Tweeter Capacitor Upgrade (Coincident PREs)

@cal3713 ,  I think we are aligned with respect to our thinking on crossover parts selection in the Coincident Speaker family.  I just don't get it.   To pair the superb Accutron with a piece of junk in a 30K speaker to save $500 seams just weird.   I can understand it in a mid-tier speaker, because after all, one needs to ensure a performance differential between one's mid level speaker and one's top tier cost no object offering.   But putting Solens in the PRE, especially in a marketing scenario that eliminates the middleman, is a decision that is hard to understand. 

@beetlemania  You should note that I did pair Duelund bypass caps (Ag .01uF) with the clarity caps in my PREs and didn't like what they did to the sound.  They added a little color, but also added some distortion and phasiness.  I also tried adding them to the Jupiters, but found no added benefit and again thought I heard the negatives.  Just pulled them out after listening to one song. 

Note that my main caps are 4.7uF, so perhaps that bypass is too small to induce the positive changes that Erik has heard...

@cal3713
Thanks!

Color is what I thought the Audyn TC bypass caps added. :) I haven't noticed better imaging, but now I have a new amp so maybe I should do that experiment again?

I need about a total of 13 or 14uF in tweeter caps per speaker, so around $1,400 total. Not something I can afford for a while.

Best,

E

clarity cap was neutral and "ruler flat". I thought that was pretty descriptive. It was clean, but I lost some warmth and color compared to the original solens. The Jupiters brought that back in spades while also adding better imaging.

Nice! Now I'm back to wondering about replacing my RTX bypasses with Jupiter - lol.

@erik_squires I remember reading on humblehifi that the clarity cap was neutral and "ruler flat". I thought that was pretty descriptive. It was clean, but I lost some warmth and color compared to the original solens. The Jupiters brought that back in spades while also adding better imaging. 

@brownsfan And yes, the PREs are made to that tough to hit $30k (recent price increase) mark. Crazy that they can't spend an extra $500 in parts to make the speakers sound their best. Even crazier that there's a $20 cap in there. Just mind bottling.

@cal3713,  I am happy you have found the Jupiters to your liking, and I agree completely with your comment regarding the manufacturer's choice of Solens for the PREs.   I know even the PREs are made to a price point, but I know in my case with the Super Victory IIs, those Jupiters were transformative. That cap really moved the speaker to an entirely different level of performance.   I expected you would find that also to be true with your Accutrons, but one never knows for sure.  It is always an experimental question in the end.  Keep us posted as you continue the burn in process. 

Hey @Cal3713
Glad to hear you are so happy. :)

Listen, can you tell me what your experience is comparing the Clarity with the Jupiters?

Best,

E

@brownsfan  etc.  Finally got the Jupiters into my system this week (after burning in for 100-150 hours).  They were so big that I had to run a wire from the tweeter out of the rear port on the PRE's head units and fashion an external crossover, but wow do they sound great.  

It's a travesty that these speakers ship with solen caps at their list price.  I'd say this is a mandatory upgrade for any other owners.  

I also tried the Duelund bypass caps on the Jupiters and again thought it caused some phasiness and mild distortion.  So I'm with @grannyring that they should stay out of the speaker crossovers.

Thanks for all the recommendations.  It's nice to see that the top vote getter was also a great choice.

Again, for any other PRE owners out there, this is really a huge leap forward in performance.

Hi @cal3713 ,

I use Duelund bypass Cu-Sn in my HF crossover - bypassing 3.9uF Duelund RS and in the output of my phonostage -  bypassing 1uF Jupiter Cu.
And before Duelund RS I used Duelund bypass Cu-Sn bypassing vintage oil 4uF capacitor in HF crossover .
I all 3 cases I don't hear any dividing of sound by parts so typical for capacitors bypassing. In addition to that, most of LP records and CDs sound very pleasant and musical. Even some records that didn't sound  pleasant before bypassing!

Regards,
Alex.

@erik_squires Thanks for the suggestion on the Audyns Erik.  Depending on how the Jupiters work out, I may give them a shot.  My only hesitation is that I didn't have the problem of hearing "nothing" upon adding the lower value bypass... (see above comment)

@alexberger  Yeah, everything's got about 150-200 on it.  

