My current amp is nine years old. I like it. I see no reason to go buy another brand of amp since mine sounds just fine. IF for some crazy reason I bought another amplifier. it would most likely be the same brand as my current one. Call me conservative. To me, buying an unknown Class D amp would be like asking me to jump off a cliff. Rave reviews mean nothing....
Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
285 responses
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The music quality coming from an audio system is the results of too many factors apart choice of amp. and other components to be reduce to an only one choice link in the complete chain of factors... There is no amplifier that solve the problem of hi-fi quality by himself...The samething can be said about any components...There is not one crystals of snow identical to another one...There is not one audio system that does sound the same,even with the same basic components,because of the multiple others factors in addition to the amp. and dac or speakers and cables, turntables etc... |
@mahgister: This is an issue few audiophile get. They often look for amps that hide the true sound of their source gear. When they should be getting better source gear instead. They chase their tails for years trying to fix problems. But unless you know the source of the problem, it’s hard to fix. They’ll mix a bright component with a soft component to to get that perfect "synergy". When they should just have good sounding source gear, and amps that transparently amplify. As a manufacturer, the more variables that can be taken out of a system, the higher the probability is of the end user achieving the best sound. DSP is the modern way of voicing to speakers, taste and room acoustics. It’s also free when it comes standard with the gear. and it has no limits in flexibility. |
seriously guys, below is the mic 🎤 drop from Bruno Putzey, the creator of Hypex Ncore. miveraaudio, why don’t we see Class D preamps in hifi? 😂 S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? |
Yes as I said before, buy a $55000 Soulution, and you can achieve a similar result to a $1000 Icepower 1200AS based amp. With a substantial gain of weight and heat. The small amount of gain required in preamps don’t require class d technology. Opamps the size of a couple grains of rice can already achieve enough gain for preamp use. |
Class D is a trade off to gain efficiency, which isn’t needed in lower power situations. Only a moron would buy a Class D hifi preamp. The first watt is what counts most and that is where Class D cant compete with solid state Class A. Adding lots of feedback, crossover distortion, switching noise, output filtering, transistor distortion (even trace amounts) destroys the first watt. |
Big Amen to your comment..... ”DSP is the modern way of voicing to speakers, taste and room acoustics. It’s also free when it comes standard with the gear. and it has no limits in flexibility.” My background is in innovation and the change that has already come will be hard for many to embrace and believe...... for a season. |
@Seanheis1: Sounds like you’re still living in the late 90’s, early 2000’s. Check out the calendar. It's 2019 now. Today’s best class D like the Icepower 1200AS have several times less distortion in the 1st watt than even the Pass 1st watt class A amps. Feel free to compare in the data sheet: https://icepower.dk/download/5748/ @grannyring Only for a generation that comprises of less than 0.1% of the market, and shrinking daily. Although they feel their opinion matters more than the other 99.9%. |
Boys why do you not all agree to disagree, if people want to rant on about their yesteryear amplifiers let them, SS amplifiers are getting so damn expensive they are becoming way out of reach of most and due to the fact manufacturers are selling less of them the asking prices are going up threw the roof, If you want to buy the best sounding amplifiers of 2019 at realistic prices choose a class D amplifier because they sound as good as any higher priced SS, and are much cheaper to run, its not rocket science. You cant blame the messenger if your front end is not up to it anymore, maybe if you spent less on your SS amplifier, you could address your front end problem and achieve better sound at a still overall lower price, come on can you really justify spending /20k/30k/40k/50k on a SS amplifier when there are 10/20 times cheaper and better sounding alternatives.(class D) Come on everyone use some common sense, lets all move on to newer and better things, support class D the now and future of state of the art amplifiers, better sound, better prices, cheaper running costs, its not rocket science. |
No need for class D in headphone amps either. Extreme fidelity is already available from tiny 3.5x3.5mm IC's. And they have 1.5w output in that size. Smaller yet if 1.5w isn't needed. I think that's small enough. https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TPA6120A2RGYT/296-38029-1-ND/4965625 |
@select-hifi: You got that right. Great quote from my forum: "On Sunday I only get to listen 1 system .it have no problem pushing revel sablon ,the guy couldn’t tell the difference between pass lab 250.8 and Mivera amp.The amp sound better and after a week i have so far.plus i just add 2 Furutech fuses to the amp.the bass improve on the lower end." https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impre... |
