How do I power my 800D(3)s

Sell the speakers, give the money to charity and buy a Sonos 3. 
On a more serious note, at this level you should work with a pro. 

@Matt-gf,
There are lots of members here on Audiogon that can give you some very good answers to your questions. The problem is most answers will come from their personal preferences and no one answer is correct or wrong. Just like if you work with three different professionals you will probably get three different answers.

Here are a few options to consider:
Do you prefer the sound of tubes or solid state?
Do you want an integrated amp or separates (amp/preamp)?
If you want separates, do you want one amp or monoblocks?

The speakers you mentioned will work with 50 to 1000 watts and are 90% efficient, so I don't think you can go wrong with any answer you come up with from above.
In addition to what I have mentioned, what type of budget are you working with?

Best regards...

Classe certainly makes fine amps, but as noromance notes, you should have a dealer involved with setting up your speakers and demoing a range of appropriate amps *in your room.*  The one you like the best is the best amp for you.

Given your mention of a streamer, I encourage you to seek out the best possible source material and source components.  That's another job your dealer should help with.   

Congrats on your purchases; enjoy!

As others have noted the dealer you purchase the 800s from should help you find the appropriate amplification for the speakers and your room and offer in-home demos. I wouldn't buy a speaker in that class from a dealer that wouldn't accommodate you in every reasonable way.

Personally, I would go with a pre/amp combination with at least 200 watts for the 800s. I love power and I have never heard a speaker that didn't sound better the more high quality watts that were sent to them.

You will enjoy the buying experience and the speakers more when you deal with a good dealer. Good luck and have fun. You are getting an outstanding speaker.

Cheers,

Scott

B&W and Classe have a corporate connection of some sort, which is why they are so often shown together.  Classe is good, but there may be better options.

I would look at Bryston, 20 year warranty on amps and preamps. 

What a great position to be in, the new B&W are a formidable speaker.

The real question is why are you posting this question? Didn't the speakers come from a dealer? Are you seeking advice because you are not sure which brand or combination of components? Or are you seeking different choices from what the dealer was recommending.

It comes down to taste, and price. There are many good combinations which will work well, a famous pairing is the Electrocompaniet Nemo amplifiers or the smaller AW 400 which are very musical and were voiced with the 800's.

The issue with the B&W is the Diamond tweeter is very ruthless at revealing flaws, you are best with a slightly warmer amplifier, choice of dac and cables is also crucial.

I work part time for Audio Doctor in NJ, the owner Dave has 27 years experience in system matching, give him a call 877 428 2873

Congrats.  First, invest in room acoustics. GIK Acoustics has great advice and products.

Next, tubes man. These are definitely speakers I'd pair with Tubes a-la AR, CJ or if SS, Ayre.

Matt, I have never owned 800D3s but have owned 803Ds. For me the B&W's sounded best with lots of power behind them. The more power I gave them the better they sounded and I don't listen at loud levels. For example, I had them paired with one McIntosh MC352 and then vertically bi-amped with 2 MC352s and then with MC601 mono blocks. For me a tube amp just doesn't have enough power to really let the 800's sound the best they can. I also believe in room treatments, vibration control and better cabling. Just my 2 cents.

Krell with Transparent Cable would be something to look into.

B&W 800 series are often paired with McIntosh, Classe, Rowland, Levinson. Generally people like lots of power behind them.

Having said that, I own 804S (different league from yours) driven by McIntosh tubes. I prefer it to a larger McIntosh solid state amp. And I've heard a system with 802D driven by large $30k tube monblocks that sounded outstanding - plus you save on heating the house 😁

B&W can be auditioned rather easily. At that level of money, spend some visiting stores and understanding what you like. And enjoy the journey!

Cheers

I have the 802D3 and have heard the 800D3 several times.

I have them in my listening room and I have the room treated with GIK acoustics.

I am very familiar with the speakers and would probably be better off talkign to you on the phone or via email. I will send you a PM.

I have tried 5 amplfiers with them, 4 of them in my room. In my room, I have tried Classe CAM600, Rotel RB1590, Cary 211 FE tube monoblocks, and Boulder 2060 stereo amp. At the dealer I have heard them on MAC 601.

I have tweaked them and they sound fantastic. They are very transparent to the source and to changes upstreams including cabling and speaker wire.

The best set up so far that I have been able to get has been mine:

Emm Labs DAC2x with TSDX transport via EMM Link -> Cary SLP05 (tube preamp) -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp -> Audioquest WEL Signature Speaker wire -> BW 802D3.

