Please Read and express your feelings and opinions....
I noticed that lately or maybe for the last five yrs, there is so much arguments,name calling, attacking cables , speakers , components makers and more, more of disagreement with members, even Audio dealers are being attack here...Very few know how to apologize when they are wrong.What can we do as Audiogon members to improve our communication to each other? How to give the informations, recommendation to members who need it? This is without involving Audiogon, any opinion or ideas , For me this is fun and place to learn in audio...thank you all
Any members participating in a thread - REGARDLESS OF WHAT SIDE THEY COME DOWN ON IN ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE - should call out or warn when another member veers from focusing on subject matter to focusing on perceived faults or failures of other forum members. It doesn't mean all discussions have to be "neutered" or that all passion has to be dispensed with. And it doesn't mean we can't say things like - "No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong" - AS LONG AS WE FOLLOW SUCH STATEMENTS IMMEDIATELY WITH - "and here's why...."
I've participated in a variety of forums as most here likely have ranging over a variety of disparate subjects - fishing, remote controlled aircraft, flying, boat building, audio, automotive repairs....yada yada yada. In every single one - WITHOUT EXCEPTION - moderators implore participants to focus on dissecting the subject matter - not fellow forum members. If people can help each other do that, it is still possible to maintain respect for one another, maintain a civil dialog, yet be able to passionately express our views, experiences, and convictions. A civil forum doesn't have to be a "dead space" like an elevator with elevator music playing in the background.
I wouldn’t worry about it, it’s just male egos butting horns most of the time. If someone gets too bent over something I say, I just point them to my forum or website.
For example: I obviously disagree with cj outlook as far as thread development. On my forum I tend to let the threads develop on their own steam and momentum. With audio because you have an entire audio chain that starts with the recording and all the way to the listener’s ears and perception, chopping it up into too many bite size nuggets it kind of feels like someone is trying to say the arm doesn’t exist because I want to focus only on a finger. You can easily focus on the finger while referencing and even including the whole body. At the same time I don’t think cj’s view is a bad one, it’s just different from mine.
Now if someone gets heated or disrespectful, that’s another story. It's a very enjoyable hobby and it's weird to me when I see people getting upset or causing a deliberate disturbance in the force (if I can steal that phrase).
Audiogon forums are full of dealers manufacturers suggesting there products or fan boys commenting on a new favorite product we also have the highly biased and inexperienced giving advice out. And those who do capacitor swaps of the day without every really comparing results without measuring results just the old I did this mod and its the best ever. You will see many post about whats the best or the old all this is that. And my favorite that those using any vintage are fools and they should burn it and buy the latest English designed Chinese bookshelf's to be considered audiophile and of coarse the copper you use to wire it all up needs to be extremely costly or its not considered audiophile.
There was a thread started here a while ago, I think it was " what about horns ", and the fun began. I jumped in, talking about why dynamics of a sound system is high on my priority list, and another came on and made the statement " I loathe horns ". I have to admit, I was seduced into the bantering that was about to take place. Turns out I owned the same speakers as this individual, with a superior ss amp that he owned ( imo ), and know first hand that dynamics was not a virtue of his system ( I admitted to other virtues he was enjoying ). It was boys against boys, looking for our manhood. Although us horn lovers felt he, and a few others, were trolls, the posting was an invite for everyone. The point of all this : bring it on........it is all part of our journey.
I like to believe that courtesy begets courtesy. That's why I let other drivers move in front of me when merging and stuff like that. It's my contribution to the common good.
I too have found that we as a group seem more intolerant now than 10 years ago. What truly irks me is the Tekton fanboys. There are at least 4 different threads going on about Tekton and it's all the same BS. I don't read them any longer.
I too have noticed less tolerance for different opinions now than say 10 years ago. The change in tone coupled with the same subjects being beaten to death week after week makes me less interested in checking the Agon forums these days. I still glance at them every week or two but I don’t follow the threads like I used to.
@cj1965, I have a Mac and I just click and drag to highlight the word or section desired and right click to get down to "fonts" and chose italics. For some reason, bold and underline doesn't work for me even though it's an option so I'm content to just use italics.
The unfortunate vitriol we experience here is a reflection of the ever increasing polarization of our society. Sadly, in America, we've decided to wear team jerseys and we want to win. The SR blue fuse thread is a great example of this. One jersey represents the "high quality fuse make an audible difference" and the other jersey is, of course battling for the opposing view.
No politics in this. It's a cultural battle in the nation. As in most civil wars, everyone seems to lose in the end.
