Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
miveraaudiot’s a greedy thing when you sell products for very low profit margins?" No it is greedy when you conceal your profit driven motive behind a religion of you're own invention where you have authored its bible and attempt to insult, degrade, and silence those who question you're proselytizing and faith-based interpretation of real world data, experience, and information. |
Nothing is being concealed with me. I’ve been extremely open about everything I’ve discussed. When I read the guidelines of this forum here’s what it says: Goals of these discussions
-You will not post content that is abusive or defames another member of The Service Which is all you have contributed so far to the discussion. I'm about done with exchanges with you now. So have fun trolling by yourself. |
1200AS amps that are being sold are less expensive because they have less money in them and are easier to build. Mike had nothing to do with the pricing of these amps. If one manufacturer would charge twice as much for their 1200 based amps then another one could charge half and get literally ALL the business. Mike just likes to beat his chest and claim he has moved mountains. The 1200 amps do not measure better than the best class A or A/B amps. They do not make as good of square waves, they have switching noise on all signals. They are not better than all class A or A/B amps. And this is from a guy that thinks the 1200 module with mods and run mono sounds incredible. I am hoping my amp will compete with most anything under $10,000 or even more. But worlds best? No way. Class A already dead? No way. Better measurements? No way. Wherever Mike goes is a fight. He has been kicked off several forums and made a mess on his forum on Audiocircle. He states things so righteously that anyone with a differing opinion wants to fight him back. A lot of threads where he participates get deleted....including most of his threads on his now gone Audiocircle forum circle. He is really smart. However, he is his own worst enemy. His behavior creates people who do not like him (some outright hate him)........so he limits his income and his ability to make a difference in the world. I like Mike. I find him funny. You know, like one of those neurotic characters on a tv sitcom. Of course, the same character gets tiring. I hope he grows up. There is half truth in what he says.....the module (even stock and a single stereo) has beaten all kinds of class D, A/B and A amps. Don’t sell this baby short. I offer a 30 day in house trial and I will pay the shipping to you if you send it back....you only pay for return shipping. This would be the same as having a tour....the only difference is you get to keep it for 30 days and have some money deposited by the manufacturer. Class D is maturing. It is not what some think here. My 1200 amp is really, really great. However, it is not the holy grail and will be surpassed, even at its price point within a couple of years. |
Sorry Ric but the 1200AS based amps that are being sold on the market today by manufacturers who are selling both Hypex and 1200AS based amps are the lowest profit margin products in their lineup. They aren’t just using a linear BOM based markup that’s identical on all of their amps. They are selling each product for the most they figure they can get away with selling them at. And where is this measured data that is showing you switching noise on all frequencies with the 1200AS? The only data you have seen on this module is in the data sheet. And it certainly doesn’t show any there. As for the rest of your personal attack, it also falls under the prohibited content in the guidelines. |
Mike, If you had a scope and looked at any waveform coming out of the amp you will see the 500K switching noise riding along. ALL class D amps have this. Is it audible.....maybe not....does it look gross. yes. You think everything is an attack, that is your problem. I was just describing (very fairly) your behavior (past and present). I mean you no harm. I hope you can take the feedback and grow up. If not, then wherever you go the same story will ensue. You cannot keep doing the same behavior and expect different results. |
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Specs, measurements and such done right provide useful clues to what to expect from a product only. They help people make informed decisions. But as is always the case, one never knows what something actually sounds like until they give it a try. So glad I did that a few years back with Class D. It helped me get to my happy place in hifi much sooner rather than later. Nowadays, I read these discussions but spend as much of my spare time as I can just enjoying the music, now more than ever. |
I follow you around.......yes, Mike I am a stalker. Yes, your threads get a lot of traffic (because of the drama...hey, who doesn't want to watch a good fight?)......till they are deleted. And how has that benefited me? I don't lie. I heard a pair of your amps with the best jacks and wire and run mono with $225 fuses.....I never said they were SE....they are your one quarter inch thick versions. Now, you will state that your one half inch thick versions sound way better so my A/B is nonsense. My chassis is one eight inch thick......he he. My "hacked science project" is just your jealousy for not being able to make the modules sound better. So, now you are attacking........you see, it is a never ending spiral with you. You cannot let go. Everything is an attack to you, so you keep swinging your sword. I will not respond to anything more you say as I have stated my truth and it does not need to be repeated. I hope the thread continues as it is an important view to discuss. I bless you and wish you happiness and peace. |