I'm open to bypassing, but do wonder whether I will always hear some smearing.  There's just that one capacitor between the amps and my accutons... introducing two paths of different lengths seems like it might always reduce coherence.  

I feel 0.01uF is way to little

I have Multicap RTX bypasses (~1%) on my Clarity CSAs. On well-recorded music this sounds fantastic. Excellent transients with resolution and transparency for days. But poorly recorded music can sound "cool", even thin, most notably on vocals. I’m wondering if a double bypass or different bypass cap might add a bit more flesh or hint of warmth. The Jupiter copper foil at 0.01 uF caught my interest but your post has me second guessing. Two questions:
a) do you think a different bypass or double bypass would result in the sound I seek?
b) if yes, more likely to get a good result with Jupiter double bypass at 0.01 uF or Audyn TC Max at ~1%.

Hi @cal3713 ,

Did you give break-in to Duelund bypass?
They need more then 100 hours. 

I  meant:

4uF is the border for Clarity CMR. Above that, bypassing helps, below that it does not. 
4.7 uF ..... is right close. So it's worth trying but in the end you may find it's not worth it.

Hey Cal,

Did you try 0.1uF Audyn True Copper?

I feel 0.01uF is way to little. I've had 4x that and had no effect at all, also Duelund silvers.

I suggest you try the Audyn's because the value is right (0.1uF) and relatively cheap ($20  / each) 
If you hear no useful improvement, and you are on the border, then I'd give up on anything else.

And to go back to the thread... regarding the capacitors, I did decide to remove the Duelund bypass caps (.01uF AG) last night. They seemed to improve the tonality of the Clarity cap (a bit "richer" high frequencies), but I was also hearing some smearing that was irritating me.  I haven't done the full A/B, but I do think that removing them cleared things up a bit.  Curious to hear the Jupiters next week.

@d2girls Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to be around too many high end systems that might compete with the Coincident PREs (previous speakers were Thiel 1.6s, 2.4s, and Coicident Super Eclipse IIIs). 

As they should be, the PREs are in a different league from those other speakers.  It's been a real learning experience getting these set up, even coming from another Coincident system (I amplified the SEIIIs with their Franks).  It probably took me 6 months to really dial them in.  I had to replace my speaker cables, my 300bs & rectifier tubes, add new power cables, grounding wires, replace a "harsh" power strip, consolidate all my gear down onto one dedicated line, and am now adding new capacitors to the head units.  I've also tried four different amplifiers (the Franks, Atma-sphere M60s, the Pass XA25, and Lyngdorf TDAI 3400).   

At various points I've had almost no bass, harsh irritating high frequencies, and muddy imaging. Gradually, however, it's become clear that none of those problems were because of the speakers... just some other part of my system that had to be brought up.  Having persevered through all that I do think I'm committed to the speakers.  Obviously they're brutally revealing, but can also sound really warm and gentle once everything is setup correctly.  As I said, the process of getting them setup has been incredibly educational.  

That said, I believe your concerns about dealing with the company is also a real issue.  My speakers were damaged in shipping and so I had to interact a lot during the repair process.  I could go on and on, but do expect to be charged a premium fee for any parts or repairs.  And if there is ever any problems or conflict, do not expect Coincident to do anything to "make it right."      

So if you are bypassing old caps, measure the ESR, and then ensure that in parallel, your new caps don’t cut that more than 0.2 Ohms or so.

You can use something like the free XSim crossover simulator to examine the impedance plot and add the appropriate resistance with the bypass cap.

With bypass I noticed that vocals, saxophones and acoustic guitars sound not as smooth and tonaly reach as it was without bypass. It seems it cause a deep in lover mid range.

This can certainly be a symptom of what I'm describing. The amp used matters a lot, so this will be worse with tube gear.

You can measure ESR with Dayton DATS or a home grown jig using Room EQ Wizard. It can help you compensate accordingly.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

Hi @erik_squires ,

I get it. 