So what to do? The only thing I can see that might get us to shed those jerseys and just be Americans again is a big nation-threatening event that would force us to come together for our survival.
The lessons of 9/11 are too far in the rear view mirror.
I get a chuckle when I know people are talking about me without using my name.
I don't really consider these forums places of thought and learning because facts tend not to get in the way of opinions. I think if you're really interested in learning, there's better venues. There's a lot of snake oil given credit and a lot of opinions stated as incontravertable fact. Take that horn thread mentioned above. The OP asks why horns are so contraversial, then the crowd attacks anybody who gives a valid reason. And of course they're deathly serious and passionate as if any expressed dissention might sway somebody from their audio religion. It cracks me up. People are too serious here.
@kosst_amojan Agreed. Most A'Goners are too serious. People, generally are too intense and seem to lose track of the notion that enjoying life and sharing in the joys of others can be rewarding. The social scientist in me sees what you are referencing on A'Gon as a microcosm of society as a whole. We all (myself included!) need to chill out!
A week ago I end up reading old post ten yrs ago, by Bobundus , and some old timer here , I was amaze, by their kind and simple post.I was trying to find a review of old cables that time, when I came across their post, i end up reading Bombaywala....and TVad ....as well...why I got the thought to put this thread..I agree iam guilty as well as Tekton fan boy , sorry to all, yes too many thread on Tekton...
Yes I agree sometimes us here take these threads way too seriously,but in retrospect I personally have learned a lot over the yrs from a semi-heated thread where other things are discussed.
Even though I’m definitely not one of Audiogon’s oldest members,I’ve pretty much read since they were started,and joined later on.
I don’t mind a little heat myself but I’m not very crazy about any kind of personal attack in any situation,totally uncalled for.
I experienced this recently myself from a experienced Audiogon member who also is a reviewer and even when I brought it to his attention he just keep up his condescending personal attack’s.
I see a lot of this kind of reaction from the gut knee jerking usually stems from people not reading and or understanding other people’s posts completely.
I greatly respect these threads because people myself included are making our purchasing decisions from what we learn here.
Anyhow I’m a pretty thick skinned and I will continue to read and post and make these threads enjoyable and continue to learn and share as much as possible.
At the end of the day we're talking about stereos what really is there to get worked up about? The world can be a pretty grim place at times this is fun and fun only to me.
As someone who's been on this forum since it began almost 20 years ago, I've noticed a lot of the recent conversation to have degraded significantly. Call out whatever thread you will as an example, it's valid.
What I'm struggling with personally is living my entire life a staunch defender of free speech and the exchange of ideas even to the point of argument now in conflict with the same folks (and they are on BOTH sides of the fence) showing up again and again and again and again to truly ruin this environment for everyone while adding almost nothing to the discussions
This thread will benefit all of us to remind how far we became too comfortable with each other expressing our experience on cables, dacs, amps, preamps, tweaks and more, I still believe there are many good members in this site, Some of the members here, I met them personally, like Doug Schroeder extremely nice person, tommorow I will meet Bube (Vinh) at Axpona, I agree at the end of the day it’s just stereo, My experience , members here are much nicer in person, let’s just continue to enjoy this site and respect each other, Gdhal, Trelja, thank you, this thread is for. All of us to remind ourself , How old timer did respect each other here, and they were able to communicate their audio experience with us.
Go to any forum; football ,firearms, Harleys.....basically all the same. People argue, some more adamantly than others. You will always find the know it all, the cliques and the noobies. I think it is just the nature of the beast.
Sports and political forums might be the worst offenders in this regard. I've mostly thought of Audiogon as one of the more civil. I try to behave well on this site but I know I have lost it from time to time. Threads like this should help IMO.
Arrogance in whatever clothing it comes in, is truly unattractive, at times vulgar. I find that many people take offense when someone else, say Elmer, states an opinion that the equipment ABC is not great. Many of these ABC equipment fans will take it personally. They will attack Elmer. I don’t understand that but when it happens it often starts a mob mentality where other ABC equipment fans will join in on the attack on Elmer. That fire gets hotter when you combine the unfortunate coincidence that these forums are more about “selling gear” and less about sharing good and bad experiences with gear. In that stricter sense, it is not a forum for exchanging opinions or ideas unless they are positive ones. Despite all the technical tests, highly analytical equipment and tech geeks, it boils down to subjective likes and dislikes. When one looks at the forum discussion this way, no one person is right or wrong.
