Clearthink, there is NO argument in opposition to what I'm saying except from those who're simply uninformed. The post by mmeysarosh two posts prior to your last further makes my point. Maybe I didn't iterate it eloquently enough to start or something. I don't see Michael really disagreeing. A few others clearly see my point. There's just a couple of you yanking out your hair and screaming "It can't be measured!!!" while there appears to be consensus that spacial attributes can be measured, are measured, and those measurements form the basis of replication. I didn't ask anybody to prove you can't measure spacial effects. That would be ridiculous since you obviously can!
Please Read and express your feelings and opinions....
I noticed that lately or maybe for the last five yrs, there is so much arguments,name calling, attacking cables , speakers , components makers and more, more of disagreement with members, even Audio dealers are being attack here...Very few know how to apologize when they are wrong.What can we do as Audiogon members to improve our communication to each other? How to give the informations, recommendation to members who need it? This is without involving Audiogon, any opinion or ideas , For me this is fun and place to learn in audio...thank you all
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kosst_amojan""there is NO argument in opposition to what I’m saying except from those who’re simply uninformed." That’s really funny I have to say some of the funniest things I have ever read on Audiogon have been over just the last few days you must be a lot of fun at parties! "There’s just a couple of you yanking out your hair and screaming "It can’t be measured!!!" I am not yanking out my hair and I never said that so you must be badly confused or have me confused with some one else. |
kosst_amojan Clearthink, there is NO argument in opposition to what I’m saying except from those who’re simply uninformed. The post by mmeysarosh two posts prior to your last further makes my point. Maybe I didn’t iterate it eloquently enough to start or something. I don’t see Michael really disagreeing. A few others clearly see my point. >>>>Actually, mmeysarosh wasn’t making your point at all. What he said, among other things, is you have to deal with the acoustics of a room - one room at a time. As I have oft said with respect to speaker set up, trial and error by listening a little, moving a little does not work the best. The best way to optimize the sound - especially SOUNDSTAGE - is by obtaining correct speaker placement with a Test CD that has a speaker set-up track, like the XLO Test CD. This method ensures ideal speaker placement for *the given room* - at that point in time - and will ensure the best soundstage for that particular room for however it’s configured AT THAT TIME. NOTE - This method requires using your ears. You don’t measure anything. But whatever soundstage is achievable at that point in time CAN BE IMPROVED by further improvements to room acoustics, using better electronics, better cables, better topology, contact enhancers, fuses, the whole nine yards. There is NO END to how good the soundstage (relative to the original recording venue space) can get it requires a lot of effort. I never promised you a rose garden. 🌹 🌹 🌹Having heard a great many advanced systems I think I can say without fear of contradiction many people believe they have conquered Everest or almost conquered it but in reality they have not yet reached Base Camp, which is only half way up the mountain. 🏔 |
soundermn115 posts04-13-2018 11:29amI think to answer your question... we can improve the communication by keeping the discussion on the point. Stick to the OP question, rather than starting your own threadLooks like I nailed it. After the first page, this thread isn’t related to the OP question at all! How does "soundstage" and all this studio discussion relate to the question? The actual question was... What can we do as Audiogon members to improve our communication to each other? How to give the informations, recommendation to members who need it? |
Hi Kosst It's not really my place to agree or disagree, I deal with the physical audio variables. I don't look at recording or playback as a "Fixed" entity. I see testing and measuring technologies as an advancing science, even though this science (as with any) is constantly learning and implementing. 10 years ago seems like a lifetime away by todays latest R&D. For example what JA did 10 years ago is somewhat obsolete now. I'm sure he would say the same thing. Bob Hodas would no doubt agree as all the up to date measuring gurus would have to. Testing is always advancing and I would guess by the time your debate is over with Geoff and others we will be looking and listening to hologram sight & sound reproductions. I mean they're really just around the corner, and then all of HEA will be an archive of listening only. So measuring to me is like a building block. Is it human yet? No of course not, and it's not, because of the points Geoff and others are making. Is it going to be? Of course it will, we see this in moving making now. However here's where the issue comes down for me. Lets say I make a recording of a hall, or am previewing someone else's. I go into the tunable room and tune it in for me to look at the height and mate it up to the actual recording. After I'm done another listener goes in and says my call is inaccurate for him. He then tunes up the same recording to his ears so he is now hearing the hall as he remembers, or wants to. I do this level of listening on an ongoing basis and have since around 1989. From time to time, since then till now, measuring folks are welcome to come do their thing and see if they can capture what is taking place for each person as an individual and a more in general sense. Where this stands now would more than likely need to be in a tunable room that is both flexible and environmentally adaptable. That's a tall order for this thread to engage in, let alone some of the folks I have worked with or studied their approach. To test an measure this accurately I can help from a variable physical structure, but I would think that the testing itself would need some pretty special equipment to be able to make a more than snap shot polaroid type of result. It's possible that my room is the most advanced to date in regards to the variables, but that's again at best only half of the equation. I think the two worlds (human & tools) can meet, I just haven't seen it yet. I'm sure though getting closer every day. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
