Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
The use of GaN-based power transistor tech is now emerging for Class D audio power amplifiers. Seems appropriate to devote a forum thread to this topic. At least 3 companies have commercial class D amps in their books:
Merrill Audio, with their model Element 118 ($36k per monoblock, 400 W into 8 ohms, 800W into 4 ohms), Element 116 ($22k per monoblock, 300 W into 8 ohms, 600W into 4 ohms) and Element 114 (coming soon). https://merrillaudio.net
As stated above prices are high with state of the art Class D Amplifiers using GaN Devices but the hope is there for lower prices in the future, My class D amplifiers are not using GaN Devices but their sound quality allowed me to sell on my higher priced SS and VT amplifiers, before the market becomes flooded.
chris Not a single solid state or class d amp has sounded anywhere close to my Rogue m180 dark mono blocks in my system, not even close.
Well, hopefully that means Rogue finally started using higher quality transformers. My M150s with cryoed tubes, run balanced through an all tube front end, lacked speed of the initial attack
As hs been mentioned several times, what’s in front of the class D amp/s is often suspect. Case in point:
I have an Oppo 105 that I was using with a quality WireWorld toslink int a Parasound P5 (several preamps ago). I upgraded the 105s input IEC and silver wire to the power supply and later I replaced the OEM power supply with a Linear Power Module, but was not happy with the sound, so I bought a Marantz HD CD 1 to use as a transport. When I finally replaced the toslink with a TOL WireWorld Coax the Marantz took a giant step forward, BUT....
I finally got around to hooking my Oppo 105 back up, this time with the Coax. The addition of the coax and a superior XLR between pre and my class D amps is hard to comprehend, unless you heard it, and even then ...
Unless people are willing to do what is necessary to ge the best from class D they will likely poo-poo it. That’s a shame
Hey, did you see Rogue has class D amp too? Maybe they'll let you demo one
Actually the Icepower 1200As has 0.002% THD+N @ 1w. Note the this is THD+N not just THD. This is like 10x better than the very best Pass Labs first watt class A amp. Which is designed to have the lowest 1st watt distortion of any class A amp. Actually Pass doesn’t even share THD+N. Only THD. Could be up to 100x lower THD.
The luddites really need to update their brains with todays tech. Bill Clinton is no longer president, and Class A is no longer king.
Edit: Just read the Pass labs F5 has 60uV noise @1w. The Icepower 1200AS has 30uV noise @ 1w. And you get 1250W! Not just a measly 40W
No religion, just data and facts. Religion is believing something is better with no data and facts to back it. This is the story of the class A fanboys. 1 fact I've noticed about class A is it sure takes a massive hit in resale value on the used market! You lose more money in resale the day you buy a class A amp, than it costs to buy 2-3 better sounding class D amps!
Hello Tweak1 Wich XLR cable made a big change in your system? Today I have the XLR cable provided by Nord, but Im willing to try a new one if it could make a big improvement, not a small one.
miveraaudio"No religion, just data and facts. Religion is believing something is better with no data and facts to back it."
Actually what you are doing hear is exactly what you seem to be complaining about you have your own Bible and set of "facts" based on your fervent beliefs, faith, and convictions and because these are in direct oppositional conflict in fact, theory, and science with those which you do not embrace you insult those with who you disagree as being religious when it is demonstably shown that the simple element at work here is that you have little or no tolerance for those of different religions!
miveraaudio"The objective data and subjective feedback of today’s best class d speaks for itself."
On this single, solitary, lone point I agree with you completely the consistent, reliable, repeated, verifiable, subjective data and experience with Class D shows, demonstrates, and reveals it to be an immature, undeveloped, incomplete technology that while it may hold promise, hope, and favorable prospect for the future is not in it's present form, level, and execution even near approaching high performance audio.
You know it takes more than just saying bs to make it true. What you’re saying is a feeble attempt to fool folks who don’t understand the data to believe what you say is true. However most people who are into audio understand subjective feedback. And the subjective feedback of today’s class D compared to today’s class a, a/b and tubes, tells us that today’s class D is hands down superior.