On the spectrum of snark and hostility, I think A-gon is somewhere in the middle; I’ve certainly been on sites- not restricted to audio- with far more personal bloodletting, condoned by the site admins, and others that are much more heavily moderated. Despite it all, whatever your perception or the reasons for it, there are some very generous contributors here who go out of their way to help, freely share information with no agenda and make this a place I still visit. The forum (in the ancient Greek or Roman sense) is a noisy, hectic place.
Also read the earlier thread "Missing the Forest for the Trees". Same element and sentiments.
We can all be civil, however this forum (AudioGon) is also where we discuss meaningful agendas like MQA (done to death but still alive). This one has the possibility of splitting the audiophile group down the middle and effect the way we receive music for the foreseeable future. This forum can have some power when we group to agree or disagree on OUR future means of enjoyment.
I have read so many technical papers on MQA, that I see no benefit in introducing another way of messing with the way music was meant to be heard. And some of us have spent considerable money on our equipment so we CAN hear music the way it is meant to be heard. Whether you have spent $5k or $500k, its as relevant because that's how much we can afford on our systems. I for one do not want my music messed with. I like it as I enjoy it - straight, black disk or silver. Why can't we have streamed music as we hear it on radios, be it AM, FM or DBA+. Why change it?
Sorry for taking this forum a different direction, but its important that as a group we can have a voice. We can individually share opinions or experiences on music or hardware or setup help, but the strength of a forum can be to be a voice that has strength to say NO to something.
I am retired, have metal for joints and spine fused. I also found out a month ago I have cancer. I can't do much but enjoy my music, and have a voice. I like my music as it is. I like reading what others say. I respect opinion. I don't want anyone messing it up. Heck, Governments mess up enough things! I can't fight them, except the way I vote. And you got Trump! Have shares in Twitter gone up?
Sorry about the diatribe... time to turn the black disc over. :)
I recently asked about a dedicated audio room chair and received several good suggestions. No one gave any attitude about searching and several “threads” came up as already asked questions for me to peruse through.
Society seems coarser today than ten years ago. Endless argument parades as universal entertainment, without the disciplines of logic, rhetoric and civility undergirding it. Unfortunately, many people think they are smarter than others, funnier than others, more important than others etc. I often describe it as people believing everything around them (life) is a movie and they are life's essential star; every person around them is of lesser importance. These folks treat others as unessential annoyances or worse. In reality, an equally valuable person resides on the other end of every forum message, text, call, email.... Kindness counts. It can be contagious...and it is in need of more adherents. BTW A'gon has some of the nicest people I've dealt with on the internet. Peace Al
Well, I tend to think everyone has there right to an opinion, but they are just that someone's opinion. I have been parts of many different forums for many different types of things and it's always been that way, someone has an opinion, someone doesn't agree, and Walla conflict. This tends to happen here with cables topic quite often, I just say this. I can't hear with your ears and you can't hear with mine. So what sounds great to you might not sound good to me, we all have audible differences and it's better to just respect others opinions cause they have a rite to them just like I do.
Indeed the forum has become coarse but most often on arguments about science vs empirical evidence (ie-fuses, interconnects) or on certain threads where a dealer hijacks the exchange about a product to damn it with faint praise, talk about his vast experience and submit, as a matter of fact, the "best" product for the OP would not be the one discussed but one which-- after years of careful study and comparison--he thinks is better and just happens to sell. It would be nice if the rules here prevented promotional dealer conduct. The exception of course, would be if the thread is about a product and the dealer, as one with experience with the product, can provide an answer to the OP which may incidentally involve praise for the product. Non-promotional conduct by a dealer would be permitted-(e.g. a dealer weighs in on a thread to provide information responsive to the OP that is not promotional in nature). That being said, there is thankfully only one dealer on the forum who wastes our time with the above type of prohibited self promotion. In a way, that is a tribute to the hundreds of other dealers around the country who participate here.
@amg56 so sorry to hear of your cancer and so thankful that you exist. Music lovers are music to my ears, and you are one.
What makes a forum go downhill is the idea that the person is the issue to attack, not the ideas from a person.
Ideas can be right, or wrong, or neither one (taste, experience, feelings). We can't attack people for having ideas, only for being clearly unwilling to look at other ideas.
Energy flows downhill and the President is putting out some very cynical and disrespectful and contentious energy for the last 18 months, and that energy has certainly crept in here as well. So we all have to double down on our humanity right now.
Audiophiles all need to understand that creating a playback system is your form of creativity, and as such there are no wrong answers. You all do not write, record or perform music (by and large) you play it back as an expression of who you are. Some folks are more analytical, some more emotional, neither is wrong.