I deleted my own threads on AC. I decided I was done with supporting an admin who would bend the rules for some and not others. If you read the Alexa stats, the value of Audiocircle went up by $40000 within a month after I opened my circle. After I left it went down $60000 in value within 3 months. I was putting around an extra $2000 a month in advertising income in the pocket of the admin, and he still made the choice to bend the rules for the trolls. So I wiped out my content, because I didn't want him to continue profiting off of my time and energy I put in. And sorry Ric I’m certainly not jealous of your hacked, warranty voiding science project. I’ve moved on from the 1200AS and have left the modules for all you wolves to fight over. My next project will be far superior, and much much more difficult for you guys to copy. So good luck! :) |
Refer to the discussion, as a class D lover, I don’t have any knowledge to engage in technical facts! But give me some names in class A or A/B that produce same amount of power as middle range class D amps in the same price range !IME, the power of class D amps has always sounded weaker than lesser- specified class A and AB amps. This was also the case in the mobile audio world. One of my first jobs out of high school was installing mobile audio systems. We always had to turn the gain way up on any class D amps to get them to sound anywhere near as powerful as a similar-spec AB amp. Even then, the sound was nearly always thin in comparison. It's funny (or maybe it's sad), even two decades ago, the manufacturers of those class D amps made similar claims to some in this thread - that their amps had finally broken the class D mold. However, all of us on the installer side quickly realized it was all puff. I worked for a large shop with multiple techs and not a single one chose class D for their own vehicles. We'd only sell them if the customer insisted on a small amp and/or had a very limited budget. Unlike the current home audio market, the cost savings of manufacturing cheap chip amps was mostly passed along to the end-user in that industry. A little over a year ago, I compared a Parasound H-int (240 watts/ch into 4 ohms) with a dealer's Devialet monoblocks that were rated at something over 1000 watts/channel. This was driving a pair of Maggie 1.7s to rather high SPLs. The Devialets, despite being some of the best class D I've encountered, sounded less ballsy than the Parasound. When I owned the 350 watts/ch Rogue Pharaoh (Hypex UCD/ tube hybrid) it sounded much less powerful than my 85watts/ch Yamaha. And as previously mentioned, the Yamaha blew it away in terms of bass extension - by what sounded like a whole octave. This is a pattern I've noticed for at least 2 decades now. For whatever the reason, watt for watt, class D power sounds weaker in real use. It reminds me of how Japanese horsepower is often cited in car mags as feeling weaker than German power (well, that's one's easy to figure - it's really a difference in torque). I have no personal beef with the topology. I truly hope that it will someday surpass the others in SQ, as I'm all about saving energy where practical. Unfortunately, all the ones I've encountered that a mere mortal can afford were still a long way off. |
Attention all class D fans! The opposition has an extremely weak case wouldn't you say??Yet you won't address the fact that Bruno Putzey, who created NCore - regarded as one of the very best class D designs, stated that the only advantage of the topology is efficiency. He even emphasizes that notion by saying, "I can't repeat that often enough." Here's the link for reference: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d Read it a second time if necessary. Seems to me that making a good-sounding class D amp is analogous to taking a dump truck and trying to make it handle like a Porsche. Me, I'd rather just get the Porsche in the first place. |
I guess you don’t understand that with efficiency comes a plethora of other advantages: 1: Size 2: Cost 3: lower energy consumption 4: Lower heat 5: Less EMI (conducted and radiated) And due to the above advantages, possibilities open up the simply aren’t possible with conventional class A amps. Such as 1: Tight integration with DSP and DAC on same board to eliminate extensive sound quality losses from outboard DAC’s, cables, connections, preamps, buffer stages, output stages etc. 2: We can now fit absolute SOTA cool running DSP/DAC/Amp combos right in speakers to eliminate passive crossovers and speaker cables. The amp DSP can be custom tuned for each driver individually, to optimize for distortion, over-excursion, and saturation. 3: We can eliminate having to have separate enclosures for each component. And the costs involved with paying for multiple enclosures. While at the same time drastically shortening the signal path, and optimizing each sub-section to work together in absolute harmony. The list goes on but that’s a good start. |