I still have complete my loom of wires. Also will need power cords and will need to control the room better with regards to the ceiling as the D3 are baffleless speakers and interact with the sides and ceilings more than typical box speakers which means your imaging is compromised.

I have heard them sound like crap. I have heard them sound spectacular.  My system sounds just spectacular.  I have nearly no complaints.  OTher than I'm moving to the 800D3. 

Constellation Inspiration Series. All the power you need with a beautiful signature sound. Email me for an in-depth discussion at mmporsche@mac.com

Congrats on your purchase!

As suggested, have your dealer pair 800's with couple of amps and let your ears decide the best amps.  

I currently own 800D2's and agree with 'mcgal'. 800's sound best with a decent power amp. I highly recommend mono-blocks with at least 300W in class A/B. 

i am running a pair of Modwright KWA-150SE in bridge mode (450W). Personally, I found Classe M600 bit lean on the bottom end.  

My front end consist of Aurender N10 and Aesthetix Pandora 'Eclipse' DAC w/volume control. 

Good luck! 

@joey_v 

Since this could help the op and I'm very interested I'll ask; how did the 350 watts of the Rotel RB1590 fare with your 802 D3s? Thanks.

Cheers,

Scott

I 2nd the McIntosh preamp/amp combo....you will not be disappointed!

Make sure on the amp you buy though, it needs to be one of the double balanced (MC352 or better) find a used one if you can, (this is an older model that is lower powered 350wx2 MAC dosent make this anymore, too bad because its one of the best sounding amps they ever designed (solid state) the MC402 400wx2 either ). Now Mac is making all high powered 500w 600w + monos very expensive new quad balanced designs. Find a used Tube based pre amp like the C2200 would be a great match. B&W’s are wonderful sounding speakers IF you give them the electronics they deserve.

Matt M                                     Call Mike Sastra @ Audioclassics.com

I own a pair of 800D and these speakers like quality power. They are faily efficient but have a tougher load. I am running a 300 watt Edge pre/power and have heard them with 600w classes mono. Look for quality first. Great purchase.

OP:  Re: high powered, refined amp. You might want to check out the PBN Audio Olympia EBSA2.

@samac 

The Rotel RB1590 sounded warm with the 802D3, I had it in my room at the SAME time as 3 other amps (Cary 211fe, Classe CAM600 monoblocks, and Boulder).  

It was not shamed by the rest of the gear other than the Boulder.  

It sounded very acceptable and it was very good for the $2999 that it is.  

The soundstage seemed cramped and narrow.  There was less dynamics.  

But I could live with it. 

I a/b'd the Classe M600 against the MAC 601 at the store, I brought my amps there and plunked it on top of the 601... we listened to the 802D3.  I came away liking the 601 more.  It was warmer but still had the impact of the Classe M600. 

The Boulder smokes them all.  

Funny how the Classe M600 was used to tune the speakers, but clearly not the best with these other super amps in the picture.  

Cary 211FE is a little weak with bass.... but there is an etherealness to the vocals that is just superb. 

So though I sold my 211FE to my brother, I am looking to bring back some Cary tubes (805AE) monoblocks to my system just for vocalists. 

@joey_v 

Thanks for your impressions of the Rotel RB1590/802D3. The RB1590 sounds like a very good amp.

Your impressions of the Classe M600 is interesting as well. I've heard them on the 803D2 and 802D3. I really want to love Classe gear but can't warm up to it.

Cheers,

Scott

Pass X350.8/XP-20 and McIntosh MC601/C2500. Heard them both with 800D2s, large living room with 20' ceilings. Really wanted to love the Pass combo but for whatever reason the McIntosh just sounded so much smoother and more liquid on Jazz/Blues and classical material. The Pass combo sounded incredible for 80's rock material like Pink Floyd, etc. Awesome kick in the gutt bass at moderately high volumes. Excellent speakers nonetheless.

Love the McIntosh tubes with B & W. Very synergistic. A pair of 2301s sound fabulous. If not, then Mac solid state.

I would hope that you listened to other speakers in this price range...Vandersteen, Maggies, etc.

+1 Bryston. The 4B SST2 should handle it with aplomb.

Folks

Wow, thanks for getting back to me so quickly.  I agree I need to go into the dealer to test several of the amps you have suggested.  I wanted some input before I ventured back into the dealer, so that I have a broad perspective.  I was afraid that the dealer would steer me in the direction of most 'margin' for them.