With bypass I noticed that vocals, saxophones and acoustic guitars sound not as smooth and tonaly reach as it was without bypass. It seems it cause a deep in lover mid range.

I think that vintage oil capacitors should be replaced by something that have a natural tone. I don't want to use cheap Solen capacitors. They sound too synthetic. I avoid to use them even for tube amp power supplies.

Let me add a little:
If you mess up the 2nd pole in the low pass filter, you can drop the impedance through the area above the crossover point, which actually doesn’t change your LP frequency response very much, but if your amp has very much output impedance at all, it will drop the output. Weird right? Seen it 2-3 times.

If you use a crossover simulator, you'll see this in the impedance graphs, but not the frequency response graphs, unless you have one that lets you simulate amplifier output impedance, then it's super obvious.

Best,
E

hi guys i know this isn't related to the thread topic but i don't feel like making a new thread ... should i seriously be considering coincident pre? i live close to isreal so auditioning is no problem... i had a bad experience with him in the past but my line of thought is i shouldn't let emotions get in the way of owning what is potentially a rock solid speaker that would push above its price point.

i was considering the pre vs wilson audio specalties sasha daw, avantgarde acoulstics duo xd, and maybe kef reference 5. possibly a used jbl d670000... theres been a few for sale for under $40k.
ive also considered a few active systems but i dont think here is the place to ask about those types.

Old capacitors ESR shouldn't be an issue, because I can adjust HPF cutoff frequency by potentiometer.

In shunt caps this can have really bizarre effects, so I doubt it. :) Depends very much on your amp.

For bass caps, you can seriously go cheap. :) It's still a huge improvement.

hi @bache,

Sorry, I meant to say the Audyn TC 0.1 uF was $20, and I was recommending it as a bypass.

@erik_squires 
my point is just clarify that Audin get different line of quality and you mention $20 for 4.7uf. this is not price for   True copper line, max capacitance for this line is 2.2uf i   is good enough for tweeter crossover.
i am using in my loudspeakers 0,47uf value, and i recommend   and 
suggest to use this particular brand.    

Hi @erik_squires ,

Thank you for advice.

I have Altec 604"E" with Werner Jagusch Crossover.
This crossover use vintage German oil capacitors.
I already replaced HPF capacitors to Duelund RS 3.9uF bypassed by Duelund Cu-Sn 0.01uF bypass capacitor.
But for 8uF LPF capacitor Duelunds RS are out of of my range.
I want to try something like Jantzen Alumen, Z-Cap or Jupiter VT.

Today, I tried to bypass vintage German oil capacitors 8uF with Audio Note Copper 0.22uF. The sound cleaned significantly from midrange to bass. Bass became much more firm and focused. Vocals became a little bit less lush but still OK.

I’m a big fun of Duelund capacitors sound. Which of mid price capacitors can you recommend? I need sound as much as possible close to Duelund Custom Cu or RS signature.
Old capacitors ESR shouldn't be an issue, because I can adjust HPF cutoff frequency by potentiometer. (The crossover HPF has serial capacitor and auto-transformer. The input of auto-transformer is shounted by potentiometer) .

Regards,
Alex.

@bache what is your point??

@eric_squires
Audin True Copper 2.2uf -$74.18 (Parts express, commercial sales)

Hey @cal3713
What value Duelund did you bypass with?

Best,
E

How much a quality of the second order LP filter capacitor does influence on sound quality?

@alexberger

Based on my reading, this can be more important than the coil, even though it is in parallel. Especially if the original is an electrolytic, replacing them with even a modest film cap like a cheap Axon or Solen or Mundorf bipolar is going to be a bigger improvement than changing the coil.

Also, changing these caps is a little dicey, especially if replacing 1980's or earlier speakers, the ESR was pretty high and changes need to be compensated for. If you have relatively recent speakers (2000+) you should be fine.
Best,
E

Just an update. I did install the clarity cap cmr with a silver duelund bypass. A really nice improvement from the stock solens (Israel actually claims that stock is mundorf)... Much smoother and cleaner. 