In my own personal experience, and to my own personal tastes in sound, the most disappointing amp I've ever owned was Class D - a Peachtree Nova150. Consistent with what Art Dudley later wrote about the Nova300 - it was on the dry side with grainy treble...at least to my ears. The amp has been long gone and I've been fully immersed in the much sweeter sound of Class AB tubes. |
I think this thread is about today's class D. Why don't we talk about early 70's SS amps before the technology matured on class A/B amp threads? Or tube amps from the 30's before they matured on tube amp threads? Class D has now matured. So lets discuss mature class D. If you have not experienced mature class D yet, then you have nothing useful to contribute to around here. |
@miveraaudio My comment was about today's class D with respect to the Nova150. It is currently what Peachtree markets as "First of a New Generation". https://www.peachtreeaudio.com/nova150-amplifier-with-dac.html My experience with this amp was from 2017. Hardly the 1930s. lol |
@three easy payments....I agree with your assessment of the Nova....in my room sounded so so. Took it to a friends in a better room with better source. Completley different amp sounded great. Why is it when it comes to other amp topologies audio nuts will throw everything in the book at their systems to try and get it to sound good? Different brand of amp, more expensive cables, power conditioners, fuses, magic goo, tubes, you name it. They almost never blame the topology. Yet they listen to one or even a few Class d amps they don’t like and immediatley dismiss them as all being bad. |
I’ve heard many class D amps that I didn’t like. In fact the only class D amps I do like out of hundreds of different class D amps available are: 1: Hypex NC500 & NC1200 (must have well implemented buffer stage, and ultra clean power for modulator and buffer. Very few do. In fact none commercially available today are fully optimized) 2: Icepower Iceedge (only model currently with Iceedge technology is the 1200AS) 3: The TI TPA series of class D ASIC’s. (I’ve only heard the TPA3251 and TPA3255. both excellent if well implemented) Everything else has been mediocre. For example Hypex UCD, Pascal, Anaview, ICCx based Icepower amps. |
Never liked any Class D no matter how hard people sell them. Kharma, Spectron, 47 Labs, Rowland ... all disappointment in my ownership experience. If the big names don't delight, not going to expect much in other brands. But the caveat is Class D vs Digital amp. Can't tell nor care the design difference. Don't excite me as much as a good tube amp. Don't need to go into SS vs Hybrid vs Tube debate. It's all a matter of preference and compromise. If you are a trained musician, however, you're likely hooked by the tube amps and could never go back. |
I guess you don’t understand that with efficiency comes a plethora of other advantages:Cost. Well, that’s certainly true: cost reduction for the manufacturers who are simply reaping the benefit in profit margins. Yup, they can put $400 worth of parts and labor into a 15lb amp and charge many thousands. If these cost savings were being passed along to the end-user then I’d agree. Lower energy consumption, yeah, that’s basically what one would infer from the term "efficiency." Where’s Capatain Obvious when you need him? Lower heat: well, some folks like the extra heat of their class A amps in the winter. Unless I’m shoehorning an amp into an Ikea cube, heat is a total non-issue. Less EMI with placing the DAC inside the box??? Weird. |
If anyone wants to try a cheap class D amp that will give $2000+ class A/B amps a run for the money for only $150 try this: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TPA3255EVM/296-46782-ND/7219409 |
@bsimpson If you are a trained musician, however, you're likely hooked by the tube amps and could never go back. I know in my case that's a huge part of it. The tube sound is my comfort food having grown up playing guitar through Fender Twins and MesaBoogies, it's what my ear is drawn to now. It's not right or wrong, it's 100% preference. That tubey goodness simply nurtures my soul. |
When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers. I guess I’m just more into the sound of music than the sound of electronics. a lot of musicians who have been around loud sounds for decades can't hear good enough to pick up on that. Too much hearing damage. |
S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? |
@helomech you are spreading false statements base on ur feeling not facts! The Devialet as I remember is not a pure class D and has their own design! For higher power rates you must pay fortune but there are other class D with good specs and good sound quality that are affordable! Hypex UCD is older technology but still works perfect in HT and subwoofers! about the brands, I can give you at least 10 models built base on class A or A/B that are gurbage but that doesn’t mean all class A or A/B are bad! people here are very sensitive to brand names so I tried to not mention anyone in this discussion but you, class D haters, wouldn’t hesitate to share your bad experiences with specific details to win a argument! When big brands start to use class D and spend millions and millions to advertise it, all you haters will vanish like vampires by sunshine;) |
