is decently linear and even through wide range. It shouldn't be that hard to dial in the treble. If you like your treble shelved a bit down, it may sound a bit brash with a recordings that are bit hot themselves. I also wouldn't pair this speaker with amps with a forward or lean sounding. Prior models did have some of the same design for the tweeter response (a bit more from what I can read), but the added suck out they had in the mid-treble hand off made getting setup right a tougher job. Not so much with latest stuff. I find the worst offenders are those that have a mid treble flair since our hearing is more sensitive to it than the upper treble. 

From a measured perspective, only have gripes with some low level mid range distortion and some AMT linearity at high volume. Still, these are some very good figures.

Why is it that we can’t just make our choices, enjoy what we have and be happy for each other?  We are a truly troubled species.