It is really challenging finding good content/advice from the audio mags and sites, so this has been a really valuable exercise.  Thanks to all of you.

I will spend some time in the dealer/s later this week and then come back with further questions (I am sure).

What about Linn?  Has anybody had any experience with these amps and pre-amps?  

Matt

I think most people think B&W speakers tend to be a tad bright as compared to very neutral speakers. So the choice of preamp/amp/cable, etc., and room treatment needs to take that into account. Lots of great choices in that (or even lower) price range.

@kalali

B&W use a large mid range which beams and leaves an off access suckout from 1 to 4 KHz - so actually a recessed upper mid. They crossover around 4 KHz to the tweeter giving a sudden but correct boost to the off axis presence region. This is fairly consistent characteristic for B&W and gives them a brighter treble in relation to the mids. The bass also feels relatively stronger due to the recessed mids. These effects are more apparent the further you sit from the speakers and the more the off axis contributes to the overall sound at the listener.

Strictly speaking this is a design limitation but it has proved so succesful and core to B&W sound that it is certainly a deliberate design choice, as B&W for sure are one of the top speakers.

Rotel is not the quality you should pair with the 800. Pass labs a much better choice. These new models are world class and will be very revealing of source, power etc. High current, clean power is the best option. If you prefer to stick to an integrated some nice choices (with power) from Jeff Rowland,  Mark levinson. Good hunting.

I agree that the following amps would sound good with the B&W 800D(3)s in no particular order:
Bryston
Classe
Pass Lab
The B&W dealier in my area uses McIntosh, but that might be because thats what they carry.
I would also add ti the list Plinius Reference amp.

This post has a great list of amps that should sound good with Bowers and Wilkins Diamond Series, here's a few more:

Parasound
NAD
Rotel
Krell
Arcam
Cambridge
Naim
Plinius
Peachtree
Nuprime
Wyred
Bel Canto


...... and many, many more. Choose your budget, pick the sound you like, give them the appropriate power and enjoy.

Cheers,

Scott

Those are GOOD speakers and need GOOD amps.. Spectral, Atmasphere, Jeff Rowland, will all make them sing.  

Each single loudspeaker has a level of potential and owns properties. I owned the 800S and when I auditioned the 800D1 I knew I would stop with B&W.

We auditioned the 800D3 a few months ago with a 245.000 euro costing system driving the 800D3 series ( Esoteric monos, pre and source and Audiquest Well Signature cables)

3 weeks ago we auditioned the 800D3 again, now it was connected with Mcintosh 1.2KW monos, C2600 and streamer. And also Audioquest cables and Niagara 5000 conditioner.

All the 2 sets with the 800D3 had one important thing in common. The stage depth was less than 1 metre. Also the 800D1 and 800S were able to create only 1 metre of stage depth.

B&W always have been very limited in crossovers and they still are very poor in this part. When you want to speak of ’real’ highend audio you need a very deep and holographic 3D stage.

This is what ’real’ highend makes special compared to hifi. In real the properties of the 800D3 are hifi stereo parameters. This has nothing to do with personal taste. It is a property you can easily hear and understand.

Based on the fact that there are no parameters in the world of highend, we can call everything we want ’highend’

The people who buy the 800D3 think they buy ’highend’ but based on facts they buy a hifi stereo stage. This is a fact no one can change.

It doesn’t matter which amp you connect, the stage depth will still be very limited.

I have done thousands of tests in audio in over 18 years of time. Even when you connect a Pass labs, Krell, Mcintosh etc, the stage depth will be rather small compared to other speakers which can create a stunning deep and 3 dimensional stage with the same amps we are talking about.

The person who does Esoteric in my country did the demo with the Esoteric monos, pre and source togheter with B&W. They did this presentation togheter.

When they played; Miles Davis ’So What’ I went to the speakers during this song and I showed the person of Esoteric that the high hats of the recording are stucked to the loudspeaker and that the height of the high hats stops were the tweeter stops.

I also told him during the song that Miles Davis stands at the same line as the drumms and Coltrane on the left side.

I invited him to come to listen to my system with the new Monitor Audio Pl-500 about 1 month ago. I used the same songs as we auditioned during the show with the 800D3.

Now the drumms on the right side plays fully free and in front of the loudspeaker. The high hats are played at about 1.4 metres. Miles stands a lot deeper behind in the middle. You can see on the pictures of the recording that he stands behind the drumms. Also Coltrane has now a 3 dimensional shape.