When both the objective data and subjective client feedback is superior, this means the product is hands down superior. Bar none.
With any amplifier its all about the distortion: what it makes and what it doesn't make.
The ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality unless the amp is outright clipping.
A THD of 0.002% won't do you a lot of good if its all higher ordered harmonics. The reason is that the ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure; if the amp is making higher ordered harmonics it will sound brighter and harsher than real life.
Negative feedback is well-known to generate higher ordered harmonics while otherwise suppressing distortion. The process is known as bifurcation. See Norman Crowhurst; this fact has been known for well over 60 years.
Class D amps are fundamentally different from regular analog amps (even though they too are analog) in that they rely on switching. This means that the amp has propagation delay instead of the usual phase shift. under such conditions if feedback is applied, there will be distortion added.
IMO/IME, you are better off not using feedback on a class D amp. They already have a low output impedance so even inexpensive output transistors will allow the amp to behave as a voltage source. Without feedback, the main sources of distortion are the encoding scheme and dead time; if proper care is applied in this department the amp may not have particularly low distortion, but it can sound relaxed and detailed similar to a good quality tube amp because the distortion present isn't of a kind to which the ear is particularly sensitive.
Class D reads like interesting. Sadly for Class D affectionados I would never buy one. Who cares? (other than me why? not your problem.) yes, go on, say I am x, y, or z, problem for 'failing' to realize just how amazing, wonderful, and amazing, did I mention amazing and wonderful? Class D amplifiers are. Why isn't it sad all those other kind of amplifier makers just do not understand, and foolishly continue to build amplifier that are not Class D? what a pity.I hope all you Class D amp lovers can forgive us for failing to recognize genius.
miveraaudio"You know it takes more than just saying bs to make it true."
But you are not talking about "Truth" hear you are talking about your own set of "facts" based on your fervent belief, faith, and conviction and some hear do not embrace your "Bible" and understand, recognize, and acknowledge that you're brand of religion is not something acceptable to them and this freedom of thought is something which seems to confound, trouble, and disturb you.
Elizabeth, Maybe, just for kicks, you should try a high powered Class D amp on your Maggies and see what happens. You don't seem to care for class D, but you don't say why. That info might be personal to you, but was just curious about your reasoning.
@clearthink. The data provided in the Icepower 1200AS data sheet is a comprehensive report of well established industry standard measurements. It’s this data that’s used in the world of audio to prove objective performance. Subjective client feedback is a way to gauge how the products are accepted once out in the field. Then we have other metrics like cost, size, weight, efficiency, reliability etc. Today’s class D is hands down the winner in every single one of the above mentioned categories. What more do we need than that?
miveraaudio" Subjective client feedback is a way to gauge how the products are accepted once out in the field."
That is exactly correct but because of your closely held, cherished, and fervent convictions you can not allow these subjective feedbacks to prevent, discourage, or limit you’re proselytizing, preaching, and pontificating about you’re brand of audio religion which you cloak in the veneer of "science," truth, and objective reality.
It is obvious that you are new here and so I will just say in a friendly, cordial, non-confrontational way that this is not you're church, synagogue or pulpit.
Elizabeth, Maybe, just for kicks, you should try a high powered Class
D amp on your Maggies and see what happens.
Please do, then I wouldn't have to. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of people switching over to class D. Most of the hype seems to be coming from the manufacturers only.
Thx guys for help :) Refer to the discussion, as a class D lover, I don’t have any knowledge to engage in technical facts! But give me some names in class A or A/B that produce same amount of power as middle range class D amps in the same price range ! I had 2 famous class A amps and tested them against class D in the same set up that costs much much less and class D was a winner! Refer to HIFI magazine reviews, sadly my experience always does not agree with them and I think they are not honest to the end consumers so try not to love/hate something base on their advertising pamphlets;)
No problem. Someone buy a really good Class D amp, and then ship it to me, free. No problem on my part. I would certainly plug it in and see. Oh, you want me to BUY one.. Oh.. Yeah. OK.. On my to do list, down just below 'Kissing the Blarney Stone' at 2,837,103 from the # one on my list.. which is, as usual, listen to some music..If I live to be 284 years old.. I will definitely get to it.