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I think the fact that for around $1K can get you the level of sound that’s only possible from $20K+ class A or A/B amps, also gives them an advantage.Nonsense. This is the sort of thing class D owners tell themselves so they can sleep well at night when they spent $1K on an amp that’s the same as a $50 Chi-Fi piece. I’ve heard $30K class D monoblock amps that were trumped in every SQ metric by a $2.5K class AB integrated. I’ve owned the $3.5K Rogue Pharaoh which was embarrassed by my $400 Yamaha A-S500 in many regards, especially the bass extension. I’ve heard class D amps from Bel Canto, NAD, Peachtree, Devialet, PS Audio, Rogue and many others. Not one came remotely close to a good tube or class A amp. Sure, they can be detailed, but dollar for dollar, that’s the full extent of their list of strengths. I’m all for green energy. If class D amps actually sounded good, I’d certainly use them. Unfortunately, every single one I’ve encountered sounded as though the 200 to 500Hz range had been dropped 3+ db through an equalizer. Their sound never has "meat on the bones." Couple that with an overall lack of musicality and you have the signature class D sound. For the typical $1K class D amp, add "etched" highs to that description. Funny, even the designer of Ncore said their only advantage is efficiency, yet the zealots persist with claiming class D is all-around superior. |
I’ve mentioned several times already in this thread that the new Iceedge technology in the Icepower 1200AS is the best of today’s class D. And I say this after being a dyed in the wool Hypex fan for over 10 years prior. Icepower spent over 10 years and millions of dollars working on this technology. So going to Iceedge from their previous circa 2004 IccX technology all of their other amp modules use, represents a 13 year leap. Not just a 1-2 year leap. This is why so many clients of mine have tossed their $10000+ class A and A/B amps for pennies on the dollar, and replaced with Icepower 1200AS based amps. More info available here: https://icepower.dk/download/1621/ It's also why Mivera Audio amps have the industry's highest resale value. |
Just found this post: "I've heard my Tidal speakers with $100,000 worth of amplification and the ridiculously inexpensive AS1200 is definitely not playing out of its league." https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/20-year-old-amplifiers-compared-to-2017/post?highlight=Mivera... |
@Kosst: You’ll need to read the datasheets to find that info. Without reading the datasheets, you won’t see this information. Great example here: https://icepower.dk/download/5748/ It’s far more comprehensive than what you’ll find from any class A or A/B manufacturer. So don’t get confused. Hmmmm... Share some mediocre class A/B amps with 127db dynamic range please. |
Well every metric of industry standard measurements are absolutely impeccable on the 1200AS module. If that's not good enough the subjective impressions are even better: https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impre... What more do you need? |
Checkout Proton46’s system. Think that’s transparent enough to judge if an amp is good or not? As a former distributor of Accuton drivers I think it is. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/490 The amp on the bottom left contains an Icepower 1200AS amp module. It replaced a $25000 Danish Class A amp. And that was my lowest end version. |
All on 4-18-18? I guess you need to learn how to use today's computers as well as learn about today's best amps. These reviews are spread out over 9 months. I had another 41 reviews on Audiocircle. But they all got binned. I sold over 200 amps in 1 year, so 70 or so reviews is pretty decent. I never paid a penny on advertising. I suppose All pictures of my amps in different listening rooms are all photoshopped as well hey? |
Mr Ric, ricevs I know that you are a huge fan of using cardboard as a vibration control mechanism, will that be used in your new amps?? and will that pass any of my local insurance codes, I would not want to lose my house because of your grandiose tweek ideas, or are your trying to be professional now?? Cheers |
The oppisition? Are you a bot? How are you allowed to advertise on these threads? No one I know out of all my audio friends owns class d. Why? because they don't sound as good, or we would all own them. I have been in the industry in sales and manufacturing for most of my adult life and I know what I am talking about. I have personally had first hand experience with most of the biggest and best the audio industry has to offer, but of course the amp you make is better that any of them 😂👍🤔 the only digital amp that has ever impressed me was the Bel Canto Black system, and John Stronzer has far more experience than you designing and building class d amps. |
Highly regarded back in 2001? Or today’s best class D? Today’s best class D is not based on technology from over a decade ago. In fact there's not a single dealer on the planet who is currently selling todays class D. Only available from direct sellers. The dealer sold manufacturers need to blow out their old inventory before introducing this technology. So could still be 1-2 years before you see this in Stereophile. |
Who cares about 127dB dynamic range? Seriously. Especially if the first 2 watts are colored by switching noise distortion, like every single one I've ever seen measurements for is. Sorry. Class D isn't high fidelity. Not even remotely interested in an amp that's belting out .05% switching distortion at 1 watt. |
kosst_amojan Good point regarding .05% switching distortion at 1 watt. If that is the case then what i am hearing with my Class D amps is the best damn distortion i have ever heard. I have sold off my SS Monos and VT stereo, i have now got the money put aside for my new Universal Disc Player, i have purchased new cables equipment supports, which has improved the sound even further, plus i have lots of spare money to buy more music i love collecting first press Japan cds and the mini lps with obi strips love em. Most importantly for me is the improvement in sound quality of my system, when auditioning the class D amp nothing else had been changed in my system, the class D using Hypex NC500 out performed my mega buck SS and VT amplifiers in all areas. Before investing in mega buck SS Valve/VT everybody needs to hear the very latest state of the art class D in their systems and trust their own ears, i am so glad i did. If that is distortion i am hearing call me 100% all in, long live better sounding distortion and the good news is there is promise of even better sound using GaN Devices "times they are a changing". |