Also the diversity (layering) in the whole frequency range is superior in my system. I have done a lot of research this year in diversity in sound. This is the most important part to create emotion for us humans. That is why I decided to do research in this part. We missed a lot of details on the low, mid and high freqencies with the 800D3.In all the 2 sets the level of diversity was rather low.

The blacklevel and physical image of instruments and voices is much more life like with the Pl-500. It is able to let you hear all the diversity in heights of instruments and voices. I call this part highend ++. This is a quality the 800D3 does not own.  During the demos we all could hear that the instruments and voices were played at the same height.

Also the level of resolution and the reverb of the recording is superior in my system. This is how ’highend’ should be played.

The Monitor Audio Pl-500 outperforms the B&W 80D3 in all parts you judge sound for. I also sold a pair to a person with the 800D1.

It doesn’t matter what you connect to the 800D3, the stage will stay at hifi stereo level. All the demos proved it. Even the person of Esoteric agreed that it was a hifi stereo demo.

And that my system is of a totally differerent and superior level. Audio needs parameters soon. This way people can get honest and true information about the real quality and properties.

These are facts, we are not talking about preferences. I never met a person with an expensive audio system who would like to have a less deep and wide stage.

Focus on the facts. There are many things which can be compared. 

What do you want to hear: the truth or the things you would like to hear?

Audio needs to become a lot more open and honest. The bullshot stories need to stop. Or you want still want to feed them?

You have no idea how many people who spend a lot of money in audio are not happy with their system. You can spend a lot of money on the 800D3 speakers. But in real the stage will be still at a hifi stereo level.

When you spend these kinds of money you should deserve a 3 dimensional holographic stage with a physical image of voices and instruments to die for.

The focus in audio needs to be more on a level in quality instead of products and brands. Quality you find in the right properties. You will not find them in just buying brands and products. Audio does not work like that. It is a 100% fact that trial and error in audio does not work that well.

I had this discussion with many people who work in audio for a long time and also with people who spend a lot of money on audio. They all agreed that it cost a lot of money for a level what is not equal to the money they often spend.

Any suitably well engineered product when setup correctly can sound fantastic. 

The setup and synergy of the system is what needs to be looked at.

The B&W are very fine speakers, and this gentleman needs some good advice.

The store I work at, we are blown away by the T+A electronics from Germany this stuff is unbelievable, I would urge you to find a place to hear the new HV series of electronics, this stuff is remarkable.

Whenever Bo posts, I just scroll right through.  He is delusional as I have the 802d3 and hear none of the junk he spouts.  I have no issues with staging or whatever else he claims is 3D audio.

theres more to audio than just staging too... There's tone, accuracy, and dynamics... None of which the 802d3 and 800d3 lack.

You want the Truth?

I dare B&W to do a shootout between their 800D3 and the Monitor Audio Pl-500?

We will make a review of it. I can garantee you that this will not happen. B&W does not want people to know that their stage is a lot less deep and wide.

What is audio?....as it should be

Audio is all about shootout and what the real properties are. Customers will get a higher level of quality when audio becomes more open and honest.

Welcome! Matt-

very nice speakers to compliment your new home.  There are many wise people here offering advice. I concur w/ the panel and working w/ your local dealer/retailer is sound.  Keep us posted on your progress and take your time selecting the gear, including cabling, for the B&W speakers.

PLease give a shout -out w/ dealers and retailers in correspondence on this project.  Happy Listening!

matt_gf
How do I power my B&W 800D(3)s

You will need an amp the can deliver good current down to 2ohms with this sort of impedance and -phase angle in the lower regions. Think big Krell type amps with bi-polar (BJT) output stages, not mosfet or tube.

http://www.stereophile.com/images/616BW802fig1.jpg

Cheers George

It doesn’t matter what you connect to the 800D3, the stage will never become a deep and wide stage. I owned the best B&W loudspeakers and I know people who owned and own them.

We test each single part on properties, these properties you cannot change. It is the DNA of a brand or product.

In 2002 I auditioned a jazz concert. This was the first time that I ever audtioned a concert with a stunning level of stage depth, individual focus of instruments and voices. And also the diversity in height. And I thought; this is how an audio system should sound.

That time I owned the B&W 802N, which I replaced in 2005 by the 800S. I still had only one meter of stage depth. This started to irritate me more and more. I had the hope that the B&W 800D1 would solve this problem.