What I’m contributing here is industry standard data, combined with subjective client feedback. This is the kind of stuff that is encouraged to be discussed on audio forums. What you are contributing here is personal attacks, that have nothing to do with industry standard data, or client feedback. And is exactly the type of commentary that is discouraged on audio forums. Perhaps you have forgotten about proper forum conduct after all your years of experience?
miveraaudio "What you are contributing here is a personal attacks... exactly the type of commentary that is discouraged...Perhaps you have forgotten about proper forum conduct after all your years of experience?"
I understand that you are hurt that I do not accept, embrace, or promote you're personal brand of religion but that is really not my issue if you are offended, insulted, or injured by my honest, straightforward, independent reasoning then I suggest you turn to your closely held, fervent, cherished beliefs for solace.
Hah, talk about the pot calling the kettle ... Seems some folks love to whine they feel they have been insulted or just shown the error of their ways, discussing how bad it is to insult others, then go straight for the insults themselves. usually a sign they have already lost the battle, and are now fuming how unfair it is, since they are certain they are 100% right. After all, the MUST be right, since they think so. Right?
No insults from me. Stating facts is not insulting. If someone feels insulted from factual data then this is their own issue inside their own heads. Dealing with that is above and beyond the subject matter that should be discussed on an audio forum.
I have read and respect your negative opinion of class D, by being sooooo negative without really giving a reason makes you seem somewhat worse than an over enthusiastic Class D lover.
Sorry just my opinion on how your comments read to me.
miveraaudiom"No insults from me. Stating facts is not insulting...Perhaps you should invest in a Delorean, and travel back in time to the mid 70's where your current level of knowledge is up to date"
Well that sounds like an initiative, effort, and attempt at insult from which I take no offense, umbrage, or exception because I realize you are consumed with religious fervor as a result of you're closely held, cherished, beliefs and faith based on your personal perception of Truth.
Perhaps I should be a bit more clear about the data I've collected over the last 4 years regarding today's class D technology.
Back in 2015, after several months of tweaking an NC-500 based amp, I decided to publicly disclose an input buffer design using discrete class A opamps that are rollable to adapt the amp to personal taste and system synergy. the first to adopt this buffer design was Colin at Nord. Colin went on to sell well over a million dollars worth of amplifiers using this buffer design. Massive resource here on how that went on the most successful thread in Audioshark history:
Currently 5-6 companies world wide are using this buffer design in their commercial NC-500 based amps. And I estimate around 2.5 million USD in combined sales between them all. And close to 100% positive feedback. This is some substantial data collected here!
Next up I went on to selling over 200 Icepower 1200AS amplifiers, and so far the feedback has been the best that I've seen yet from any new amplifier technology.
My next phase is moving into digital input class d technology. And it's by far the most exciting yet!
In few years, class D will be the superior technology ( though it already being in HT) and people will read posts like this and applaud for pioneer fans and get cancer by comments written by unbelievers :)
I like the Nelson Pass idea of adding a little mojo back into the soup with his 2nd harmonic generator. Distortion yes, but musical seemingly, and the idea goes a long way toward helping people get why tubes sound more musical or lifelike than other designs. I like the sound of my single ended tube amp over any SS A/B or D amp I've heard, and although its limitations keep me in the efficient speaker camp I simply don't care...class D is an obvious choice for pro stuff in, for example, phased array lightweight powered speaker systems that are at live shows everywhere, but clearly I prefer tubes for serious musical enjoyment. Perhaps designers should stick a switchable 2nd harmonic gizmo in their amps to allow listeners to decide what's what. Note that I own an Ampeg class D bass amp, but I've also used a gigantic Ampeg SVT tube head (and other various bass amps over many years) and man...although it's a beast, the SVT does sound MUCH better.
It's becoming clear that very few folks around here have experience with today's class D. And it's understandable why. It hasn't made it into any big brand commercial products yet. The reason why is because it takes a couple years for new technology to make it into big brand products, because they have loads of inventory to burn through first. This is where the little guys have a massive advantage. For example within 1 week of first auditioning the 1200AS module, I already had 66 amplifiers sold.