Hi Soundermn I agree, but I also think that the topic shift has turned into a nice example for the OP. For me anyways, it has certainly shown a few things. It has shown how different sides of a question can be answered and also how people react as their paygrade is established. Over the last couple of days I have thought "what a great thread to show in social studies". It would be interesting to see a class tear this apart and take side. I bet we would fine several different sides and not just two or three. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
Another perspective. I attend a fair amount of live, acoustic, concerts and IMHO none of them have the soundstage that many audio systems have. The whole imaging and soundstaging thing is a parlor trick inside a parlor trick that was perpetrated by The Absolute Sound. All it has helped to do is to take the focus off of correct tonal balance and put it on, IMHO, what is, at best, an artifact of the recording process. |
The whole imaging and soundstaging thing is a parlor trick inside a parlor trick that was perpetrated by The Absolute Sound. All it has helped to do is to take the focus off of correct tonal balance and put it on, IMHO, what is, at best, an artifact of the recording process.Now there is a post with some substance that I agree with! |
kosst_amojan The statement Geoff made about spacial cue not being measurable is patently false and we do measure it and replicate it through all manner of trickery at the recording and play back ends. @costco_emoji - What the ding ding are you talking about? First of all, I did not make any such statement. I did not say spatial cue could not be measured. There is much more to “soundstage” than some spatial cues. Period. It’s not nice to shove words down someone’s throat. The soundstage in all of its glory, it’s dimesionality, it’s transparency, it’s gestalt, details, it’s ...realism, etc., is right there on the recording. All that’s required is to dig it out of the grooves by hook or crook. That’s why audiophiles go to extremes, you know, tweaks and isolation, chicken bones if they would help, to extract the soundstage and *all the information* that’s “hidden” there. We don’t want you guys replicating anything. Didn’t you understand my previous comment. Stay out of the high end! We don’t want you replicating anything, faking the soundstage, removing tape hiss or compressing dynamics. |
And the other half of you deserve to prattle on with ad hominem arguments on audio forums. And the third half of you should be banished to listening to Bose systems. The final half of you should be forced to memorize the words to the America penned tune “Muscrat Love” (though the Captain and Tenille did it better). |
@geoffkait Yeah, you did. Anybody can go back and look. @viridian I consider that argument a cannard perpetuated by those who like speakers that simply don't image well. And just as you put it, tonal quality is always juxtaposed against imaging as if they're mutually exclusive properties. I don't agree. |
Kosst_ feel free to consider my perspective anything that you care to, however I use mini monitors that image quite well. I just fail to hear that type of imaging in the concert hall. And, of course, my hearing could certainly be suspect. I will say that, years ago, when I used Altec 19s, JBL Apollos and Klipsch Cornwalls that presentational aspect of the sound had greater veracity to the concert hall, however the diversions from tonal correctness were a bit hard to live with. I think that we pick the distortions that we can live with in the end. So in my case it’s not a result of owning speakers that don’t image well, but simply a preference for what I believe is a closer representation of concert hall sound. I would ask do you hear this kind of imaging in the concert hall? If you don’t then it is fair to say that is an artifact of the recording/reproduction process, though, to some, a pleasant one. And I think that it is an intentional misreading of my post to say that I suggest that good soundstage and tonal accuracy are, in some way, mutually exclusive. What I said was the Absolute Sound took the emphasis off of tonal correctness when began to focus, almost solely, on aspects of soundstaging. But you knew that’s what I said. |
@geoffkait "That is illogical, Captain. We actually can not (rpt not) measure soundstage height or any other dimension, the sound characteristics of the recording venue, sweetness, warmth, presence, wetness, bass tautness, transparency, glare, things of that nature. As I read your manifesto, the ability to measure anything is pretty much your whole premise.Better luck next time." There it is, you liar. 2 pages back. |
@viridian The vast majority of the concerts I've been to have been outside and powerfully amplified. The few events I've attended in an auditorium without amplification aren't something I'd enjoy hearing in my living room. I wouldn't want a recording that sounded 50 to 75 feet away. Trying to capture that essence is of low to no priority to me. Very little of what I listen to is recorded in a live performance setting. It's mostly studio work. Live recordings really don't have much depth or image specificity, generally, unless they're very artfully recorded to capture that in a venue set up specifically to capture that. I know tone chasers are a different bunch. I don't really understand the more extreme of that crowd. I think I and them are using stereos for very different purposes. |
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Some Audiogoners (no names) start threads after threads which ask the same questions, over and over and over again. They usually get thoughtful responses, but they, the OPs, don’t seem to learn anything or have the motivation to act on any of the thoughtful responses. At best, "they" seem confused or maybe have too much time on their idle hands. Consequently, they post yet again. And again. Because I visit this website in hopes of learning something useful, and not reading endless echoes, seeing those sorts of posts makes me wonder WTF? So, sometimes I speak up and call it out. I also understand, that I am under no pressure to return to A’gon. :) I also understand that many audiophiles are obsessive and nervous (not yours truly of course) and nothing will temper their insecurities. :) Happy listening, folks! |
"
Some Audiogoners (no names) start threads after threads which ask the
same questions, over and over and over again. They usually get
thoughtful responses, but they, the OPs, don’t seem to learn anything or
have the motivation to act on any of the thoughtful responses. At best,
"they" seem confused or maybe have too much time on their idle hands.