I also found some Jupiters and will try them out in a week or two as well.  Apparently there is very little stock at the large values. I had to have them shipped from England, and they only had 4 in stock. Soniccraft said they may never get that value back in stock.

another vote for Jupiter or Jensen copper foil caps. great caps in a reasonable price range. The Duelands are nice, but physically too large to fit in most apps, unless you build an outboard cross over box.

I'm thinking about upgrade of a second order LP filter capacitor  for my mid-bass driver.
I know the quality of inductor is very important for second order LP filter.
How much a quality of the second order LP filter capacitor does influence on sound quality?
 

Hey @beetlemania
The CMR are excellent caps as mains, but above 4.7uF or so they need bypass caps. Below this, I can’t hear any benefit at all. The CMRs are really excellent caps.


My main speakers use a 3rd order hi-pass filter. To my ears, bypassing the larger cap (~ 10uF) they sound less compressed and more natural. I’m afraid it’s been about 2 years since I did this experiment.


@cal3713 Be aware that the CMR caps are physically huge! You don’t want to mount a 20uF directly to a speaker tab.

May be worth it to get some Duelund jumper cable too.

@erik_squires I’m completely rebuilding my XOs. I have CSAs on the coax board and am comparing with and without Multicap RTX bypasses (~1%). I might also try a CMR bypass. Please characterize for me the SQ of Jupiter as a bypass. Thanks.

Talked me into it Erik.  Also gives me a chance to play some more in the future if I decide to buy some Jupiters or Duelunds.

Not so much worried about the capacitors as the accutons... they have such tiny little tabs, so little room for heatsinks.

You'll be fine. Just don't solder too close to the cap body.

Ha.  I added them to my cart but didn't buy yet.  Very torn about the process.  I suppose experimenting isn't too bad, especially at $55 a cap for the CMRs.  I just worry that I'll fry my tweeters if I play around too much.  Would much rather solder once and be done...

Psssst ....
Do a CMR with a Jupiter bypass cap. :)

Best,
E

Dammit.  The Jupiters are sold out at both PartsConnexiion and SonicCraft.  PC does have the Duelund RS Copper Foil caps, but I think you all talked me into the Jupiters... 

Chris,
Your PRE speaker crossover is pretty simple (fewer part count) and straightforward compared to many other speakers (higher part count). Your instincts are right IMO. Upgrading to a very high quality tweeter capacitor is a very worthwhile single modification. It sure worked out well for me and Bill(Brownsfan). I’m with you in your caution regarding the wire/inductor/binding post. There’s always something better to change to, but these stock PRE items are quite good quality as is. The stock Solens is a 'decent (not garbage) capacitors but is easily bettered.
Charles

At this time, I am not really inclined to do anything besides replace the tweeter capacitor, but clearly there's a lot to think about there.  I think improvement there is highly likely, but I'm a little less confident about the wiring/inductor/post changes. My soldering skills are improving, but I prefer not to touch what I don't have to.

And in regards to some of the conversation, I've looked inside the speakers and indeed, the only cap is on the tweeter. The mid-range is connected directly to the binding posts, and I'm pretty confident that the only component inside the subwoofer cabinet is the large inductor coil.

Thanks again for all the conversation... All very useful.

Do you have 8uF?

Let me know if you want to buy Jupiter caps. I have different values than I would like to unload.   

"I suspect the Duelund by=pass caps might give the accutrons a bit too much resolution. They are not lacking in air and extension even with the Solens, and he could end up with a hyper detailed presentation would be my concern."
It works opposite.
I put Duelund Cu-Sn bypass (in my Altec 604E Werner Jagusch Crossover) bypassing old vintage oil capacitor.
As result a lot of music that sounded bad before started sound good.
After that I replaced old vintage oil capacitor to Duelund RS capacitor with the same bypass Duelund Cu-Sn capacitor. It gave me big improvement in transparency and musicality.
After that I exchanged Belden internal wire to Duelund 16AVG Cu-Sn wire. I can say this wire is magical.

Hi Bill,
As usual you've made wise and very rational decisions,  binding post for example.  No good reason to change the Coincident binding posts. They're pure solid copper as opposed to the typical utilized brass posts
Charles .