Kindness can be contagious. Just sayin....🙂
Please Read and express your feelings and opinions....
I noticed that lately or maybe for the last five yrs, there is so much arguments,name calling, attacking cables , speakers , components makers and more, more of disagreement with members, even Audio dealers are being attack here...Very few know how to apologize when they are wrong.What can we do as Audiogon members to improve our communication to each other? How to give the informations, recommendation to members who need it? This is without involving Audiogon, any opinion or ideas , For me this is fun and place to learn in audio...thank you all
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Regarding the debate about the relation between SPL and speaker input power, I found the following sub-page at the site which provided the calculators that were referred to earlier: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm Entering various parameters into either of the two calculators closest to the bottom of that page (one entitled "Sound Pressure Level and Amplifier Power" and the other in the section entitled "Electro-Acoustic Sensitivity") clearly confirms what Atmasphere, Erik_Squires and I have all said on this subject. Namely that if the input power to a speaker is changed by a given number of db, SPL at a given listening distance will change by the same number of db. (As previously stated, this of course assumes that the speaker is not being driven hard enough to cause thermal compression in the drivers to become significant). I also found the following writeup at PSB’s site, which provides additional confirmation. About 2/3 of the way down the page a table is provided showing power vs. volume for an unnamed 87 db speaker used as an example. Note that 40 watts results in a volume of 103 db, while a 6 db reduction in that power level (to 10 watts) results in a volume that is 6 db less (97 db). While a 3 db change in power, from 1 watt to 2 watts, changes the volume by 3 db, from 87 db to 90 db. And a 20 db change in power, from 1 watt to 100 watts, changes the volume by 20 db, from 87 db to 107 db. http://www.psbspeakers.com/articles/Guide-to-Speaker-Specifications On another note, Erik, thanks for injecting some sorely needed humor into this thread, with the donuts post :-) Regards, -- Al |
@fleschler I think negative feedback is one of those very misunderstood things. Not to say that I understand it. For my purposes, it's a good thing. The F5 I built uses a generous amount of it, and yes, it does complicate the distortion spectrum, but the artifacts are down below -120dB. That seems like a good trade off for lowering the overall distortion a good bit for the power I'm demanding of that thing. On top of that, the amp is completely stable into loads well below what any normal speaker will exhibit. I always keep an eye out for amp descriptions that suggest "no feedback", "no loop feedback", or "no global feedback". I assume that if they're qualifying the type of feedback, then they're using some kind of negative feedback such as degeneration. |
Like a few of us or the many of us who buy/sell/trade here on A’gon I have endeavored since my start on the site to maintain a degree of civility in the forums I participate in not only because most of them manage to be civil anyway, but also to complement my feedback score. I find that such goes pretty much hand in hand. When arguments/dialogues/exchanges here become less than civil it can become tiresome to say the least. However I have witnessed some incredibly funny, witty, and intelligent back and forths between and amongst members that are highly entertaining for me - and very possibly for them too. Are many audiophiles too serious? Indeedily. Personally, I’m an “audiot”, I don’t know a mosfet from a misfit but I have learned, and occasionally retained, some of the information I’ve read and received here, and all for the betterment of my enjoyment. When a forum becomes a contest with name calling and insults I simply scroll past them or abandon it for awhile. I don’t believe censoring posts that I may find offensive will correct such behavior. Free speech is free, intelligent speech costs none the more, it all depends what’s in yer moral wallet to begin with. |
I very rarely or if ever have posted here. But I have seen it also. The anonymity on the internet sometimes brings out the worst in us. We can say things and do things that we might now otherwise do or say if we were all in the same room. What is a wonder to me is are we not all here for almost the same reason. We have more in common than not when it comes to audio. We like music, we like good audio. Many times it's not that we express our opinion it is how we express our opinion. I tell my kids. "It's not what you said. It is how you said it.". We really all don't know each other, so it is hard to read audiogon posts where people assume other audiogon members are lying or not telling the truth. I can't remember in my life when arguing ended up with a good result. A good discussion yes, but arguing brings up bad feelings. Well that is my rant. |
@almarg Namely that if the input power to a speaker is changed by a given number of db, SPL at a given listening distance will change by the same number of db It’s frankly hard to tell what cj was talking about, but I think what his problem was he couldn’t wrap his head around the delta dB being the same across V, W and SPL and that this was expressed in the separate coefficients (20 vs. 10) used in the dB formula. In the same way you can have different power calculations, and each be correct: P = V x A P = ( V x V ) / R Honestly, if these formulas weren’t equivalent, I’m not sure amplifiers could work! This tight interrelationship just blew cj's mind. On another note, Erik, thanks for injecting some sorely needed humor into this thread, with the donuts post :-) Haha! I thought everyone missed that. Best, E |