Respect is the word sadly in the age of hiding behind keyboards and not talking directly people tend to show their real side just not their public side. I was "attacked" for spending good $$ on the audioquest Fire for my turntable on a VPI forum! It really at the end of the day did not bother me other than the superior smarmy tone of the "attacker". I dunno of all the BS i see on these forums it seems cables are the big one. Just mutual respect and and maybe we all police the board together?
Personally, I feel that the worst offenders are folks who own a certain piece of gear and come out swinging even at the slightest hint of criticism regarding their gear of choice. See what happened on the Goldenear Reference thread. The OP was asking for opinions from people who have either heard OR own the speakers. I chimed in and provided my opinion. I was upfront about the fact that I had heard it at dealer showrooms twice, but one of the posters started calling the opinions as 'laughable' and 'crap' and accusing me of doing a great disservice. I quickly bailed out of that discussion, but this is another form of bullying where the owners resort to tough language to drive out dissenting viewpoints. The irony is that the same poster is ranting about Tekton fanboys on this thread. Lol!
I don't understand why people get so defensive about what they own. For me, unless I am the manufacturer or at least a major shareholder, I just don't understand how people get so emotional about these things.
arafiq - ....See what happened on the Goldenear Reference thread. The OP was asking for opinions from people who have either heard OR own the speakers. I chimed in and provided my opinion. I was upfront about the fact that I had heard it at dealer showrooms twice, but one of the posters started calling the opinions as 'laughable' and 'crap' and accusing me of doing a great disservice. I quickly bailed out of that discussion, but this is another form of bullying where the owners resort to tough language to drive out dissenting viewpoints. ...
Hi arafiq. I'm sure you're aware I am not the one you are referring to. That said, while I cannot speak/write for the particular poster you are referring to, I shall extend an apology simply on the basis that I'm a Golden Ear Triton Reference owner who also happened to post in that same thread. All the best.
@gdhal No sir, you're most definitely not the one I was referring to :) You stated your POV in a very reasonable and respectful manner.
BTW, I completely understand that anyone who owns a certain piece of gear has done a lot of research before they made their decision, So it is reasonable to expect them to share their passion and wisdom. My point was that there is a fine line between enthusiasm and vitriol.
I think to answer your question... we can improve the communication by keeping the discussion on the point. Stick to the OP question, rather than starting your own thread in someone else's thread. As A'Goners, we can point others back to the original question.
I always hate threads that start with "anyone have experience with a Doodad who can compare Doodad A to Doodads B and C?".... to which someone replies and says "The best Doodad is F." In other words, this doesn't answer the question and doesn't contribute to anything. It's just some shill for the F product who wants to promote it. Generally I believe that if someone comes in here and asks specifically about a comparison of two products, they have done research and are getting down to final choices. So, let's help them out if we can... as long as we can relate back to the original question, or how the thread may evolve.
@jayctoy I think I'm answering you... too often people cannot accept that there is a differing opinion, so they have to attack others for having a dissenting opinion. Instead, let's remind people to help each other and focus on the point, rather than pointing fingers at each other.
Great thread. I believe, as a whole, that society has lost a level of common civility...that simply being nice to one another is just not that important anymore. And that’s a shame.
My big beef with the forum is that there are many people who take themselves/this hobby way to seriously. A great example is any thread having to deal with MQA. While there are many of us here who are simply enjoying what amounts to a feature on our Tidal subscription, there are many who will turn that into a behavior that will cause musicians/artists to go bankrupt, cause record companies to line their vaults with cash, allowing them to lock the “crown jewels” in said vaults, cause the death of FLAC & other formats, etc., etc., etc...and that all this must reflect in someway on my character in general, because if I’m ok with the above, I must be ok with cheating on the SAT, cutting in the TSA line & killing stray puppies! (I condone NONE of these behaviors, for the record...)
I guess my point is to reinforce what others here have said: it’s ok & natural to disagree...we are, afterall, expressing our opinions. But if you disagree, limit it to the discussion at hand, don’t attack someone’s individual character. I’m pretty certain that enjoying music however you may is the real point to all this, and not stressing about how someone else is enjoying there music...
Just my $0.02 worth. Be nice to someone today, please...
Geez I am so sorry that I may have hurt someone's feelings. So anyway all of your systems suck except for mine! HA, I said it! Kidding. The entire journey takes a lifetime, so enjoy the ride and help each other to learn and discover more. Happy Listening.