I've just been listening music, here it almost 1 am. I really dont know how a multi thousands dollars class A amp sounds (my last class A 300B tube amp costs just about 5k plus upgraded tubes) and neither I know how a 1200AS module class D amp sounds, but I've just got an almost religious experience. I cannot believe the sound I've just been listening a moment ago. Sweet, delicate, deep, toneful, full bodied, layered, dynamic... Just incredible. I repeat, I honestly dont know how a 50k class A amp could sound, but I cannot figure out how it could be better than this. It made me cry of emotion twice. My system is powered by a Nord class D stereo amp (dual mono), Rev D board with Sparkos Op Amps, and I couldnt be happier. |
The market share the luddites comprise of is extremely small and shrinking daily. It’s sometime hard to realize this if you only use audio forums to gauge the state of todays high end audio. Because the vocal minority like to make their opinions heard. If you want to know the real state of todays audio, talk to the worlds best audio ASIC engineers. The work they’re doing is the future. Henry Ford once said "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses". The people he was referring to is the luddites. They are still as prevalent today as the have been for centuries. |
["Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?"] Because amplifying speakers is tripy. I use different iterations of all three and none can do everything the others do which becomes especially poignant when amplifying electric and double Bass. Just bought a Zwilling 38405 wide chefs knife despite the versatility of my thirty-two year old Swiss Army knife. Obviously, they're both better than one another. |
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I don’t think being old make you regid for new changes! I saw in class D amps also, some users bashing new designs/models and show some strange zealous behavior toward specific models. I guess most of class D amp designers are member here but scare to talk because of PC. Btw I like your binary attitude toward amp design but most don’t, maybe because of your business interest! |
Clearthink Have you heard any class D amplifiers in 2019 ? Do you personally know every member of Audiogon ? Are you religious ? I for one am a member of Audiogon and i 100% agree with miveraudio regarding everything he/she is saying regarding 2019 class D amplifiers, I own class D monos with Hypex NC500 and will honestly say it sounds amazing, it does not lack in any area of sound quality and only costs 2k. My previous amplifiers were Edge NL Reference which are the same price as my 2 bedroom flat in the UK, unfortunetly their value decreased and i lost money, my flat since purchasing has gone up 50k, Do you not get the point Class D owners are making regarding sound quality and low running costs and low purchase prices.? If these class D amplifiers were sounding this good 10 years ago, i would not of chosen my Edge NL Reference, i would of bought a Class D. Before purchasing my Edge amps 10 years ago, i auditioned various other amplifiers, Valve, SS, VT and Class D, but the Edge amps in my system were best, now in 2019 at 2k i have what i consider are as good as, or maybe better than, my Edge amps. |
@eliz, I appreciate your apprehension regarding class D, as there are so many versions ones head spins meaning mistakes are likely to be made, That, and maggies are current/power hungry speakers About 5 years ago I had Maggie 3.5Rs. Never getting what I thought they were capable of, I decided to biamp with a W4S MC 250/500 (multichannel amp @ 250/500wpc). These were older modules that never floated my boat, so I bought a Parasound A 23 for the ribbons, butit ran so hot even at idle that I knew eventually parts would break down, and it added ~ $30/mo to my electric bill. No bueno! My room is very large requiring a lot of power. I finally sold the MC 250/500, the A23 and the maggies after blowing 4 ribbons and tiring of their room dominating size which blocked my 7 x 13 front window view of my front yard I replaced the maggies with 95dB Emerald Physics KC IIs, which are also open baffle, but less than 4ft tall, yet they throw a similar sound stage, but unlike the 3.5s the crossover to the tweeter is seamless I bought 2 EP 100.2SEs class D amps with hq fuses .These amps didn’t do it for me, but in retrospect, it is quite possible it was an IC issue. Next up was the Audio Alchemy DPA-1 stereo amp, which is/was a an excellent amp, but not enough power in my room. I replaced it with 2 PS Audio M700s and am very very happy. They offer an in home trial hth |
Honestly, we get the message you new A’gon class D proponents have chosen to try to beat into our heads over the last couple of weeks. Here is what you should know. We really do have a group of participants on A’gon that have interacted, for better and for worse, for a long time. And you all have not been part of it. So let me tell you directly that if Ralph (Atmasphere) told us that he thinks he has a new class D implementation that is better than anything else, a whole lot of us would sit up and want to try it. Other than that, we will all try class D when and if we feel like it. |
“Have you heard any class D amplifiers in 2019 ?” @select-hifi, What so groundbreaking about Class D in 2019? Your enthusiasm seems to be driven by the low cost of Class D amps. How is your $2K amp stack against Mola Mola Kaluga amp? Did you compare your current amp with any other Class D amp? Class D offers decent low cost alternative but it will never overtake or replace SS VT/Valves amps. I am happy to see Class D co-exist with SS and Valve amps and continues to improve in years to come. |
