The class D technology in the amps you mentioned is over 10 years old. Class D technology has progressed lightyears over the last 10 years. This is kinda like saying I drove a 2008 Toyota Prius and I didn't like it. So a 2019 Tesla is probably no good as well.
Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
285 responses
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Whitestix Well, there are TOO MANY options in the audio universe that it is impossible to know/try I guess even 10% of the options out there, even if you work on a HiFi Shop or are a reviewer. If you are happy with your system, well, enjoy the hell out of it. For me, some few months ago I thought I was never leave 300B tubes and now I cannot believe the sound I get on my system with a "digital" class D amp. Streaming digital music in another universe (music) at the palm of my hand. I still remember me buying cassettes or recording songs on the radio in my youth!! Its a very nice moment to be an audiophile and a music Lover. |
From my perspective, the only good reason to develop those class D and other similar classes that will follow is environmental. On the other hand, the less expensive they become the more people will have hifi, sort of, and that will be bad for the environment. As for the sound, tubes will sound best in the foreseeable future, if done right and matched with done right speakers. Even transistors are not really needed, nor is digital except for archiving until they figure out how to preserve master tapes for thousands of years. |
Well I’m afraid to say you’re behind the times when it comes to the current state of ultra high end audio. Today’s best class D outperforms every other type of amps available. A few years ago I came up with the now widely used concept of using rollable class A discrete opamps to voice the input stage of class D amps to personal taste. This resulted in 1000’s of old school audiophiles dumping class A and tubes for amps such as the Nord one up. But now with advanced DSP integrated into SOTA digital input class D amps, there’s far far more flexibility to voice to taste. Regardless of your personal taste in sound, the next generation of digital input class D amps can be voiced in the digital domain to your exact taste, and room acoustics. You can stop wasting money on cables, preamps, tube buffers etc to voice your gear. The amp can do it all. And far better. And if you get board of the sound, just change the profile rather than dump at a big loss and replace with something different. |
All this debate about amplifiers and systems costing $50k is meaningless as I will never be in that league. That being said I have been on a steady trajectory upwards for 45 yrs from my Sansui 1000a tube and Altec speakers to my new love the Peachtree Nova 300 with its exquisite DAC and incredible soundstage. I've listened to systems, both SS and valves costing 10x as much but I've never heard better than this. |
Class D is like a DAC. They keep getting better as the tech improves, making older generations obsolete. Class A is a much more mature technology, with better often times being different. The best Class A from 30 years ago is better than the best Class D of today. Class D only exists for efficiency. Square waves and pulse width modulation is not hifi. Why bother with a bit perfect source signal if you are just going to chop it up and filter it...leaving behind some of the good with the bad...resulting in a thin hollow sound? |
If this is true share the ad where he’s selling them. I get 6-7 emails a week for more amps but not selling them anymore. And why do my amps always sell for the same or more on the used market than they did new if they’re so bad? Is it typical in high end audio for products to sell for the same or more used than new? Browse for some used class A, A/B or tube amps here on Audiogon and find some that are selling for more used than new. |
I like class D a lot but this...