It seems to me there are a variety of basic characters here. There's those who don't know much and want to learn. There are some who know some stuff. There are those who really know nothing and come here to peddle their myths. I feel I'm somewhere between the first and second type. I don't know everything by a long shot, but I know enough to recognize nonsense when I see it. When I see folks show up boasting myths or claiming they invented the 4 mode of transistor operation or the next frontier in bass reproduction (all things I've actually run across here), I don't think it's out of line to put some pointed questions to those claims. If somebody can't tolerate their claims being scrutinized like an adult, then those people should refrain from expressing themselves. It would probably help if people could be honest about what they like. It would be cool if people didn't lord their decades of buying gear over people as if that passes for technical knowledge, too. I think a lot of problems would go away if all that stopped.
i don't notice anything like that. Younger People need to grow A heavier coat of skin. Did you just get out of collage ?? They do a mind job on kids. Everything is great from My point of view Good luck young fella
My opinions. Some people are trolls that hide behind the security of the internet and therefore, they can say what they want or insult whomever they want with impunity. There is really no recourse for them. No penalty, or pushback. Rudeness resounds in this country (USA) and has for the last 10 years or so. don't get me started. Rude, obnoxious people crawled our from under whatever rocks they were hiding under and decided that it was now okay to insult whomever. Mostly from a very strong sense of entitlement and superiority.
They were never called out for it.
But, if they were to say such things to your face, there very well might be a fight.
Opinions vary, but that is all they are, opinions. Fuses??? what ever makes you happy. Audio Research bashing? that just makes no sense to me.
I have no problem with healthy discussions and even heightened expressions of opinions. I do however have a problem with rude people and bullies. People that refuse to get in line and decide to cut lines, either standing or in traffic. People that insult because you don't follow their viewpoint. Religious, etc. people that try to push others around.
this is a forum about the high end of audio. I also am into restorations of classic cars and I can tell you that the Mopar crowd vs the Corvette Crowd, vs the Porsche crowd??? oh boy. you talk about insults and heated arguments. wow. And they do it to your face.
but it all comes down to basic selfishness in my opinion. Certain people feel that their opinion is the only one that matters and that because they feel they are right, then everyone else must be wrong.
I learned a long, long time ago, that there can be more than one "right". Many people have not cared to learn this valuable lesson.
I had a conversation a few minutes ago with a female friend and she outlined her opinion that if she felt someone was rude to her then they were rude period. I explained that it may be cultural differences and that the person may not be rude at all, but just because you "felt" someone was rude, doesn't mean that they actually were. I couldn't budge her opinion one bit. "Oh no, if I feel that person is rude, then to me they are." Really? I said. What if you were wrong? "how could I be wrong when I felt they were rude?" circular conversation. The example of people from New York came up. How many feel that people from New York are rude. I explained that in my opinion, based on my trips there, no one I met was rude. They were simply always in a constant state of hurry. They had things to do and places to go and didn't have time to sit around chit chatting. waiting for slow people to make up their minds. So, they were trying to rush things along. Some feel they are rude. but to me they weren't. In New York it is considered rude to have eye contact. But in LA, not establishing eye contact makes you weak, rude and definitely a target. Different place, different attitudes.
I believe in respect. Rude people, especially children should be set straight. otherwise they feel that it is okay to do or say whatever. parents that let their children act out in public, well, I understand whey children grow up being rude. Well, it is not okay and they should be called out for it. However, one first has to be very, very clear as to whether that person is rude.
I have seen many examples here of extremely rude people participating in forums. No way would they have the same conversation face to face.
In closing, if you see rude, call them out on it.
Healthy disagreements are one thing. Rudeness quite the other.
But I'll tell you one thing. I've disagreed with people about high end equipment. But, when you put us in the same room doing A/B comparisons for that equipment, we ultimately hear the same things and agree.
It is what it is. I read few things on here anymore and participate in significantly fewer. That being said, those Tekton fan boys have nothing on the TRL vs. APL Hifi fanboy threads. Those threads were legendary and make today's seem tame in comparison. Sort of like the part in the Godfather when they went to the mattresses. I lost count of how many threads got erased.
Every forum should have a restricted area for those members who just want to have an argument. If their behavior suggests that's all they want, their account access should be restricted to only that area for a prescribed period of time. I think that is the best way to handle people that don't want to be civil or stick to the subject at hand - sort of a modern day version of this:
It is the trolls. It is the trolls. It is the trolls. Read any thread with controversy, and these same ones keep popping up. Fuses, coupling / damping feet, power cords, etc. These trolls argue for wanting scientific explanation, or just total disbelief, and call it snake oil, but fail to try, and use their own ears. And they will keep coming back for more, and more, and more. They are closed minded to a few simple facts. We all listen differently, hear things differently, enjoy things differently ( audio stuff ), and it is not their money buying this stuff. So, why do they care ?
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