" - ps In Audiogon forums, the ratio of the clueless soothing their fragile egos with endless hand waiving nonsense to the knowledgeable citing proven science and mathematical evidence tends to be pretty high. This scenario is clearly not restricted to Audiogon alone. A high percentage of forums possess posters who "command respect from followers" simply because they have several thousand posts under their belt. The fact that most of their contributions have been hand waiving BS intentionally or unintentionally misleading others doesn't seem to matter. The "reputation" and "belief system" are all that counts. And when a newcomer or "unknown" hits the scene with "facts from the big bad world outside", he/she is often scorned, ridiculed, challenged for credentials, or in egregious cases - the "followers" implore moderators to ban the newbie if the newbie presents facts that disagree with the "grand proclamations of resident forum experts". The end result is often persistent ignorance, in many cases, this ignorance persists with basic fundamental subjects that "in the big bad world outside", have been settled long ago and are considered trivial. This fiefdom syndrome is made worse when utterly unqualified salesmen are allowed to pitch their products without any deference to science or facts.The mere fact that they've been pitching the same old garbage for 30 years is supposed to be enough for the "followers" and sadly in many cases, it is. So just as it is with other forums, at Audiogon, there are a significant number of influences that impede technical progress - causing issues to be constantly revisited that should have been settled long ago. |
cj1965 In Audiogon forums, the ratio of the clueless soothing their fragile egos with endless hand waiving nonsense to the knowledgeable citing proven science and mathematical evidence tends to be pretty high ... The fact that most of their contributions have been hand waiving BS intentionally or unintentionally misleading others doesn't seem to matter ... The end result is often persistent ignorance ... with basic fundamental subjects that ... have been settled long ago and are considered trivial. This fiefdom syndrome is made worse when utterly unqualified salesmen are allowed to pitch their products without any deference to science or facts ... there are a significant number of influences that impede technical progress - causing issues to be constantly revisited that should have been settled long ago.This rather reads as though you have appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner. If your conviction is as resolute as you suggest here, I can only ask: Why do you participate in this forum? You've characterized it as an obstacle to the progress you apparently seek. Do you think your protestations will change the forum's content and the way it's moderated? Are you simply here to complain about how audiophiles pursue their hobby? In any event, your assertion that this humble forum has been an impediment to "technical progress" is absurd. Progress inexorably marches on, driven by science and complex factors that dwarf whatever influence this forum and its members have - even in their dreams. |
On a positive note, the best way to deal with clueless self proclaimed "experts" that argue incessantly with self aggrandizing, self promotional blather and nonsense is to simply ignore them. Every forum has them and for newbies, it can be a little daunting trying to decipher between those who are legitimate subject matter experts and the village idiots. In general, the village idiots are the ones who never come up with solid information on their own but spend most of their time praising the anointed "experts" while antagonizing any who offer "new" or "different" information. The other form of "village idiot" that constantly antagonizes others while no one ever seems to respond - it's pretty safe to assume that as most everyone has given up communicating with them, it's probably a good idea not to bother trying yourself. Another helpful hint in avoiding needless conflict with village idiots or people who do nothing more than contribute anger, frustration, and argument is to check other similar online forums with similar sounding member handles. A member search on forums like DIY audio, Stereophile, AudioHeritage will often reveal that such village idiots have a long, proven track record of unchecked stupid, aggravating, or otherwise annoying behavior. Armed with these tools, we don't have to always get sucked in to the next stupid argument. As they say, it takes at least two.... |
I'd say if your desire is learning, there are better resources. Mr. Carlson's Lab on YouTube. Diyaudio.com. Passdiy.com. The Burning Amp lectures. Just to name a few. Reading people discussing the finer points of gain device characteristics is a much more fascinating endeavor than reading amatures rattling on about exotic fuses. |
There are quite a few people on this forum that come to learn. Yes, often they are misguided while learning because they don't have a complete grasp or understanding of the original subject matter. Several people have gained a real education here. Probably not village idiots in the beginning, but definitely not as time goes on. |