But when I audtioned them, it was still 1 metre of stage depth. That was the reason why I stopped with B&W after more than 8 years listening to their speakers.

Audio is a also a progress in knowledge and insight. I had the options to test and compare so many stuff in over 18 years of time. It is my living, but I never saw it as work. This is the thing I love most. I can compare and test all the time. In my world only the best counts, 2nd and 3th best does not add anything in my world.

3-dimensional audio has become my trademark. And the response you get from people is of a totally different level than the time I also sold 2 dimensional audio.

It has changed my perspective in audio and music a lot. It made music and audio so much more addictive than I ever had with any 2 dimensional system.

Since 2009 I only sell audio loudspeakers and components which can create a deep and wide stage. I will never go back to sell any kind of 2 dimensonal audio. That would be the time to look for another job.

The people who own a 3 dimensional system use their system so much more than they used a system in the past. This is how big the influences are when you go from 2D to 3D.

Even when you play a song wit only 1 singer and an acoustic guitar. And you compare it between a 2 dimensional system and a 3 dimensional system. The song has a totally different effect on your emotion.

When you play an acoustic song with a 3 dimensional system the singer becomes so much more intimate and tangible. The space around singers and instruments has a big influence on our emotion.

The problem is that most people have no reference frame in how music and instruments sounds in real. That is why we have ideas to use real instruments and voices to show people how small and direct they sound in real. Intimate sound is a part of our Tru-Fi what we use and want voices and instruments to sound like.

George is right that the 800D3 needs power and current to be controled and create a realistic low frequency.

Yawn more trufi speech by Bo.

I tell you Matt (op), you have great speakers, audition amps and buy what you like.  

I had a client with 800D1, he owned Mark Levinson H33. It sounded dull. So I adviced him Pass Labs X600.5. They are a great match.

The Pass labs Labs X600.5 can build a very deep and wide stage. But with the DNA of the B&W the stage was still not that deep. This is a part no one can change.

B&W need new developers who are able to create better crossovers and drivers with a faster response. This is what you need to create a bigger and holographic huge stage. This will always be an essential part of highend.

I know many people with an expensive audio system who don’t take a 2 dimensional system serious either. For them as for me this has nothing to do with ’real’ highend.

@joey_v 

Based on these posts, bo1972 deserves a lifelong membership of B&W haters club :-)
 

@lalitk I agree haha

im not going to give bo any more time that he needs.  I've encountered him way too many times on audiogon and he says the same thing.  Every thread he tries to derail even though it's not about the speakers that the OP is asking about... He is asking about amplification but Bo takes it upon himself to teach us about his trufi garbage.

FYI I've had Sonus Faber Stradivari and Rockport Aviors in my room and the BW  802d3 for me are better for my listening preferences and my biases.

Are they for everyone?  No there is no such thing.

But unlike Bo, I don't presume to tell everyone what to listen to because I have insight.  I'm not blind like Bo.

Not everyone is Bo.

Thanks again for the continual feedback.  Some more useful than others :)

I hear that there could be new Classe Kit on the market in March/April so I need to bare this in mind.

I have planned some dealer visits over the weekend with a friend and somebody who I believe will help me to debate the pros/cons.

I agree with the main summary that I should base the choice on my own listening preferences.  After all, you guys have no idea how well calibrated my ears are!

Thanks again.

Matt

P.S.  I have learned through this process, that most of the brands could do with a serious design/aesthetic overhaul.  I would say that I am an Industrial Designer :)

People are not able to look further, that is a fact as well.

For the money the 800D3 costs you should get a huge holographic 3D stage with all the layers in the frequencies. And it needs to be able to show you diversity in height of the instruments and voices.

But it is a fact that the 800D3 cannot create it. I am even prepared to demo it.

Who is prepared for a shootout? Who can let us hear a huge 3D stage with the 800D3? Who can let us demo that high hats are played free and high in the air?

Many people prefer to hear what they want to hear. This way they limit themselves.

Audio is not about a brand, it is all about the best quality you can get. At this moment B&W is by far not the best brand in quality. But when they will get new and better people the next generation can be a lot better.

What I said earlier; I don’t bash B&W, I don’t have anything against it. I want people to get the highest level in quality possible.

What is wrong with that?

I sold Classe for over 6 years of time. Classe is like a good meal. It tast well and there is nothing wrong with it. But when you want something extra or even more tasty Classe is not the best you can get.

Audio is all about those products which are the best in it’s class and brings all the emotion out of the music.