There's a value system here I don't agree with, and frankly, you can always find some measurement one amp does better or worse than another. Pick any two amps! I do believe the best of Class D is as good as any other amp, but outperform? That is very subjective. My own tastes may be very important to me, but I think it's a little self-centered to put them above yours. Only the listener can really decide that. And that's enough of this thread for me. :) Best, E |
Have any of you followed the journey of WCSS through a myriad of amplifiers, speakers, DAC, cables, etc. over the past couple if years? We are talking serious high end gear. He is not affiliated with any MFG or single type of gear, but rather evaluating some of the best available. Class D is not at the forefront from a listening perspective. There is a reason. Trying to diminish others to make your favorite look better is never a good way to make converts. The inherent bias is obvious and this perspective does not forward your cause. Remember how cassettes were going to make records obsolete? Vinyl is still with us. There is room for all, trumpeting we are best and you are toast is a poor method of supporting what you like, just MHO. |
It all depends on what you consider the role of an amplifier should be in a system. To faithfully amplify the signal it’s fed, or to add euphonic coloration, and amplify the signal it’s fed. If you enjoy the sound of your source gear as it is, then all you should want is an amplifier that faithfully amplifies the signal it’s fed. If you don’t like the sound of your source gear as it is, then you may want to add some colorations to mask the undesirable sound. Today’s best class D amps are not designed to add euphoric colorations. So to really appreciate them, you have to like the sound of your source gear. But the problem comes because so many audiophiles have no idea how their source gear sounds. Because they have only ever listened to it through a coloured amp. So when an uncoloured amp replaces the coloured amp in their system, and they hear for the first time the actual sound of their source gear, some may not like what they hear. But do you think the blame ever goes to the source gear? Very rarely. The amps end up taking the blame for the shortcomings of the source. This is one reason why I have gone away from analog input amplifiers. It’s too easy to get poor sound with a good amplifier. Because you have no control as a manufacturer to choose what the amplifier is fed, once in the hands of the end user. So most manufacturers end up having to sacrifice fidelity, to make up for the crappy source gear many people have. Icepower did a pretty good job at voicing the 1200AS to make it a bit more forgiving than the Ncore amps. But they are still highly resolving amps that are only limited by the source they are fed. |
It’s just not black and white like that. These colorations are purposely built into amplifiers to make them more forgiving. This is a strategy that is constantly done with class D amplifiers as well with different input buffers. Even if it drastically reduces the fidelity. Take the PS Audio Stellar 700 amps for example. The stock 700AS modules they use have a dynamic range of 117db. but after PS Audio put’s their magic "Analog cell" input buffer in front of them, it drops 17db down to 100. Why do they do this? To make it more forgiving with the source gear that will likely get paired with an amp at that price point. Well and also because the 700AS modules aren’t that great. They still use circa 2004 ICCX technology. The point I was making is if your goal is extreme fidelity, it’s easy to achieve for cheap with the latest and best class D. Or you could go for something like an $80000 Solution and achieve it with class A as well. I can assure you if you paired a Solution amp with the cheap DAC’s and preamps most people who criticize class D, listen to class D amps through, they would probably say the Solution sucks as well. The price/performance of class D is so much higher than the rest of the audio gear in most peoples systems these days. So the best class D amps aren’t getting the same input quality as an amp like an $80000 Solution would get. Put an Icepower 1200AS based amp into a $200000 rig and then peoples eyes will open. |
I would like to state i am currently enjoying my music collection using class D with passive pre amp, the combination cost is approx 4500 gbp which i feel with this level of performance is exceptional, i am very happy and have no interest in changing to find out if i can match performance with similar priced SS or valves, obviously great valves are great valves and great SS is great SS but the question is at what prices are they great and can they compete with what i am hearing. Its not just amplifiers i am in the process of buying a DAC, the one i am drawn to is the PS Audio Direct Stream quoting 20 x DSD, on paper that seems extraordinary if i have read that right. |
I owned a hi-end retail company in decades past. I owned a lot of amps (SS & Valve; even a Gain Cell amp) but I looked into the future and started getting on board the class D train, first with W4S monos, then stereo, then their multi-channel, followed by Emerald Physics 100.2SEs + upgraded fuses (IMO they lacked midrange warmth). Next up was Audio Alchemy DPA-1 stereo amp (it is a terrific amp, but not powerful enough for my extra large room) I now have PS Audio M700s (MSRP $3995 the pair!). These are the best amps I have had with the possible exception of a Kinergetics KBA 75 (> 10 years ago), which made the electric meter spin at high rpm. Clearly class A or A/B consume a ton of power and probably internal parts I have no doubt GaN will bring more to the hobby, but for <$4K Im more than happy wth the PSA M700s |