kosst_amojan I’d say if your desire is learning, there are better resources. Mr. Carlson’s Lab on YouTube. Diyaudio.com. Passdiy.com. The Burning Amp lectures. Just to name a few. Reading people discussing the finer points of gain device characteristics is a much more fascinating endeavor than reading amatures rattling on about exotic fuses. >>>>It appears there are a great many folks who are extremely “circuit-focused” and who refuse to even consider there’s anything else to this hobby other than measurements and circuits of gain devices. That group, as manifested over on DIYAudio (and elsewhere), comprises some of THE most closed-minded and dismissive people I’ve ever seen. Any topic or concept that’s more than 1 Sigma away from the group and the moderator there is quickly attacked and deep six’d. The Blowtorch thread over on DIYAudio, where John Curl holds forth (at least John himself is not nearly so hyper focused) is up to what, 3 million posts? Including his disciples, the ones with glistening eyes. 😳 That’s 3 Million posts, people, not views. Can you say Hyper focused? He-loo! Knowledge can be defined as what’s left after you subtract everything you forgot from school. The education system has been broken for like forever anyway, have a nice day 😃 |
I agree that DIY is more focused on the technical aspect. Audiogon is more focused on the sound quality. With that said, I also believe that DIY has posted some killer amp designs that sound fabulous. DIY audio has helped me graduate to just above a "Village Idiot" in amp design... I have now built my own amps and modified a few. There are folks that are willing to help here on Agon, but in DIY, these are more the daily topics of discussion. |
@timlub I see it as they're just focused on achieving results. You see different sorts gathering around different things for different results. I've been looking over line stage stuff a little because that's my next project, but I've enjoyed the F7 thread and the speculation going on over there. I don't understand why some people are allergic to numbers and measurements. You can't construct much of anything without taking some measurements somewhere. This allergy to measurements is about as anti-intellectual and counterproductive as you can get. |
@kosst_amojan I can't disagree with measurements vs speculation... In my case, I haven't always had the capability without diving into some real study to grasp all the measurements. I may at some point, so for me maybe I am the village idiot, because I have dove in on a few occasions. I must be lucky because to date, I have blown anything up. The line insinuating that folks on Agon are allergic to measurements seems to be a bit overblown. You are 100 percent correct though that if you want someone to share about circuit design that you are much better over at DIY. |
I don't understand why some people are allergic to numbers and measurements. You can't construct much of anything without taking some measurements somewhere. This allergy to measurements is about as anti-intellectual and counterproductive as you can get.+1 If it doesn't measure well, I keep working on the circuit. I've been able to measure effects of fuses and power cords, which has often put me at odds with some that make apocryphal claims about them, but also those that I usually regard as 'objectivists' that won't take anything seriously without good measurements. In the latter case, they don't seem to want to cause their hand to move and make the measurements, instead proclaiming that a fuse or power cord can't make a difference. Without the measurements, their proclamations seem to me as bad (and for the same reason) as those that make the apocryphal claims. |
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Yep... Those pesky measurements! And the guys who invent the stuff this hobby is made of. Shame on them for actually achieving results! Quite unlike you and your magic rocks and silly spots. - kosst_amojan For some people, "results" means using antiquated 80 year old technology that is highly vulnerable to changes in performance depending on what it's connected to. And for some folks, the lack of bass and exaggerated highs, coupled with increased harmonic distortion when using this ancient "technology" is "pleasing" or "desirable". Similarly, others see the pops and ticks, rapid wear, uneven high frequency performance, limited dynamic range, increased distortion, wow, and flutter associated with ancient vinyl technology as "more authentic". Unfortunately, we can't confine such individuals who promote and buy this junk to padded cells. We pretty much have to create invisible "padded cells" that effectively allow ourselves to ignore them. Magic resistors, magic vacuum tubes, magic cable suspenders, magic tonearms, magic cartridges, magic isolation blocks, magic "liquid" cables, magic fuses - all roped and cordoned off in those imaginary padded cells. It boils down to ignorance and acceptance. We don't have to "fix" or accept their ignorance - just ignore it and them. |