The trick, to me (given that I am somewhat challenged in the math/physics/hard sciences department), is to translate the science into something that is readily understandable by those untutored in the relevant fields. I know that can lead to oversimplification but my experience working with witnesses as a lawyer is that the judge (and jury) needs to understand it. I think there is a certain mix of science or tech blended with communication skills that makes a big difference in how the message gets delivered and received. One can have a healthy argument without personalizing or belittling. There is also a fair amount of psychoacoustic stuff going on in audio, beyond the gear and its technical performance. That can be "tested" too, I suppose, but to me, there is an art to applying the science in a way that delivers the goods: one example- I like Vlad Lamm's SET amplifier. Its sonics had to do with some deliberate choices Vlad made beyond the specs. Is it magic? No. I think a lot of us have gaps in our knowledge and are open to learning. I know I am. I welcome information and healthy debate. Knocking heads doesn't help anybody, least of all contributors who probably have other, better things to do with their time. |
whart The trick, to me (given that I am somewhat challenged in the math/physics/hard sciences department), is to translate the science into something that is readily understandable by those untutored in the relevant fields. I know that can lead to oversimplification but my experience working with witnesses as a lawyer is that the judge (and jury) needs to understand it. >>>>I think you just put your finger on it. According to what I’ve been seeing on audio forums for nigh on twenty five years there’s a huge communication barrier between science minded individuals and the rest the general population, including English majors, Econ. Majors, History majors, what have you. It just doesn’t compute. Even drawing a picture doesn’t work. That’s what Richard Feynman tried to do, somewhat unsuccessfully. Does that seem too harsh? |
@geoffkait This problem is so acute that in some fields they have a sub specialty. Translational medicine for instance aims to bridge the gap between patient treating doctors and medical researchers. Improving how information flows from one to another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translational_medicine In my day job about half of what I do is this, translating between software developers, reliability engineers and business people so that the teams are fully engaged and unblocked. The rest of the time I'm just a jerk. Best, E |
Geoff- Making the complex simple is an art. I don’t think the problem is confined to the hard sciences. My technical knowledge is spotty, and mostly learned from experience, though I’ve certainly read a fair share, and when the need arises, I ask questions. Most people seem to be pretty gracious in sharing their knowledge unless there is something proprietary involved. (I’m now speaking as a hobbyist, not a lawyer-- I’m retired anyway, but I teach at the university level and it is a challenge to impart knowledge even to smart, ambitious students). The other thing about audio, and here I’ll probably enter into the ’no go’ zone is that the end result of what i’m listening to is more than a bunch of equations or formulae. I’ve got to take into account room acoustics, gear set up, the source material (which is a huge variable in my experience). When it all works, it is akin to magic, even if there are scientific explanations for what I’m experiencing. I live for those moments of musical transcendence. The gear is just the machinery to get there. |
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I have to agree with the original post, standards of courtesy do seem to be dropping. I try to post my opinions and make clear they are opinions, not facts and then try to accept other peoples opinions. I have'nt experienced much vitriol. only once I can recall clearly. I expressed that I was'nt that impressed by Magico Speakers after a prolonged listen at a show. The gist of the reply was I could'nt give an opinion unless I had experienced them for some time, weeks certainly, in my own home. It plainly is'nt possible to audition everything in your own home, especially a product you can not afford and have no intention of buying. That is simply unfair on the dealer. I thought the response was just plain stupid, but did'nt say so and was not mortified. We should just expect opinions and advice is given in good faith. Now I know there are trolls around, people pushing an agenda for commercial reasons. Unless that is clear, I just accept peoples posts are in good faith.. Please don't assume all members are from the US of A, I'm from the UK. We have the same problem here.On the PinkFish site, make a favourable comment on the benefits of cables and you are likely to find men in pointy hats and a burning cross on your front lawn next day. |
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@whart. PLUS 1. @david12 , Not all of the trolls here are pushing an agenda for commercial reasons. The worst, for me, are the trolls who argue what our ears tell us, such as differences in power cords, as an example, and brought up again very recently on a fairly new thread. They say we are imagining it, hallucinating, off our rockers. And, they keep coming back, again and again and again. There are other types, too, such as those that bash one product design vs. another ( in my case, horn loaded speakers ). I have never jumped on a thread and bashed anything. I have been here on the Gon for 10 years, and this has gotten worse. I find them annoying, but most of all, I have no respect for them, because this is a forum about " listening to music ", and they rely only on science, and / or on " their " godly beliefs.. How I see it, anyway. I just laugh most of the time at these ignorant, close minded, earless people. Enjoy ! MrD. |
David12 when I wrote the thread my feelings is that audio is a good hobby , second is I do respect everyone who are Agon members, third I know most of us are capable to give courtesy and respect each other, I agree my thread is just to remind members we are all cool here, it can get better, so far it did it’s porpuse..So enjoy agoners... |