Fyi, I didn't read all the posts, but the Benchmark AHB2 is not class A/B. It is a new design called Class AAA and was developed in conjunction with THX. It outperformed all the class D amps I reviewed. You can see my review of it at dagogo.com I still am using the AHB2 and it is capable of stunning sound quality. I run them in Mono mode and it is glorious. One of the best setups is the Exogal Comet DAC running Schroeder Method ICs (see discussion on the thread that bears my name, and the seminal article regarding Schroeder Method at dagogo.com) direct into the amps and using either the software volume control or the Comet's internal pre. However, dismissing class A or A/B is shortsighted. These amps are also improving over time. It's not like they are frozen and can't compete. That's a stilted perspective, imo. |
mivera, I don't doubt your knowledge of the PS Audio Ice modules age, but the sound is amazing, especially at its price point (music processed through th PSA Stellar GC dac). Wires and cabling mid level WireWorld and a Core Power 1800 PC: and as I stated above, I have owned considerable kit This past weekend I had a friend over who previously heard my system with an Audio Alchemy DPA-1/DDP-1 (sans PS 5) - an excellent class D amp, but underpowered in my very large room, OR, it was unable to grab my Emerald Physics KC IIs (95dB) by the balls, or...? Anyway, we had a rock concert night spinning SRV (Stevie Raye Vaughn), Peter Gabriel Live, and The Pointer Sisters Greatest Hits, all at very high levels. He was amazed at how well the system sounded, and I was blown away. I do not recall ever having such a complete experience Does this mean the M700s are my final class D purchase. Hardly, but, they are an outstanding value FYI, I went to what I thought was your site, but only saw a dac. where are your amps? |
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I think I’ve crossed that bridge. Last 3 amps all Class D and can’t see anything other than that now down the road. Especially good for anyone looking to downsize. Yesterday, The opening track "Ecstasy of Gold" from the Metallica S&M album performed with the San Francisco symphony played and gotta say this all Class D reproduction lived up to it’s name...pure ecstasy and mind blowing... I was there. Great demo album by the way but only if the system is up to the task! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKypYslGEA8 |
In light of all the gushing about how wonderful Class D integrated amps are today I find it curious that none made Stereophile's 2018 Recommended Component list. In fact they make the following notation in the listing:
Editor's Note: There are no Class D integrated amplifiers listed.https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-integrated-amps-receivers |
In light of all the gushing about how wonderful Class D integrated amps are today I find it curious that none made Stereophile’s 2018 Recommended Component list.There are class D integrateds listed. As a matter of fact, there are a few Stereophile Class A class D integrateds listed. The editor’s note is kind of misleading. What it says is that there were no Stereophile Class D integrates listed. Stereophile Class D meaning: Class D Satisfying musical sound, but these components are either of significantly lower fidelity than the best available, or exhibit major compromises in performance-limited dynamic range, for example. Bear in mind that appearance in Class D still means that we recommend this product-it’s possible to put together a musically satisfying system exclusively from Class D components. See here:https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-fall-2018-edition-how-use-listings |
Stereophile ranks products in Class A, B, C, D. Their Class D has nothing to do with amplifier design. I heard the Bel Canto 600's in a system of all components unknown to me, so impossible to judge different contributions, but at the very least they certainly weren't doing anything wrong. Absolute Sound loves that model too. |
S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? BP: Efficiency and therefore the ability to construct amps that are powerful for their size. Only that. Modern Class D amps, in particular mine—ahem—sound good not because they’re Class D, but in spite of it. I can’t repeat that often enough. Left to its own devices, a switching power stage tries to do just about anything except amplify audio. You choose Class D to save energy but it’s all elbow grease after that. Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d#GOIePB6wrxqXZEAj.99 There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. |
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I feel these words from Mivera are so on point that people should read them again, and the fact that audiophiles can purchase these for so little is just a bonus!! It all depends on what you consider the role of an amplifier should be in a system. To faithfully amplify the signal it’s fed, or to add euphonic coloration, and amplify the signal it’s fed. If you enjoy the sound of your source gear as it is, then all you should want is an amplifier that faithfully amplifies the signal it’s fed. If you don’t like the sound of your source gear as it is, then you may want to add some colorations to mask the undesirable sound. Today’s best class D amps are not designed to add euphoric colorations. So to really appreciate them, you have to like the sound of your source gear. Cheers, |