The 1200AS modules will be going in many big brand commercial amps soon. Expect to see reviews in Stereophile within a year or 2. Only these amps will need to sell for 3-4 times more than the direct sellers can do it for due to inefficiencies in the supply chain.
Just I noticed Hypex 1200 is coming with a reasonable price to the market. In the time I bought mine, there were available only in very high end of class D amps. @miveraaudio 1200AS IcePower is the same module that W4S and Bell Canto use in their mono blocks ?
Mivera, Pass an amp around to a few people here so we can get experience with today's class D. I'd be happy to pay shipping to the next guy. This is the
W4S is claiming to use Iceedge technology in their ST-750LE amplifier for $1750. However the specs are nowhere near the 1200AS module, and the 1200AS module is the only Iceedge based amp Icepower has produced yet. So it’s a bit odd.
Bel Canto uses Hypex NC-500 modules combined with a basic IC opamp based buffer stage in the Ref600M. I haven’t seen any products from them using the 1200AS.
So far to my knowledge, the only 1200AS based amps available today are from small direct sellers. No big brands. The biggest brand selling them is Nord.
@Ketchup: I’m no longer selling 1200AS based amps. You’ll need to talk to one of the manufacturers who are.
No OEM's are not allowed to sell kits based on Icepower amp modules. I sold 20 kits at first, but then I found out about this policy and stopped.
The power supply is integrated into the board. It's a complete self contained unit. Just apply power and connect speakers.
Regarding Pascal, they haven't improved upon their technology since 2011-2012. They have made new modules with better efficiency, but none of them feature anything new that increases the sound quality. And they haven't made any claims about increased sound quality with this new lineup. The last time I tried an amp from them it was the M-PRO2, and I felt at the time that even my early generation NC-500 based build sounded better.
Yes because I sold the first 100 1200AS based amps that hit the market and set the price bar for the industry on amps based on that module. The amplifier manufacturers who are selling both 1200As and Hypex Ncore based amps would rather sell you the Hypex based amps for obvious reasons.
Agree! Ncore mades more profit but I am tempting to get one IcePower soon and compare to Ncore! A silly question, why famous brands like NAD, Marantz, Thechnics,... invested on Ncore not IcePower?
wow.. I am the FAVORITE. Favorite anything is GREAT. Woo Hoo. Favorite hypocrite. Do I get a trophy? Pleeeese? Maybe a little one I can put on my stereo??? Pleeese?
Because you know I'm all about that spec, 'Bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec Because you know I'm all about that spec, 'Bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec (spec) I'm all about that, all about that spec I'm all about that, all about that spec I'm all about that spec, no treble We gon' take it to a whole another level We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know it's photoshoped We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know…
Like I mentioned earlier, big companies can’t just instantly deplete all of the current inventory located at their warehouses, distributors and dealers. And when they invest money into production, and advertising of a particular product, they want their investment to return profits before moving onto the next investment. So it takes a couple of years for new technology to make it into the products sold by brands that sell through the distributor/dealer model. It has nothing to do with them not liking the technology. I can assure you that the market will be flooded with Iceedge based amps within a couple of years. They also sell the Iceedge IC’s on their own to manufacturers big and knowledgeable enough to build their own scratch made amps from them. This gives them a massive advantage over Hypex, as you have no choice but to buy full modules to adopt their technology.
Ncore OEM modules have been available for 8 years now. The Iceedge 1200AS and the Iceedge IC's have only been available for 16 months now. It's going to take more time for everyone to adopt.
miveraaudio" I sold the first 100 1200AS based amps that hit the market and set the price bar for the industry on amps based on that module."
So it was obviously the profit, greed, and personal notoriety that prompted you're conversion to the Class D church, religion, and faith. But this "church" that you have joined hear known as "Audiogon" is a non-denominational "church" so you will find that not all hear will accept you're proselytizing or you're
closely held, cherished, beliefs and faith.
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