I have owned some nice Class A amps from Parasound, Pass Labs and others. I also like hybrid amps from Monarchy, Blue Circle and Aesthetix. The best audio amplifier solution I have owned however is a digital one box wonder from Lyngdorf. Built in Class D amp, dac, room correction and preamp. While I continue to enjoy building tube amps they sound no better overall than the Lyngdorf. Digital powered dacs and Class D amps can certainly compete with anything made yesterday or today. These represent the future of audio and will continue to bring innovation and better sound. Very exciting really. I will always love tubes and am currently building another tube amp, however my main rig will always have the Lyngdorf or some other version of it in the future. My experience with Class D as designed and implemented by Lyngdorf has been very positive. |
It all depends on what you consider the role of an amplifier should be in a system. To faithfully amplify the signal it’s fed, or to add euphonic coloration, and amplify the signal it’s fed. If you enjoy the sound of your source gear as it is, then all you should want is an amplifier that faithfully amplifies the signal it’s fed. If you don’t like the sound of your source gear as it is, then you may want to add some colorations to mask the undesirable sound. Today’s best class D amps are not designed to add euphoric colorations. So to really appreciate them, you have to like the sound of your source gear.There are many non-colored class AB amps that measure as flat as any class D amp. So then what's the benefit of the class D topology? Answer: efficiency, that is all. |
@sthlm78: Sure you could use a tube input stage. Or a coloured SS input stage like some use. @helomech: I think the fact that for around $1K can get you the level of sound that's only possible from $20K+ class A or A/B amps, also gives them an advantage. Unless cost, weight, and size is no object for you. In that case buy a Soulution 501 and call it a day. |
There is no such thing as uncolored. Everything has a sound. Even one piece of wire 4 inches long has a sound. Every Class D amp using the same module will have a different sound because everything matters. When the NC400 amp module came out a few years ago the Objectivists declared it perfect.....measured perfect, so must be great. I did a mod on them where I changed the polyester output filter caps to modified stacked polypropylene caps. It sounded much better. Here is a link to a thread where this is talked about....notice the resistance from those who have not heard it but "know" that this mod cannot make a difference. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118868.0 So, was the amp "uncolored" before the mod or after it? Neither...just better sounding. Mike (Mr. Mivera) has stated that his more expensive versions of his amp with the thicker chassis and better wire and jacks sound better than his less expensive ones. They will not measure any different. So, which is "uncolored". I A/Bed my new prototypes to Mikes amps and his amps sound very "colored" in comparison. So, does that make my amps "uncolored".......no, just less colored. There are and will be amps down the road that are even less colored than mine. I have made a class A amp that has very little color. However, I do prefer the modded IceEdge. But, I am rebuilding the class A amp so it will be way, way better. Will I still prefer the class D? This game is never ending. There is no perfect anything. What you get with the latest tweaked modules is incredible sound for very little money. Tomorrow, they will be boat anchors.......he he......for a very tiny boat. |
@miveraaudio let me explain my question; I have a Ncore 500 (not from Nord) and feed it by a tube pre amp , it has a analog input board but I want to try something more tubi. I got mine 2 years ago and read somewhere those board with this character tend to be dark and no accurate so I stop searching. Recently I have seen in other post , one manufacturer in USA implemented tubes and I am wondering if It really works or just glowing lamp to attract customers bc as I know there are several layers of filtering in class D that makes it hard to produce warm sound as class A or tube amps. |
Mike, You are starting in with your paranoia thing again. I took my amps to someones house. I don’t lie. I don’t need no stinkin pictures. This is just the first time of many A/Bs versus your amp and many others. Stay tuned for a long ride. Because you cannot do something does not mean someone else cannot. I have been listening, tweaking, modifying and manufacturing high end audio for over 40 years. |
I call BS. Unless you flew across the country, nobody has a pair of my SE amps anywhere near where you live. I could try to hack into the boards and void the warranty as well. But I like Icepower's historical 0.2% failure rate. Besides I've moved onto much better sounding digital input amplifiers. And you don't even need to buy a DAC or preamp! You're just finally catching up to what was current 1.5 years ago. |
@sthlm78: I think Colin at Nord can sell you a pair of his input boards. They're an easy swap. With the Rev D boards, you can choose from over 20 discrete opamps that are compatible. Some are very analog sounding. Drawback is if you want to experiment a lot, it will get expensive. If you want a tubey sound try the Sparko's. They're about as tubey sounding as I've ever heard. |